Contamintaed fuel...dealers way out
05-03-2007, 07:29 AM
#46
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And they wonder why folks just thro up their hands and go buy a Toyota and never look back.
I like my Cummins , but with all these horror stories...who needs it.
Some require a diesel...many don't...just not worth the hassle anymore.
I like my Cummins , but with all these horror stories...who needs it.
Some require a diesel...many don't...just not worth the hassle anymore.
05-03-2007, 08:11 AM
#47
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Wow! A thread brought back to life from September last year, but no final report from its creator, just a bunch of stirred up members.
I would really like to know the outcome of both of those situations. Even the fella with the 06 who replaced the sticks at his expense should still be filing a claim/suit with DC for those costs.
It's really simple folks. When you take any vehicle to any service facility they need to present you with the part that needs to be replaced for your inspection. In the case of the injectors where fuel is the problem a lab report showing that the fuel taken from the tank was somehow "contaminated" should be part of the deal. If the results show good fuel DC replaces the injector, if they show bad fuel they give a repair estimate and a copy of the lab results to the owner so he/she can take it up with the fuel supplier. Oh, if there is bad fuel the owner of the vehicle should then be responsible for the analytical (recourse is the fuel supplier again), but if the fuel is good DC eats the cost of the analysis and resolves the problem under the warranty.
This is a cut and dry deal.... The fella with the 04.5 should head Lary's words, but it sounds as if he is the one aggressively pursuing warranty and the other fella with the 06 just took it from the dealer when he should have been the one pursuing warranty. Backwards!
I would really like to know the outcome of both of those situations. Even the fella with the 06 who replaced the sticks at his expense should still be filing a claim/suit with DC for those costs.
It's really simple folks. When you take any vehicle to any service facility they need to present you with the part that needs to be replaced for your inspection. In the case of the injectors where fuel is the problem a lab report showing that the fuel taken from the tank was somehow "contaminated" should be part of the deal. If the results show good fuel DC replaces the injector, if they show bad fuel they give a repair estimate and a copy of the lab results to the owner so he/she can take it up with the fuel supplier. Oh, if there is bad fuel the owner of the vehicle should then be responsible for the analytical (recourse is the fuel supplier again), but if the fuel is good DC eats the cost of the analysis and resolves the problem under the warranty.
This is a cut and dry deal.... The fella with the 04.5 should head Lary's words, but it sounds as if he is the one aggressively pursuing warranty and the other fella with the 06 just took it from the dealer when he should have been the one pursuing warranty. Backwards!
05-03-2007, 07:47 PM
#49
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well i just found out that the dealer that replaced my injectors had me pay them and then they also collected on warranty . i found this out when i had the wiriing harness replaced the dealer asked if the injectors were replaced under warranty. well they are going to help me nail the other dealer. so you guys need to watch everything that the dealer does.i did not take a fuel sample . i wish i did.
05-03-2007, 10:17 PM
#50
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Contaminated fuel
Hope this helps-
I work for a large corporation that manufacturers diesel fuel filters for many of the major truck/marine diesel engine plants. Diesel fuel by nature is dirty, plain and simple. It requires improved (finer) filtration as the engines continue to produce more power and fewer emissions every year.
Water is the major problem, eventually even the best filters cannot prevent all the water from entering the close tolerance, high pressure fuel components. Water causes corrosion and accelerated wear immediately to the precision components. Additives and asphaltenes in the fuel can "blind" the fuel filter media (paper) and allow water to pass straight through the filter.
Anyway, as an engineer I spent five years working with GM/DMAX with injector wear problems. I saw brand new truck filters returned with less than 1000 miles and the engine had severe fuel system damage due to a large concentration of water. When you see the water in fuel light come on, shut her down and drain the filter and start working towards the tank if alot of water is present. Especially if you just filled up! You may have a pint/quart or even a gallon of water in the fuel tank!
If you end up at a dealer with fuel system problems a good dealer will take a fuel sample from the tank. Next they will check the fuel filter change intervals. This is where having only a dealer change it can save your but because it is recorded and they only use an OEM approved filter. Try to skimp on filter changes and it may cost you. If there is a high concentration of contamination you are on your own.
Loads of water come from the following:
Poor maintenance at the fuel stations (filters not changed on the pumps)
A load of bad fuel.
Fueling after a large storm (water seeps into under ground tanks).
An old tip- Never fuel up if the tanker truck is at the station, as they fill the tanks they stir up all the crap!!!
As with any vehicle every thing is a compromise, the OEM's want one little fuel filter to filter out everything, fit in your hand and only cost $20.00.
The larger the filter (more area) and having a primary and secondary filter is the only way to protect the modern high pressure injection sytems.
Good luck- Silverbullet06
I work for a large corporation that manufacturers diesel fuel filters for many of the major truck/marine diesel engine plants. Diesel fuel by nature is dirty, plain and simple. It requires improved (finer) filtration as the engines continue to produce more power and fewer emissions every year.
Water is the major problem, eventually even the best filters cannot prevent all the water from entering the close tolerance, high pressure fuel components. Water causes corrosion and accelerated wear immediately to the precision components. Additives and asphaltenes in the fuel can "blind" the fuel filter media (paper) and allow water to pass straight through the filter.
Anyway, as an engineer I spent five years working with GM/DMAX with injector wear problems. I saw brand new truck filters returned with less than 1000 miles and the engine had severe fuel system damage due to a large concentration of water. When you see the water in fuel light come on, shut her down and drain the filter and start working towards the tank if alot of water is present. Especially if you just filled up! You may have a pint/quart or even a gallon of water in the fuel tank!
If you end up at a dealer with fuel system problems a good dealer will take a fuel sample from the tank. Next they will check the fuel filter change intervals. This is where having only a dealer change it can save your but because it is recorded and they only use an OEM approved filter. Try to skimp on filter changes and it may cost you. If there is a high concentration of contamination you are on your own.
Loads of water come from the following:
Poor maintenance at the fuel stations (filters not changed on the pumps)
A load of bad fuel.
Fueling after a large storm (water seeps into under ground tanks).
An old tip- Never fuel up if the tanker truck is at the station, as they fill the tanks they stir up all the crap!!!
As with any vehicle every thing is a compromise, the OEM's want one little fuel filter to filter out everything, fit in your hand and only cost $20.00.
The larger the filter (more area) and having a primary and secondary filter is the only way to protect the modern high pressure injection sytems.
Good luck- Silverbullet06
05-04-2007, 06:06 AM
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Hope this helps-
I work for a large corporation that manufacturers diesel fuel filters for many of the major truck/marine diesel engine plants. Diesel fuel by nature is dirty, plain and simple. It requires improved (finer) filtration as the engines continue to produce more power and fewer emissions every year.
Water is the major problem, eventually even the best filters cannot prevent all the water from entering the close tolerance, high pressure fuel components. Water causes corrosion and accelerated wear immediately to the precision components. Additives and asphaltenes in the fuel can "blind" the fuel filter media (paper) and allow water to pass straight through the filter.
Anyway, as an engineer I spent five years working with GM/DMAX with injector wear problems. I saw brand new truck filters returned with less than 1000 miles and the engine had severe fuel system damage due to a large concentration of water. When you see the water in fuel light come on, shut her down and drain the filter and start working towards the tank if alot of water is present. Especially if you just filled up! You may have a pint/quart or even a gallon of water in the fuel tank!
If you end up at a dealer with fuel system problems a good dealer will take a fuel sample from the tank. Next they will check the fuel filter change intervals. This is where having only a dealer change it can save your but because it is recorded and they only use an OEM approved filter. Try to skimp on filter changes and it may cost you. If there is a high concentration of contamination you are on your own.
Loads of water come from the following:
Poor maintenance at the fuel stations (filters not changed on the pumps)
A load of bad fuel.
Fueling after a large storm (water seeps into under ground tanks).
An old tip- Never fuel up if the tanker truck is at the station, as they fill the tanks they stir up all the crap!!!
As with any vehicle every thing is a compromise, the OEM's want one little fuel filter to filter out everything, fit in your hand and only cost $20.00.
The larger the filter (more area) and having a primary and secondary filter is the only way to protect the modern high pressure injection sytems.
Good luck- Silverbullet06
I work for a large corporation that manufacturers diesel fuel filters for many of the major truck/marine diesel engine plants. Diesel fuel by nature is dirty, plain and simple. It requires improved (finer) filtration as the engines continue to produce more power and fewer emissions every year.
Water is the major problem, eventually even the best filters cannot prevent all the water from entering the close tolerance, high pressure fuel components. Water causes corrosion and accelerated wear immediately to the precision components. Additives and asphaltenes in the fuel can "blind" the fuel filter media (paper) and allow water to pass straight through the filter.
Anyway, as an engineer I spent five years working with GM/DMAX with injector wear problems. I saw brand new truck filters returned with less than 1000 miles and the engine had severe fuel system damage due to a large concentration of water. When you see the water in fuel light come on, shut her down and drain the filter and start working towards the tank if alot of water is present. Especially if you just filled up! You may have a pint/quart or even a gallon of water in the fuel tank!
If you end up at a dealer with fuel system problems a good dealer will take a fuel sample from the tank. Next they will check the fuel filter change intervals. This is where having only a dealer change it can save your but because it is recorded and they only use an OEM approved filter. Try to skimp on filter changes and it may cost you. If there is a high concentration of contamination you are on your own.
Loads of water come from the following:
Poor maintenance at the fuel stations (filters not changed on the pumps)
A load of bad fuel.
Fueling after a large storm (water seeps into under ground tanks).
An old tip- Never fuel up if the tanker truck is at the station, as they fill the tanks they stir up all the crap!!!
As with any vehicle every thing is a compromise, the OEM's want one little fuel filter to filter out everything, fit in your hand and only cost $20.00.
The larger the filter (more area) and having a primary and secondary filter is the only way to protect the modern high pressure injection sytems.
Good luck- Silverbullet06
Ken
05-04-2007, 09:04 AM
#52
"Water is the major problem, eventually even the best filters cannot prevent all the water from entering the close tolerance, high pressure fuel components. Water causes corrosion and accelerated wear immediately to the precision components. Additives and asphaltenes in the fuel can "blind" the fuel filter media (paper) and allow water to pass straight through the filter."
A lot of the popular fuel additives are emulsifiers, which by design also allow water to pass thru the filter. I guess they're popular as they extend filter life and minimize the short term hassle of dealing with water in the system, but they can also allow a large quantity of water to evntually be passed thru the system. The stock fuel filter systems appear to be designed to deal with water that has been demulsified from the fuel, which will prevent as much water as possible from passing thru the system.
A lot of the popular fuel additives are emulsifiers, which by design also allow water to pass thru the filter. I guess they're popular as they extend filter life and minimize the short term hassle of dealing with water in the system, but they can also allow a large quantity of water to evntually be passed thru the system. The stock fuel filter systems appear to be designed to deal with water that has been demulsified from the fuel, which will prevent as much water as possible from passing thru the system.
05-05-2007, 05:01 PM
#54
Don't know how current this is.....
From the GM Techlink Website.
The use of diesel fuel additives is not required or recommended for the 6.5L diesel or the 6.6L DuramaxŽ Diesel engine under normal conditions. The filtering system is designed to block water and contaminants without the use of additives. However, some customers may desire to use fuel additives to improve the characteristics of available diesel fuels.
Water Emulsifiers and Demulsifiers
Fuel additives must be selected carefully. There are two common methods that fuel additives use to cope with water in the fuel.
Demulsification causes water particles to combine together to form larger particles, which drop out of suspension. This allows the fuel filter/water separator to separate the water from the fuel as it is designed to.
Emulsification keeps water particles suspended in the fuel. Alcohol is frequently used as the emulsifier. Emulsification can allow water to get past the fuel filter/water separator, in most cases causing damage to the fuel system.
IMPORTANT: Only alcohol-free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors Diesel engines. Both RacorŽ and StanadyneŽ diesel fuel additives are alcohol-free and utilize water demulsifiers to cope with water in the fuel. Other brands may be available in different areas. Before using them, be sure they clearly state that they are alcohol-free demulsifiers.
From the GM Techlink Website.
The use of diesel fuel additives is not required or recommended for the 6.5L diesel or the 6.6L DuramaxŽ Diesel engine under normal conditions. The filtering system is designed to block water and contaminants without the use of additives. However, some customers may desire to use fuel additives to improve the characteristics of available diesel fuels.
Water Emulsifiers and Demulsifiers
Fuel additives must be selected carefully. There are two common methods that fuel additives use to cope with water in the fuel.
Demulsification causes water particles to combine together to form larger particles, which drop out of suspension. This allows the fuel filter/water separator to separate the water from the fuel as it is designed to.
Emulsification keeps water particles suspended in the fuel. Alcohol is frequently used as the emulsifier. Emulsification can allow water to get past the fuel filter/water separator, in most cases causing damage to the fuel system.
IMPORTANT: Only alcohol-free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors Diesel engines. Both RacorŽ and StanadyneŽ diesel fuel additives are alcohol-free and utilize water demulsifiers to cope with water in the fuel. Other brands may be available in different areas. Before using them, be sure they clearly state that they are alcohol-free demulsifiers.
05-06-2007, 12:57 PM
#55
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make sure all fuel samples are taken post filter water may be in the tank but the coalescence sack on the bottom of the stock fuel pump the sack will not allow to a certain extant water to pass some will at a microscopic level witch our water sep will filter out prior to entering our cp3 pump so some water/contamination will be in the tank
I work @ a detroit diesel repair facility and have seen crap in tanks IE rocks coolant water dirt and theres only two times in ten years where I could say hands down contaminated fuel was responsible for injector failure one was the cust had neglicted his filters and the secondary filter was so plugged it crushed the paper internally allowing contaminants and filter media to plug the injector body causing the needle to stick and washing the cyl walls of oil the second I was in the brush just installed a freshly rebuilt engine in a feller buncher (a big tree cuttin machine)and the opperator pre filled the fuel filters from his pu truck in bed fuel tank with no filter installed filters and we proceded on unit testing less than an hour and a hundred trees big plums of white smoke pouring out shut it down narrowed it to # 4 hole pulled injector and found tip blown in half water will not compress and under the extreme pressure and heat itll blow them out MY whole point after this long ramble is if they are claiming bad fuel pull the banjo at the cp3 and take fuel sample
I work @ a detroit diesel repair facility and have seen crap in tanks IE rocks coolant water dirt and theres only two times in ten years where I could say hands down contaminated fuel was responsible for injector failure one was the cust had neglicted his filters and the secondary filter was so plugged it crushed the paper internally allowing contaminants and filter media to plug the injector body causing the needle to stick and washing the cyl walls of oil the second I was in the brush just installed a freshly rebuilt engine in a feller buncher (a big tree cuttin machine)and the opperator pre filled the fuel filters from his pu truck in bed fuel tank with no filter installed filters and we proceded on unit testing less than an hour and a hundred trees big plums of white smoke pouring out shut it down narrowed it to # 4 hole pulled injector and found tip blown in half water will not compress and under the extreme pressure and heat itll blow them out MY whole point after this long ramble is if they are claiming bad fuel pull the banjo at the cp3 and take fuel sample
05-07-2007, 04:55 PM
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As a matter of fact......
Why do you think they are so quick to deny warranty and insurance claims.
05-08-2007, 05:33 PM
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A friend of my had the dealer says the reason his injector puked was that there was algae contaminating the fuel system and they wouldn't cover it. They wanted to charge him not only for an injector but to clean the entire fuel system.
05-08-2007, 09:23 PM
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05-08-2007, 10:50 PM
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From the GM Techlink Website.
.....
IMPORTANT: Only alcohol-free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors Diesel engines. Both RacorŽ and StanadyneŽ diesel fuel additives are alcohol-free and utilize water demulsifiers to cope with water in the fuel. Other brands may be available in different areas. Before using them, be sure they clearly state that they are alcohol-free demulsifiers.
.....
IMPORTANT: Only alcohol-free water demulsifiers should be used in General Motors Diesel engines. Both RacorŽ and StanadyneŽ diesel fuel additives are alcohol-free and utilize water demulsifiers to cope with water in the fuel. Other brands may be available in different areas. Before using them, be sure they clearly state that they are alcohol-free demulsifiers.
http://www.powerservice.com/
What about Marvel Mystery Oil. Is that ALCOHOL FREE???
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