AlpineRAM

I just found this- I don't agree or disagree with it, but actually it partially voices the feelings of a lot of European media quite correctly.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Jan04/Fitrakis_0103.htm

Don't read it if you are a fanatical supporter of the Bush government. I don't intend to start a flame war here, I do just think that it summarizes some of the concerns the European media have with the US quite neatly.

AlpineRAM

wagontrain131

These are the same people who would have Bush's head if he did nothing to Iraq, and then Iraq became another Afghanistan, a stageing point for another attack on the United States or other nations. Just one of those cases where you are screwed if you do, screwed if you don't. If we can't agree on but one thing let it be this, the world is a better place without Saddam in power, if you don't think so let him come and rule your country, or state or city or whatever. I'm not barking at anyone in particular, this is a good article. It decribes how the "Mainstream" media views the situation exactly, But unfortunately I think the "Mainstream" media is on the minority side of the opinion. People like this always surface when things are going bad. Give it time, Iraq, the United States, and the world will all look back at this as a stupid debate about a single battle in the war on terrorism. Anyways Iraq is free, and I helped pay for it, and that is something I am not ashamed of.

AlpineRAM

Well, I stated that this has nothing to do with my opinion- just that it's a kind of summary of what I read in our newspapers but in good English.
I do see the situation as being screwed if yes, and screwed if no- the bad thing about it is that the US lost a lot of credibility in the old world. (Be it by newspapers, propaganda, facts or whatever- the fact is that there is a lot of bad rap for the USA at the moment. ) And I think that's a bad thing in itself. Less cooperation on an international scale will lead to inferior results. If eg some groups saw that their acts were condemned by theyr prospective peers too, at least the support in their own country and from their own youth would be less.
I think it's premature to say that Iraq is free- I'd say let's wait 5 years and then see what remained of that freedom, and what has developed out of it. (I'm a bit of a pessimist here)

AlpineRAM

jfpointer

The biggest problem with it is that he's arguing both sides of the issue: He says that only the UN Security Council can authorize a country to attack another country, and then claims that Operation Iraqi Freedom is unlawful. Problem with that is that there are 12 years worth of sanctions from the UN that authorize member nations to enforce said sanctions. Iraq also attacked US and British warplanes regularly in the no-fly zones. We'll just leave the UN's corruption and anti-Americanism out of it, since the above by itself destroys his argument.

Inescapable conclusion: the guy's an idiot who can't reason his way out of a paper bag, which is probaby why he's a political science professor instead of having a real job.

kandgo

Alpine,,If you have no opinion either way??? Then why post articles that can cause dissention among the users of this site?? We in the USA will stand up for the wrong in the world and will go to the aid of the hurting people that are constrained under political powers that abuse them,, and then start going outside thier borders to abuse others. The United States will take the heat on this one, but I for one will stand up and say Good JOB soldiers for protecting us and those who are abused and Thanks a million for doing something about the ones who want to terrroize thier own people and then go outside thier borders to try hurting others. Goodluck,,,Rick And God Bless America

Gear Poet

Thanks, JF.

Before I accepted my current "unreal" job, I was a marine diesel mechanic, in the service of my country, a park ranger, and a journalist.

Alpine is a lonely guy here sometimes, and sometimes I don't agree with him. But I'm very glad to have his European perspective. I'm absolutely positive that most people on this site, administrators and members, would agree that good dialogue and diverse opinions are what make these forums worthwhile.

I've seen blanket condemnations of Europeans on another thread. I don't think that's in the spirit of these forums. And even political science professors have feelings.

And if you disagree with me, well, let's take it to the street, and my CTD will leave your CTD in a wall of black smoke. . . .

dieselminded

USA<USA<USA<USA

AlpineRAM

kandgo: If you read my posts again you'll see what they were intended for: And I'll write it again.
To show what the average European citizen reads about Bush and Iraq.
I don't think there's an agenda behind my posts- except maybe that I'd like to show some US citizens what kind of "information" we get over here and maybe also show why the majorities over here think the way they think.
If you regard this as "Anti-Bush" or "Anti-US" propaganda I do feel sorry. I can't do more than write the disclaimers any better than I did.

AlpineRAM

jfpointer

Probably, my truck's stock. But seriously, you had a job as a marine diesel mechanic and became a political science professor? But here's a question: how many of your professor colleagues could troubleshoot an engine? As a student, most of the professors I've known are borderline savants--knowledgeable in their field, helpless elsewhere, and definitely not well-rounded.

Markus knows that I'm talking about the individual who wrote the ill-reasoned article he linked to, not about him. I'll say this much, I wouldn't want the guy working for me--I'm afraid I'd end up having to give him the answers all the time.

AlpineRAM

Hi Jim!

I know what you are talking about (and whom)- basically I wanted to point out what kind of stuff we read in our media. (I was just too lazy to translate it myself, and when I found this articleI thought, well that sums it up nicely). Actually I don't think much about this guy writing it.
I'd say that you'd better be careful in making fun of pol. sci profs some of them might even throw an evil wrench Over here at one of our universities we had a pol. sci professor (even head of the department) who had passed some of the hardest military courses over here - alpine hunter heavy division. (Means people who do have fun running around on the mountains we have here with some luggage and a machine gun, or other pieces of iron for 14 days or longer without resupplying)
Where I do always wonder with what I read is that generally the media over here makes all that Bush does sound massively stupid. (and all his advisors etc)- As stupid as the average US citizen in the views of the same media.
Basically, after getting to know lots of US citizens I can not second the notion of the average of them being stupid. (Not knowing Mr. Bush or any of his advisors I'll abstain of any estimate of their respective intelligence)

Have a nice evening!

AlpineRAM

FiverBob

Oh boy, here we go again.

Thank God for a president with enough guts to stand up and take whatever measures are necessary to protect our country. Luckily, the rest of the world that does not understand and calls him a cowboy will benefit from the results. There is a lot of jealousy of the American life style driving a lot of opinions in the rest of the world, while they reach over the table and take our generousity and help, then stab us in the back. Disgusting.

Shut up Bob - - you're going to get mad again.

JustPlainOldAmericanBob

jthorpe

I'm curious how the Europeans feel about the biggest kickback scandal in world history, The oil for food program. I think Tommy Franks name for it is more appropriate, "Oil for Palaces".

Kofi Annan says the investigations about this program are a lynching, but there is evidence that shows Benon Sevan receiving oil and benefitted financially from the program. For those of you who don't know, Mr. Sevan was the director of the program!

You don't hear much about that in the main stream media.

You don't hear the fact about girls in Iraq and Afghanistan being able to go to shool for the first time.

You don't hear about our military rebuilding their country, feeding their hungry and maintaining infrastructure.

You don't hear about Nick Burg and the others who have been murdered. Nope, you just hear about horrible we are for the "atrocities" committed by our soldiers at abu ghraib.

You also don't hear that we have found WMD in Iraq. Enough to kill 500,000 people in short order. This has been proven but the reporters don't tell you this.

I do fault Bush for one thing, not making this information public himself! Why does this man not hold a press conference and talk about these things! If he did, then the media would HAVE to report it. He doesn't do it. If he doesn't start getting something going soon, he's going to end up a one-term president, which scares me to no end!

cumminnotstrokn

AlpineRam, I personally think your post was more than gracious. You could have pointed out how Bush sounds like a moron giving his speaches, can't even pronounce nuclear or the names of prisons where prisoners were tortured with approval of the adminisrtation. How else would the pictures from 5 different prisons be almost identical? This man is supposed to be a Harvard graduate who took his tests for him? This has only elevated terrorist attacks which most have been in Europe, so you Bush lovers think it's insignificant.

dieselminded

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!!!!

Lary Ellis (Top)

I think you mean "speeches" not "speaches" and
"administration" instead of "adminisrtation"...don't you?

Careful now, if you make a mistake some dang fool will call you a moron