What is so great about FASS ???
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From: Spokane, Wa
Originally Posted by Superduty
And, I don't really care what you run. But I do want people to understand fuel pumps. Apparently, it has become my "dog". If people understood fuel pumps better I think we could all have a lot less trouble with our trucks.
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From: Raleigh, NC
Originally Posted by Gypsyman
Stay after it Superduty. For every "one" that's on here arguing the point there are a thousand lurkers that are getting the point.
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"there are a thousand lurkers that are getting the point."
Man, would I be happy with that !
I don't mean to be argumentative or confrontational, but there is just NO WAY that Dodge Cummins truck owners should be having anywhere near the problems they are with lift pump. (And thus injection pumps... )
I think it is high time this topic got discussed in a frank manner. Everything open for discussion and cross examination. No blind faith. All scientific like.
Man, would I be happy with that !
I don't mean to be argumentative or confrontational, but there is just NO WAY that Dodge Cummins truck owners should be having anywhere near the problems they are with lift pump. (And thus injection pumps... )
I think it is high time this topic got discussed in a frank manner. Everything open for discussion and cross examination. No blind faith. All scientific like.
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From: Spokane, Wa
Originally Posted by banshee
You must be referring to me, Richard, so I'll grant your wish and go along my merry way. I'm tired of talking in circles anyway.... Have a nice day.
Seems we have gone away from technical discussions and headed more towards "my idea is better than yours, facts or not" instead of just exchanging information and gleening the best from everyones input.
I'm out too...
Richard
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It is an instant reflex for Dodge Cummins truck owners to say NAPA (Carter) and Vulcan:
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...163#post862163
Here is another carburetor fuel pump.
I don't recommend using a pump with this sort of delivery curve. Not enough pressure. Once again, HUGE flow, way more than 99% of engines need and not enough pressure. A stock Cummins needs less than 30 GPH and more than 20 PSI.
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...163#post862163
Here is another carburetor fuel pump.
I don't recommend using a pump with this sort of delivery curve. Not enough pressure. Once again, HUGE flow, way more than 99% of engines need and not enough pressure. A stock Cummins needs less than 30 GPH and more than 20 PSI.
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Here is another one.
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...3&page=1&pp=15
Puts in a Holley Blue (Rated for 7 PSI, Max pressure of 14 PSI.) Only has 11 PSI at the pump and 8 @ WOT. Another guy in the thread running the Holley Blue at 19 PSI.
These pumps are operating outside their design. The motors are being over worked. This is asking for failure.
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...3&page=1&pp=15
Puts in a Holley Blue (Rated for 7 PSI, Max pressure of 14 PSI.) Only has 11 PSI at the pump and 8 @ WOT. Another guy in the thread running the Holley Blue at 19 PSI.
These pumps are operating outside their design. The motors are being over worked. This is asking for failure.
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From: Holly Ridge, N.C.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Quote by "Superduty":
"I don't mean to be rude but the Holley Red Pump is probably just about the
worst pump you could find for this application."
__________________________________________________ _____________
Well "Superduty", that's your opinion isn't it?? And "not to be rude", but you know what they say about "opinions" don't you?? Like some of the other members here, I have tried to state my opinions and "discuss" this whole issue with you and others, giving pros and cons, personal experience etc.
BUT,......IMO the "bottom line" with YOU is that you feel your "Walbro" Fuel Pump is the BEST one out there and every other DTR Member who has a FASS, Holley, Aeromotive or others are stupid or ignorant and you are the only one who REALLY knows what is best!! What do you think Superduty; I think that is right on target!!
Here are some of the things I have learned about you in this discussion:
1.) You don't like Holley or FASS Fuel Pumps and don't really know how much they cost v.s. your Walbro even though I posted for you that my Holley Red cost about $85.00.
2.) You love to get on almost EVERY SINGLE post in DTR about fuel pumps or fuel issues and tell us all (Holley, FASS, other brands owners) how ignorant we all are not to be running your Walbro.
3.) You want the DTR Membership (including me) to maybe consider buying a Walbro Fuel Pump, but when I asked you where a person could buy one, you said; "I don't know." Regardless of what you think "availability" has to be an issue here, and I gave you my experience with the PE pump.
4.) You really have no "track record" (reliability records) on the Walbro Fuel Pumps WHEN USED IN DIESELS to give us other than your OWN record in your truck! Who else has them in a Dodge CTD BESIDES you???
4.) You advocate or "like" the idea of just the ONE pump! Well "Superduty"
alot of us here went that route and in my case I was left on the side of the
Interstate! So, even though you don't like the idea of say a Holley running in "conjunction" with a stock lift pump (like myself or banshee run) at least it gives a certain amount of "insurance" that if one pump stops the other one will at least get us home! I know........I know......it's NOT A WALBRO!!!
There is more I noted on you but,......what's the point??? Right???
I guess "Gypsyman" has really "summed it all up" for me when he said;
"Seems we have gone away from technical discussions and headed more towards "my idea is better than yours, facts or not" instead of just exchanging information and gleening the best from everyones input."
FWIW,......until you or anybody else can give me some concrete data on the long term reliability of your "Walbro Fuel Pumps" I will be sticking with my current set-up and maybe in the future look into the mechanical system which I KNOW is reliable after having run a 96' Dodge CTD 12 valve for 218,000 miles with that system! Like your beloved Ford Fuel Pumps, the older Dodge CTD 12 valve trucks (P7100, mechanical fuel pump) have an EXCELLENT track record! "Time will tell" on your Walbro Fuel Pumps when used in a diesel truck "Superduty" and look out when I hear of the first one failing!!
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John_P
Quote by "Superduty":
"I don't mean to be rude but the Holley Red Pump is probably just about the
worst pump you could find for this application."
__________________________________________________ _____________
Well "Superduty", that's your opinion isn't it?? And "not to be rude", but you know what they say about "opinions" don't you?? Like some of the other members here, I have tried to state my opinions and "discuss" this whole issue with you and others, giving pros and cons, personal experience etc.
BUT,......IMO the "bottom line" with YOU is that you feel your "Walbro" Fuel Pump is the BEST one out there and every other DTR Member who has a FASS, Holley, Aeromotive or others are stupid or ignorant and you are the only one who REALLY knows what is best!! What do you think Superduty; I think that is right on target!!
Here are some of the things I have learned about you in this discussion:
1.) You don't like Holley or FASS Fuel Pumps and don't really know how much they cost v.s. your Walbro even though I posted for you that my Holley Red cost about $85.00.
2.) You love to get on almost EVERY SINGLE post in DTR about fuel pumps or fuel issues and tell us all (Holley, FASS, other brands owners) how ignorant we all are not to be running your Walbro.
3.) You want the DTR Membership (including me) to maybe consider buying a Walbro Fuel Pump, but when I asked you where a person could buy one, you said; "I don't know." Regardless of what you think "availability" has to be an issue here, and I gave you my experience with the PE pump.
4.) You really have no "track record" (reliability records) on the Walbro Fuel Pumps WHEN USED IN DIESELS to give us other than your OWN record in your truck! Who else has them in a Dodge CTD BESIDES you???
4.) You advocate or "like" the idea of just the ONE pump! Well "Superduty"
alot of us here went that route and in my case I was left on the side of the
Interstate! So, even though you don't like the idea of say a Holley running in "conjunction" with a stock lift pump (like myself or banshee run) at least it gives a certain amount of "insurance" that if one pump stops the other one will at least get us home! I know........I know......it's NOT A WALBRO!!!
There is more I noted on you but,......what's the point??? Right???
I guess "Gypsyman" has really "summed it all up" for me when he said;
"Seems we have gone away from technical discussions and headed more towards "my idea is better than yours, facts or not" instead of just exchanging information and gleening the best from everyones input."
FWIW,......until you or anybody else can give me some concrete data on the long term reliability of your "Walbro Fuel Pumps" I will be sticking with my current set-up and maybe in the future look into the mechanical system which I KNOW is reliable after having run a 96' Dodge CTD 12 valve for 218,000 miles with that system! Like your beloved Ford Fuel Pumps, the older Dodge CTD 12 valve trucks (P7100, mechanical fuel pump) have an EXCELLENT track record! "Time will tell" on your Walbro Fuel Pumps when used in a diesel truck "Superduty" and look out when I hear of the first one failing!!
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John_P
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"Well "Superduty", that's your opinion isn't it??"
The design pressure on the Holley Red pump is a whole 4 PSI. Its maximum pressure is 7 PSI. What do you expect me to say ? And those numbers aren't opinions. Those are facts.
I am not going to respond to the rest.
In my defense, I got dragged into this helping a 3rd gener troubleshoot what turned out to be a fuel pump problem via PMs. And if I didn't read about fuel pumps failing left right and center, I wouldn't have said a thing.
The design pressure on the Holley Red pump is a whole 4 PSI. Its maximum pressure is 7 PSI. What do you expect me to say ? And those numbers aren't opinions. Those are facts.
I am not going to respond to the rest.
In my defense, I got dragged into this helping a 3rd gener troubleshoot what turned out to be a fuel pump problem via PMs. And if I didn't read about fuel pumps failing left right and center, I wouldn't have said a thing.
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From: Holly Ridge, N.C.
Whatever you say "Superduty!!" I have to remember that you are THE resident EXPERT on these fuel pumps and fuel systems! Like I said, us Holley and FASS owners are either stupid or ignorant IYO!!
And you "opened the door" when you made your little "statement" about the
Holley Pumps! A little advice for you; "Sometimes it is best to just to keep your little "personal thoughts" to yourself in discussions like this!
---------
John_P
And you "opened the door" when you made your little "statement" about the
Holley Pumps! A little advice for you; "Sometimes it is best to just to keep your little "personal thoughts" to yourself in discussions like this!
---------
John_P
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"A little advice for you; "Sometimes it is best to just to keep your little "personal thoughts" to yourself in discussions like this!"
If it wasn't for discenters then how would the world ever move forward ? Ever heard of the Renaissance ? I don't say I am an expert. If what I am saying doesn't make sense then lets correct it.
You Dodge Cummins guys have replaced lift pump after lift pump and blown up I dn't know how many VP44s. Aren't you interested in having a frank discussion about this ?
Am I supposed to blow sunshine up your wazoo because you run a Holley Red and it hasn't failed for you ? Should I say its a great lift pump when it is even weaker than the Holley Blue ? C'mon !
Lets start getting honest about lift pumps and stop perpetuating this CRAP. Because that is exactly what it is. People come on these boards and say their Carter is the best thing since sliced bread and they got a deal on it for $175. IT IS THE WRONG FRIGGIN PUMP. That is why you have to replace it in the first place !
Aren't you guys tired of this ? Isn't it time for some debate and graphs and reasoning ?
If it wasn't for discenters then how would the world ever move forward ? Ever heard of the Renaissance ? I don't say I am an expert. If what I am saying doesn't make sense then lets correct it.
You Dodge Cummins guys have replaced lift pump after lift pump and blown up I dn't know how many VP44s. Aren't you interested in having a frank discussion about this ?
Am I supposed to blow sunshine up your wazoo because you run a Holley Red and it hasn't failed for you ? Should I say its a great lift pump when it is even weaker than the Holley Blue ? C'mon !
Lets start getting honest about lift pumps and stop perpetuating this CRAP. Because that is exactly what it is. People come on these boards and say their Carter is the best thing since sliced bread and they got a deal on it for $175. IT IS THE WRONG FRIGGIN PUMP. That is why you have to replace it in the first place !
Aren't you guys tired of this ? Isn't it time for some debate and graphs and reasoning ?
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Originally Posted by Superduty
"Kind of like you assume a regulated down fuel injection pump is "the way" ? What makes you so right and me so wrong?"
How many fuel injected cars do you see running 2 pumps ? What is the pressure safety margin on your design ? 2 pumps = twice the chance of pump failure. Oh, I forgot, your VP44 won't totally starve if only one pump fails.
"My Holley setup has lasted just as long as your setup, makes similar pressures at similar flows"
Nope. With a regulator at the injection pump, mine would see 16 PSI all the time. No drop. Under that circumstance, the Walbro would be pushing 24ish PSI. Your pumps would be straining. My pump ran at 70 PSI. Yours couldn't touch that.
It is like comparing a diesel with a gasser. Your setup is functional, but it certainly isn't optimal.
And, I don't really care what you run. But I do want people to understand fuel pumps. Apparently, it has become my "dog". If people understood fuel pumps better I think we could all have a lot less trouble with our trucks.
How many fuel injected cars do you see running 2 pumps ? What is the pressure safety margin on your design ? 2 pumps = twice the chance of pump failure. Oh, I forgot, your VP44 won't totally starve if only one pump fails.
"My Holley setup has lasted just as long as your setup, makes similar pressures at similar flows"
Nope. With a regulator at the injection pump, mine would see 16 PSI all the time. No drop. Under that circumstance, the Walbro would be pushing 24ish PSI. Your pumps would be straining. My pump ran at 70 PSI. Yours couldn't touch that.
It is like comparing a diesel with a gasser. Your setup is functional, but it certainly isn't optimal.
And, I don't really care what you run. But I do want people to understand fuel pumps. Apparently, it has become my "dog". If people understood fuel pumps better I think we could all have a lot less trouble with our trucks.
Not to mention the fact if youre regulating the walboro down that much,you might need to put a bigger return line.
Get over 100k on your Walboro pump and report back.....
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"Lots of fuel injected race cars run twin pumps." Irrelevant. I was referring to a production car. Race cars do all sorts of things for a whole bunch of reasons, like redundancy.
"Also,I dont think youre going to cool the pump with low psi." Which pump ?
"Not to mention the fact if youre regulating the walboro down that much,you might need to put a bigger return line."
Wrong again. You guys need to buy a 10 foot piece of 3/8" tubing and pump fuel through it at various flow rates and measure the pressure. I've got a sum total of about 8 PSI before the filter on my setup. I assume my Walbro is in good health and that is 75ish GPH. Now why do I need a bigger return line ?
Do you guys want me to ignore these technical myths or comment on them ?
"Get over 100k on your Walboro pump and report back....."
Sure... I'll get right on that. I guess the fact that it ran 60K at 70 PSI and most of the pumps people have run on their Dodges fail at 15 PSI is irrelevant. And the fact the Walbro has 5x the HP of some of these other pumps and the fact the gasser guys use it at 80 PSI pumping gasoline and...
Sheesh !
I am now convinced the reason Dodge Cummins trucks have bad fuel pumps is because the owners want them to ! I can't think of any other vehicle that would get away with having a bad fuel pump for 6 years ! (98.5-2004.5) And after the 6 years, the owners are still applying the same logic/solution that has failed for 6 years.
Do you guys like changing fuel pumps and wrecking your injection pumps ? Is it a hobby ? At this point I don't know what to say.
I am learning that you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Even if you flog it to death.
"Also,I dont think youre going to cool the pump with low psi." Which pump ?
"Not to mention the fact if youre regulating the walboro down that much,you might need to put a bigger return line."
Wrong again. You guys need to buy a 10 foot piece of 3/8" tubing and pump fuel through it at various flow rates and measure the pressure. I've got a sum total of about 8 PSI before the filter on my setup. I assume my Walbro is in good health and that is 75ish GPH. Now why do I need a bigger return line ?
Do you guys want me to ignore these technical myths or comment on them ?
"Get over 100k on your Walboro pump and report back....."
Sure... I'll get right on that. I guess the fact that it ran 60K at 70 PSI and most of the pumps people have run on their Dodges fail at 15 PSI is irrelevant. And the fact the Walbro has 5x the HP of some of these other pumps and the fact the gasser guys use it at 80 PSI pumping gasoline and...
Sheesh !
I am now convinced the reason Dodge Cummins trucks have bad fuel pumps is because the owners want them to ! I can't think of any other vehicle that would get away with having a bad fuel pump for 6 years ! (98.5-2004.5) And after the 6 years, the owners are still applying the same logic/solution that has failed for 6 years.
Do you guys like changing fuel pumps and wrecking your injection pumps ? Is it a hobby ? At this point I don't know what to say.
I am learning that you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Even if you flog it to death.
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"You guys need to buy a 10 foot piece of 3/8" tubing"
90 GPH is 1.5 GP Minute. That is less than 1/3 of a 5 gallon pail per minute. 1 gallon = 4 quarts, right ? That is a quart of fuel every 10 seconds.
Why can't that go through a 5/16" or 3/8 line ? And it isn't like the Walbro (or Bosch) pumps don't have pressure capability to push it.
90 GPH is 1.5 GP Minute. That is less than 1/3 of a 5 gallon pail per minute. 1 gallon = 4 quarts, right ? That is a quart of fuel every 10 seconds.
Why can't that go through a 5/16" or 3/8 line ? And it isn't like the Walbro (or Bosch) pumps don't have pressure capability to push it.
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From: Holly Ridge, N.C.
__________________________________________________ __________
Quote by "Superduty":
"Am I supposed to blow sunshine up your wazoo because you run a Holley
Red and it hasn't failed for you?
__________________________________________________ __________
No "Superduty" your not!!! But,.....you had made it ABUNDANTLY clear right from the beginning that you don't like the Holley or FASS Fuel Pumps!
FINE!!! I got it and I think everyone else that has participated in the discussion got your point to! But,.....then you just had to say; "the Holley Red Pump is just about the WORST pump you could find for this application."
REALLY?????? Because as I told you in earlier posts, (which I feel you just ignored) I bought and tried a $300.00 "Product Engineering" PE 4200 and it FAILED within three (3) months!! You can go back and read my description of that PE pump. I will tell you that in a "side-by-side" or internal comparison it looks like it would "kick the Holley's butt!" We took BOTH the Holley and the PE Pumps apart and the PE seemed to be a much better pump! But, "real world" conditions DID NOT bear that out!! My "cheap" little Holley Red has lasted about eight (8) times as long as that high dollar ($$$$) PE!!
You want another example??? A very good friend of mine who also has a 2002 Dodge CTD 24 valve pumping out over 500 H.P. tried an "Aeromotive"
AEI-11203 buying it directly out of the Summit Racing Catalog! That pump lasted on his truck for about a week!! What did he replace it with??? A Holley Red,......which has been on his truck for almost two (2) years now.
So, "Superduty",..........your statement about the Holley being the WORST pump for our applications is WRONG as far as myself or say DTR Member "banshee" is concerned!
Throughout this thread, you had been going along pretty good IMO UNTIL that point "Superduty!" That is the problem I have with your statements!
They are WRONG and I have just told you why they are because of my personal experiences. And AGAIN,........I want to see a long "track record" with the "Walbro" before I buy one. That is one of my personal standards right now because of the many pumps I have seen tried and then fail.
Other members have tried pointing things out to you also, the most recent
being DTR Member "1trick4u." He just posted to you that "lots of fuel injected cars run twin pumps." I am sure he has some experience with this and therefore that is why he is telling you that! I respect his knowledge and opinion! You should too, but my guess is you will be arguing with him here sometime tonight or tomorrow.
Stick with what you think is the best fuel pump for you Superduty!! But also respect what the other DTR Members are using too! That is what I am saying!
And yes,......... to answer your question, I am VERY TIRED of the fuel pump situation with my 24 valve and for the guys with the 3rd Gen CR engines and pumps. But,.....until the somebody comes up with a " tough, reliable" alternative for all of us, I will run what I feel is best FOR ME, taking into consideration, price, availability and reliability.
-------
John_P
Quote by "Superduty":
"Am I supposed to blow sunshine up your wazoo because you run a Holley
Red and it hasn't failed for you?
__________________________________________________ __________
No "Superduty" your not!!! But,.....you had made it ABUNDANTLY clear right from the beginning that you don't like the Holley or FASS Fuel Pumps!
FINE!!! I got it and I think everyone else that has participated in the discussion got your point to! But,.....then you just had to say; "the Holley Red Pump is just about the WORST pump you could find for this application."
REALLY?????? Because as I told you in earlier posts, (which I feel you just ignored) I bought and tried a $300.00 "Product Engineering" PE 4200 and it FAILED within three (3) months!! You can go back and read my description of that PE pump. I will tell you that in a "side-by-side" or internal comparison it looks like it would "kick the Holley's butt!" We took BOTH the Holley and the PE Pumps apart and the PE seemed to be a much better pump! But, "real world" conditions DID NOT bear that out!! My "cheap" little Holley Red has lasted about eight (8) times as long as that high dollar ($$$$) PE!!
You want another example??? A very good friend of mine who also has a 2002 Dodge CTD 24 valve pumping out over 500 H.P. tried an "Aeromotive"
AEI-11203 buying it directly out of the Summit Racing Catalog! That pump lasted on his truck for about a week!! What did he replace it with??? A Holley Red,......which has been on his truck for almost two (2) years now.
So, "Superduty",..........your statement about the Holley being the WORST pump for our applications is WRONG as far as myself or say DTR Member "banshee" is concerned!
Throughout this thread, you had been going along pretty good IMO UNTIL that point "Superduty!" That is the problem I have with your statements!
They are WRONG and I have just told you why they are because of my personal experiences. And AGAIN,........I want to see a long "track record" with the "Walbro" before I buy one. That is one of my personal standards right now because of the many pumps I have seen tried and then fail.
Other members have tried pointing things out to you also, the most recent
being DTR Member "1trick4u." He just posted to you that "lots of fuel injected cars run twin pumps." I am sure he has some experience with this and therefore that is why he is telling you that! I respect his knowledge and opinion! You should too, but my guess is you will be arguing with him here sometime tonight or tomorrow.
Stick with what you think is the best fuel pump for you Superduty!! But also respect what the other DTR Members are using too! That is what I am saying!
And yes,......... to answer your question, I am VERY TIRED of the fuel pump situation with my 24 valve and for the guys with the 3rd Gen CR engines and pumps. But,.....until the somebody comes up with a " tough, reliable" alternative for all of us, I will run what I feel is best FOR ME, taking into consideration, price, availability and reliability.
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John_P
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From: Holly Ridge, N.C.
I was right!!! You "refuted" what "1trick4u" said BEFORE I sent my last post in! 
****,......if nothing else you are "predictable" Superduty!!!!
Thanks for "reinforcing" that thought for me. This all goes back to what I said in my last post!
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John_P
****,......if nothing else you are "predictable" Superduty!!!!Thanks for "reinforcing" that thought for me. This all goes back to what I said in my last post!
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John_P