Superduty, with dirty fuel being about your only concern for failure of the Walbro pump, what about just putting in one of those cheap inline fuel filters as a precaution? I only mention this because with the FASS pump only system, they include one in the kit for installation before the pump.

 

Sure, you could put an inline filter or finer screen on the suction line.

I dunno if it is really necessary. I had to use less than clean fuel from a barrel for a while and my Walbro hasn't quit. It was running at 70 PSI at the time.

I think the Walbro comments are geared towards gasoline installations, although the pumps will fail with dirty diesel too. Our installations have a number of things in their favor.

1) If the regulator is put after the filter then the dirt only goes through the pump once.
2) Diesel fuel has better lubrication than does gasoline.
3) Diesel fuel filters are finer than gasoline filters.
4) The Walbro will be operating at lower pressures 20ish PSI versus 60+ on a gasoline fuel injected system

They test these pumps by running dirt mixed with fuel through them. They will tolerate some. I'm not sure I would worry about filtering before the pump until it is proved to be a problem.

I find the Walbro to be a tough pump.

 

One thing -- the fass uses a gerotor pump (at least the 95 gph model I have does), not a vane pump. It has an internal regulator/bybass back to the tank. It is however NOT fuel cooled, but air cooled.

The fass is too expensive for what it is given that the pump motor appears not to be the 300K mile no-brainer that it's advertised to be and that the regulator mechanism appears unimmune to failure. But I'm not sorry I bought mine; I'm in a better position to fix fuel problems if they arise (as I suspect they ultimately will).

I have a temp-fixed leaking freeze plug that can't be fixed without pulling the head. When I resolve to have it fixed I'm seriously thinking about a new cam with the cam driven fuel system. This is the only fix I've seen that feels REAL.

 

Harp away on the anti-holley campaign, but the system on that truck has been in service for 2 1/2 years and feeds 500+ hp at 16 psi... another dual pump setup. Another guy has the same setup feeding close to 600hp, and it has been running for close to three years. Same pumps... no replacements although spares are carried just in case. You know the story with my setup... 18 psi feeding over 700 hp. But I guess the dual pump setups with the wimpy Holleys don't work?? Get back with me once you have over two years or 50,000+ miles on your setup on your truck. Just keep your fingers crossed that your regulator doesn't stick, because you'll be picking up your filter housing's pieces off the side of the road.

PS... a holley stuck in line with a factory pump would be a cheaper setup than your Walbro. It doesn't work though....

 

Thanks for the info on the FASS.

"I'm seriously thinking about a new cam with the cam driven fuel system. This is the only fix I've seen that feels REAL."

The Pre 99 Ford Powerstrokes used a cam driven fuel pump. The post '99 engines use the Bosch setup. The later was used because it gives a smoother fuel pressure, less pulsations. I don't hear the '99+ PSD owners screaming for their cam lift pumps back.

Why is it that Dodge people have such aversion to electric lift pumps ? Are you wanting a cam lift pump on all the gassers you own ? All the fuel injected gas vehicles operate at 40-80 PSI with no problems. If the proper electric lift pump was put in these trucks at the factory when they were built, you would have never had these problems.


"Get back with me once you have over two years or 50,000+ miles on your setup on your truck."

My Walbro already did 60,000 miles at 70PSI, all by itself, no booster pump.

"Just keep your fingers crossed that your regulator doesn't stick, because you'll be picking up your filter housing's pieces off the side of the road."

Somehow all the Ford Powerstroke trucks and every fuel injected gasoline engine on the road manage to avoid this rather unlikely problem. If you look closely at my setup there is no regulator, only a bypass.

Running a Holley in conjunction with a stock pump takes a lot of the load off of it. It runs at half the pressure of using a Holley alone. Each pump runs at 8 PSI. It probably works, but it ain't pretty.

"PS... a holley stuck in line with a factory pump would be a cheaper setup than your Walbro. It doesn't work though.... "

A Holley Blue pump is $180. A Walbro is $140. And the Walbro is 4x the pump. How is it cheaper ? Why fool around with the Holley ? Why run 2 pumps ?

Dodge-Cummins trucks must be the only vehicle in the world that need 2 lift pumps to supply fuel at 20PSI. If it needed 30 or 40 PSI, would you be running 5 pumps ? Or just one good pump ?

 

Just to give you guys some reflection of how ingrained your fuel pump mis information is, visit this thread. The best $100 you can spend on your truck:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...d.php?t=148145

It advocates a Vulcan Big Line kit. http://www.vulcanperformance.com/servlet/StoreFront

"Plus the LP is easy to change." "Even with my extra inline 10 micron fuel filter I see 16PSI idle and 12 PSI WOT."

I don't know how to say this, but owners of other vehicles are not worried about how easy the lift pump is to change. If this guy installed a Walbro for $140 he wouldn't be worried that the fuel lines had a few PSI of backpressure. And if the regulator was mounted at the injection pump there would be NO pressure drop at WOT.

The mods done by Dodge Cummins truck owners are compensating for the wrong lift pump rather than correcting the problem by installing the right lift pump.

 

just found this thread!

AGREED AGREED AGREED!!!

I've been saying for years that all that needs to happen is have the lift pump replaced w/ a decent pump!

don't need to spend $500 on a friggin' pump!

 

Where are you shopping at??? $105 out the door at ANY Advance Auto. 140 > 105.

30 or 40 isn't needed... only 15-20. Quit "what if"ing everything.

 

Holley Blue $180?????

Where are you shopping for fuel pumps???? Neiman-Marcus

I paid $95.00 at my local Autozone....

 

Sorry, the Carter pump was $180, according to some posts in 2nd gen. I got my carburetor lift pumps mixed up.

$95 for the wrong fuel pump, saving $55 over a decent pump is false economy.

"30 or 40 isn't needed... only 15-20. Quit "what if"ing everything."

I am trying to point out the folly in the logic that has been used in fuel pump selection. You are running 16 PSI, so you use 2 8 PSI pumps. If you go to any other performance website, if they needed 16 PSI, they bought a pump that would output that. Or way more than that. Do you guys have an aversion to fuel pressure ?

Its like someone somewhere decided that a Holley in conjunction with the stock pump was "the way" to solve this problem and everyone else just followed along and now it is the accepted norm. Didn't anyone look at any other pumps along the way ? Or at any other vehicle ? There are lots of pumps and lots of vehicles that run at way more than 16PSI and they don't use more than one pump. And the pumps don't give trouble.

And another thing... the guy is proud that his pressure "only" fell to 12 PSI at WOT. On the gasoline fuel injected vehicles that pressure can't fall (or rise) at all, otherwise the fuel mixture will lean or richen. They run the regulator at the fuel rail, just like I am proposing you guys run the regulator at the injection pump.

I don't get why there is resistance to doing things the right way, ie Walbro and regulator.

 

When I decided to buy a Dodge/Cummins it was to get the legendary (and, as time goes on, more and more mythical) power/reliability combo that you don't get with a gas engine'ed truck. I wanted to know that the heart of my truck would likely never stop beating. The electric fuel systems on the 24V trucks makes this more of a fantasy than reality (though I know failures are far less likely than you get the impression they are reading these boards).

If I had an gas truck I'd expect to get stuck on the side of the road a few times in 100K miles.

I think the fundemental problem is that you have a 12V electric motor doing more work than it should; too much current required which makes it harder to make an inexpensive but reliable motor in the necessary duty-cycle class.

 

Kind of like you assume a regulated down fuel injection pump is "the way" ? What makes you so right and me so wrong? My Holley setup has lasted just as long as your setup, makes similar pressures at similar flows, but my way is junk??? If you say so

 

I'm with Superduty on this and I don't even have a dog IN this hunt. He's not saying that your pumps don't work just that if your in the market for a solution look towards a FUEL cooled pump and a system that doesn't dead head the excess pressure.
Jesus guys, this is just common sense information being offered by another member. Give the pricing garbage a rest and look at the facts. Fuel cooled pumps, in theory, should lead a longer life due to the nature of the design.

Richard

 

"If I had an gas truck I'd expect to get stuck on the side of the road a few times in 100K miles."

Due to fuel pumps ? Are you kidding ? The Dodge Cummins truck is the ONLY vehicle I know of that has fuel pumps that regularly fail. My previous Chev truck had over 100K on it and I never touched the fuel pump. It was fuel injected, so I expect it was operating at 50 PSI+.

"I think the fundemental problem is that you have a 12V electric motor doing more work than it should; too much current required which makes it harder to make an inexpensive but reliable motor in the necessary duty-cycle class."

So... the Dodge Cummins engines only need 20 PSI. Why not buy a fuel pump spec'd to deliver 100 or 150 PSI ? It will have a REALLY powerful motor with BIG brushes. It will be cooled by fuel. Wouldn't that be a novel idea ?

There is no reason why the failure rate on a 12V DC fuel pump motor should be any different from any other electrical motor (with a brush). It is a matter of selecting the right motor for the job, ie enough brush area, big enough armature, good cooling, etc. Select a pump with a motor that is oversized for the application.

Why is it that Dodge Cummins truck owners are capable of selecting a truck with an engine that is overbuilt for the application, but not a fuel pump ?

Not all fuel pumps are built the same. They are not the same power.

OK... lets compare pump HP:

Power = flow (GPH) x pressure(PSI) /103,000

Walbro outputs 35 GPH @ 120 PSI.

HP = 35 x 120 / 103,000 = 0.04 HP.

Holley Blue outputs 88 GPH @ 9 PSI.

HP = 88 x 9 / 103,000 = 0.008 HP.

The Walbro pump has 5x the power !

BTW: according to the FASS webpage it too has 0.04 HP. However that is the rated motor HP, whereas the above numbers are the motor output pumping power, which is a slightly different thing. Kind of like rear wheel HP for the Walbro versus engine HP for the FASS. And if that Walbro doesn't have enough omph for you, Walbro has an in tank version good to 150 PSI with an even bigger motor. How much lift pump power do you want ?

Here is another analogy that might help. Fuel pump flow is like engine RPM. Fuel pump pressure is like engine torque. The Holley has a peak torque of 18 PSI. The Walbro has a peak torque of 120 PSI. You guys understand torque, right ?

The carburetor lift pumps are like ricer engines. They have lots of RPM (flow) but no torque (pressure). The fuel injection lift pumps (Walbro, etc.) are like a Cummins. They have less RPM (flow), but lots and lots of torque (pressure). You have to look at the pump flow curve to see if the pump fits the application, just like you have to look at a dyno chart.

Putting a second carburetor lift pump on an application is like trying to pull a trailer with 2 ricer engines instead of one Cummins. Does that make sense ?

 

"Kind of like you assume a regulated down fuel injection pump is "the way" ? What makes you so right and me so wrong?"

How many fuel injected cars do you see running 2 pumps ? What is the pressure safety margin on your design ? 2 pumps = twice the chance of pump failure. Oh, I forgot, your VP44 won't totally starve if only one pump fails.

"My Holley setup has lasted just as long as your setup, makes similar pressures at similar flows"

Nope. With a regulator at the injection pump, mine would see 16 PSI all the time. No drop. Under that circumstance, the Walbro would be pushing 24ish PSI. Your pumps would be straining. My pump ran at 70 PSI. Yours couldn't touch that.

It is like comparing a diesel with a gasser. Your setup is functional, but it certainly isn't optimal.

And, I don't really care what you run. But I do want people to understand fuel pumps. Apparently, it has become my "dog". If people understood fuel pumps better I think we could all have a lot less trouble with our trucks.