I'll comment on this in the implementing a Walbro fuel system thread.

 

Actually it doesn't. The factory LP is left in place as a back-up in the unlikely event that the belt breaks. It also speeds priming after a filter change, more of a convenience than anything. You just turn on the key rather than having to crank the engine thus turning the mechanical pump. The first few months of testing done by DTT were sans electric LP and I rarely wait for the grids so I start sans the LP all the time.

Richard

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm still not enthused with the RASP. Each to his own.

"Superduty, I finally went back and read some of your threads out of interest. I have my feed solution handled but I went back out of curiosity. If I'm reading all of this correctly the only difference in your system is the particular brand of pump you chose and the small bypass line that you added, correct?"

It isn't the BRAND of pump, it is the TYPE of pump. (emphasis, not shouting.) Altogether now. The Walbro is a fuel cooled, high pressure, gerotor style pump designed to feed fuel injection systems. Any pump of this type would be suitable. Holley makes them. Carter makes them. Bosch makes them.

The stock pumps and the replacement pumps people have been putting in Dodge trucks are air cooled, vane pumps designed to feed carburetors.

It is the type of pump, not the brand. I'm recommending the Walbro because I know it. I can tell you it will pump diesel (and not necessarily clean diesel) at 70 PSI for 60,000 miles and not hiccup.

Once again. DO NOT BUY A PUMP UNLESS YOU SEE A PUMP CURVE AND IT LOOKS GOOD. If the manufacturer won't supply a curve, don't buy it. Not all pumps are equal.

The second difference is the bypass line. The reason we need that is because this style of pump puts out too much pressure. With the stock pumps, Dodge just hooks them up and whatever pressure they make they make. You can't do that with the Walbro. It will make pressure until it stalls at 100+ PSI or blows something up. So you need a bypass or a regulator. The fuel filter lid on my 05 cracked at about 60 PSI and spewed fuel all over my new engine. That is when/how this whole fuel system stuff started.

Those are the only two changes. Replace the stock pump with a Walbro and put a bypass or regulator in and you'll have a stout fuel system. You'll never suffer from low pressure again and the Walbro operating at 25% of its design pressure limit will probably last the life of the truck. If it doesn't, I'll personally autopsy it, tell everyone why it failed and we'll fix the systems so they prevent that problem. (The only issue I could foresee is really dirty fuel going through the pump.)

 

Excellent. Thank you for clarifying that. I'm in complete agreement on the TYPE needed and the bypass or regulator to ease the LOAD on the pump itself. I think this is what people have been missing all along in regards to long LP life. The RASP is different in that it increases flow with engine rpm and I believe that's one of the things that kills the other electric pumps. Dead heading pressure all the time when it's not needed.

JMHO

Richard

 

The #1 reason people here bought into the "FASS" hpye, can be summd up in one word. Advertising!!! That, and for a long time it was one of just a small number of options bieng used and was considered the best. Because of this, nobody thought to find a cheaper/better alternative. I guaranty one thing though, once the word gets out about SUPERDUTY's fix the "FASS" will drop considerably in price. Cause I don't care how you put it it's way over priced. Like politics, a healthy discussion of differing oppinions can only improve our community.

 

streetsmoker:

Very good points about the FASS Fuel Pumps.....................

-----------
Superduty:

You have brought up some very good points about your "Walbro Fuel Pumps"
and I respect your knowledge and lengthy explanations on them, along with the multitude of other points that have been discussed in this thread. But,........one thing that I personally have to look at and consider is; "If I were to put your Walbro on my truck and the thing fails on some lone Interstate somewhere (like happened to me with the PE PUMP twice) where do I go to get another one to replace it??" Who (auto parts stores, speed shops etc.) carries these fuel pumps across the U.S. and if they carry them, do they keep them in stock at all times?? No disrespect to you or anybody else here, but I think those are valid points in considering buying ANY aftermarket fuel pump for our Dodges! You mention "one guy (DTR Member) carrying a spare pump under his seat." IMO, I don't think that is really a bad idea. I know guys that carry not only spare fuel or lift pumps but also spare VP-44 Fuel Pumps in their trucks when they travel on long trips!!

Thanks for all your input on this thread and like "streetsmoker" points out,
"healthy discussions of differing opinions" can only help all of us here!

--------
John_P

 

I'm going to stay from that FASS statement. I used the FASS as the headline for this thread because it seemed to be the standard pump that everyone talked about. If we get a FASS delivery curve, we'll compare it like all the others.

"I'm in complete agreement on the TYPE needed and the bypass or regulator to ease the LOAD on the pump itself. I think this is what people have been missing all along in regards to long LP life. The RASP is different in that it increases flow with engine rpm and I believe that's one of the things that kills the other electric pumps. Dead heading pressure all the time when it's not needed."

This is what makes me skeptical of the skeptical of Dodge in tank retrofit pumps. First of all, I think that pump is a vane type. It almost has to be, because gerotor pumps will build big pressure if stalled. With a vane type pump, one just makes the clearance between the vanes great enough and the pump will be able to churn away without generating really high pressures. The only problem with this is that the motor load is really high when operating like this.

If you go back and look at the posts in the "All my lift pump/Walbro threads", post there is a poll on the failures of the pumps. We did not differentiate between the in tank and on engine lift pumps, but analysis seemed to show that the lift pumps on the mod'd trucks seem to last longer. Why ? I'll GUESS that the mod'd trucks are run harder and thus there is more fuel moving through the CP3, thus less stalling on the lift pumps. Another thing is that the boxes that the mod'd trucks will generally bump the injection pressure up. When it does that the internal pressure is increased in the CP3. This means more flow and less lift pump stalling or at least less current draw. All this means the lift pump lives longer.

It might turn out that the worst thing you can do for your lift pump is idle the engine.

As I've said many times, I think a good solution for the Dodge trucks would be a fuel injection type lift pump (capable of generating pressures of 80 to 100 PSI) regulated to run at 20ish PSI. I think such a pump would have a long, long time.

Unfortunately I don't think the retrofit in tank pump is a high pressure gerotor pump. And I don't see a regulator in the fuel supply system anywhere. So... rightly or wrongly, I think it is more of the same. Or at least it isn't as good as other solutions might be.

Caveat: I haven't seen an in tank lift pump, so I am guessing. But I also noticed that they didn't install a regulator anywhere in the fuel supply system when they installed the in tank systems. ( I am going by the pictures of the fuel system in the 05 shop manual here.)

 

Why are you comparing a low psi carbuerator type pump to a high psi fuel injection pump like a Walboro?

FASS is a quality product IMO and worth the money.The pump/filters are very nice.Only improvments I can see that need to be made are to ditch the push lok crapola.

***,an old Bosch pusher pump for a turbo porsche will probably work just as well.

I personally do not like the idea of running just the gs392 by itself.Running it inline with an intank pump yes,by itself NOPE.

Ive probably had 20 Walboro's over the years and yes they do fail.This is in gassers but I dont see diesel being any easier on the pump....

 

"You have brought up some very good points about your "Walbro Fuel Pumps"
and I respect your knowledge and lengthy explanations on them, along with the multitude of other points that have been discussed in this thread."

Thanks.

"But,........one thing that I personally have to look at and consider is; "If I were to put your Walbro on my truck and the thing fails on some lone Interstate somewhere (like happened to me with the PE PUMP twice) where do I go to get another one to replace it??""

I dunno. Where are you going to buy your Walbro in the first place ? Just buy one there. And if you are really worried about it failing, buy 2. And you don't have to use a Walbro. Maybe one of the auto parts retailers carries Walbro pumps.

"Who (auto parts stores, speed shops etc.) carries these fuel pumps across the U.S. and if they carry them, do they keep them in stock at all times??"

I don't know. When I started this whole posting process, I expected to tell people about these pumps and they would take if from there. With every question such as this, I get drawn deeper and deeper into implementing this setup.

If you really want a pump that is available a lot of places, you could get the Bosch used in the '99+ SuperDuties. It is available at Ford dealers. If they have it in stock.

Let me ask you this: if the pump goes out in your truck tomorrow, does your dealer have one in stock ? I think we've heard some guys in the 3rd gen forum tell us they had to wait a few days until the Dodge dealer got the replacement pumps.

"You mention "one guy (DTR Member) carrying a spare pump under his seat." IMO, I don't think that is really a bad idea. I know guys that carry not only spare fuel or lift pumps but also spare VP-44 Fuel Pumps in their trucks when they travel on long trips!!"

I wasn't making fun of him. I do think that the reason he was carrying the second pump was because he wasn't expecting the pump he put on to last very long. I'd probably do the same thing if I were in his shoes.

I am not carrying a spare pump right now, rightly or wrongly, and given that my pump easily made 60 PSI in July, I am not expecting it to quit anytime soon. I might be wrong though. If the Dodges had a pump that regularly ran 5,000 hours or 120,000 miles, one might buy the second pump and start carrying it at 100,000 miles. With what I've seen/heard thus far, the Dodge pumps can last anywhere from 6,000 miles to 100,000 miles. That makes carrying one almost mandatory.

Now... there is one more aspect to all of this. Who is going to change the lift pump when it fails ? The guys on warranty have the prerogative to call the dealer and have them pick up the truck and change the pump on Dodge's dime. Great. But dealerships aren't open at 2AM, they aren't open on Sunday or after 5PM, you have to get into their service queue, which might require a day of waiting, and they might not have a pump in stock. Furthermore, if the pump is flaky but not totally failed, they might send you on the way without doing anything for your truck.

So... I don't think ordering a Walbro over the Internet is such a bad thing. I'll change the pump myself if it goes.

But each to his own.

 

"Why are you comparing a low psi carbuerator type pump to a high psi fuel injection pump like a Walboro?"

Because I think the FASS pump is an air cooled, low pressure, vane pump. Basically an oversized carburetor pump. But I don't know that for sure. Show me a curve. What I want to see is a pump that is designed to pump at 80 or 100 PSI. Then, when you run it at 20ish PSI, it will last forever.

"an old Bosch pusher pump for a turbo porsche will probably work just as well."

There is nothing intrinsic about any fuel pump that will make it last in all situations.

It all depends what the pump was designed for. Bosch probably makes lots of pumps. The goal here is to select a pump that is well built (fuel cooled, gerotor) and designed for high pressure and then run them way under their design point. They will then last forever.

It is like using your Cummins to tow a 4,000 pound trailer. It will last forever. If you did it with a 3.5L V6, you'll have trouble.

And the only way to decide if you've got a Cummins or a V6 gasser is to look at the pump curves and how it is designed.

"I personally do not like the idea of running just the gs392 by itself.Running it inline with an intank pump yes, by itself NOPE."

Unless you give me a reason, it is just blind faith. I've given you the pump curve of the 392 and shown that it will run at 80-100 PSI without problems. What makes you think it won't run at 20 PSI.

I think there is a disbelief in the Dodge community that an electrical lift pump can last. If you go look in the Ford community, they never question their lift pumps and the Ford (Bosch) lift pumps are running at 50-60 PSI.

The only need to run the Walbro in series with the stock lift pump would be if you needed fuel pressures in excess of 100 PSI. (!!!!)

"Ive probably had 20 Walboro's over the years and yes they do fail.This is in gassers but I dont see diesel being any easier on the pump...."

Whether a lift pump lasts in an application depends on a number of things. Most importantly, how is the pump designed versus what the application requires. Walbro builds a number of lift pumps and it would be easy to put the wrong pump in the wrong application.

Like I said before: NO CURVE NO BUY.

And if you don't like Walbro pumps, you can chose from Holley, Carter, Bosch and many others. Select a stout fuel cooled high pressure gerotor pump, run it at 20 ish PSI and it will literally last forever.

Trust the CURVE. Trust the CURVE. Trust the CURVE.

It is funny that people on these boards will look at and trust dyno curves to find the power of an engine, but they won't look at a fuel pump curve to see how strong it is.

 

It is very difficult to get people to understand that not all fuel pumps are the same, as this post illustrates.

https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...408#post861408

You guys have to open up your minds a bit. Go look on the Ford sites and see how often they discuss lift pump failure. There is NO reason that the fuel system that delivers 60 PSI of fuel to the Ford injectors for over 100,000 miles can't work on a Dodge at 20 PSI.

 

Im not arguing that it wont work,just that they fail and supposedly walboro offers no warranty.Thats according to one of there vendors Racetronix.

Electric pusher pumps fail,period.Some sooner than others...

Figure in the 2 extra filters with system like FASS and AirDog.

I actually know a guy with a 500+hp Dodge that had the Ford lift pump on his and just replaced it with the AirDog.He was content with his Ford lift pump until he saw my FASS.Some people like to try to keep up with the Jones....I liked the FASS idea a whole lot better than just putting a regular old Holley pump back there.I wanted a lil bling and that along with a warranty is what I got with my FASS.

You didnt get either with the gs392

 

If you don't like Walbro, chose Holley, Carter, Bosch, etc.

As far as the filters go, I am putting a Cat 1R-750 (2 micron) on my engine between the stock fuel filter and the CP3. I'll post about it when I get it done. I think the cost will be about $45 with the filter.

Failure ? The Walbro is designed for 80-100 PSI pressures. It will run at 10-20 PSI in the Dodge. Once again, the Bosch runs just fine in Fords at 50-60 PSI. The Walbro has greater pressure capability than the Bosch. The only thing that I can see killing the Walbro is really dirty fuel. And if the regulator is put downstream of the filter, then the grit should only go through the lift pump once and it should last a long, long time.

Is the regulator built into the FASS itself ? If so then the dirty fuel will continually circulate through the pump again and again. Furthermore, there will be a pressure drop across the lines and filter at WOT.

If we really want to open this topic, I've got a bunch of posts saved up where FASS pumps have failed.

Bling ? I would rather spend my bling $$$ on things people can see, like Chrome, tires, wheels, lights, interior.

From http://www.autoperformanceengineerin.../policies.html

Walbro Fuel Pump Warranty Info

Walbro offers a one year warranty against manufacturing defects on their in-tank and external high performance fuel pumps [i.e. GSS and GSL pumps] and 90 days on their bellows pumps. Previously, they were very forgiving with their policy. They simply told vendors to return the pumps and give the customer a new pump. Pretty much a "no questions asked" warranty.
In March, 2004, we were told by Walbro that they were no longer going to blindly replace fuel pumps that were declared defective by customers. This decision was made due to an extremely high volume of pumps tested (nearly 98 percent) that proved to be non-defective. Since then, pumps were required to be sent to Walbro for testing. Even though the number of returned pumps dropped dramatically, a vast majority of returned pumps were still found to be not defective. That testing was taking a significant amount of time/effort.

Walbro says that most high-pressure pump failures can be blamed on one or more of the following:
Operating the pump without a pickup filter
Operating the pump in a dirty tank/fuel system
Operating the pump without fuel [i.e. dry]
Operating the pump in a returnless fuel system where the vehicle controls fuel pressure by modulating the voltage to the pump [e.g. '99 up Mustang].

Starting August 1, 2005, Walbro has implemented a $40.00 charge per pump for testing. If you have a fuel pump you believe has failed due to manufacturing defects, return it to APE along with a money order for $40. APE will return that pump for testing. If Walbro determines the pump failed under warranty, we will send you a new pump and your $40. If you can't wait for the test results [usually 6-8 weeks], we will sell you a replacement pump, then refund your purchase price if the pump failed due to manufacturing defects.

 

Superduty:

Thanks for your reply to my post.

I live in eastern N.C., near Wilmington and I have not seen any of the auto parts or speed shops that stock or sell "Walbro Fuel Pumps" which is why I was asking you about that. I will do some more checking though.............

I also was not trying to "draw you deeper and deeper" into this discussion as you put it, but only trying to get more information from you on the Walbro which I guess you don't have. (No offense intended there either.) In your reply you also mentioned "buying two (2) if I was worried about a failure."
I think you said the Walbro you are running costs about $300.00 right??
So, if I buy two (2), one for my truck and one for a spare I have now spent over $600.00! Heck, I could buy a complete FASS System now!
FWIW,.......as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts I am running a Holley Red right now, which cost me about $85.00 with a discount. I can buy two of those for about $170.00. You mentioned that the Walbro has a one (1) year warranty. Well,......the Holley's have a full one year warranty too if you buy them through "Advance Auto Parts" and in light of your post to me, they are open on Sundays and after 5PM. I guess for now I will get that spare Holley Red..............................................

One last thing,.........you mentioned about what we will all do if any of our pumps fail. Like you,.....I will change my own on the side of the road as I have had some practice after owning the PE pumps! Lesson learned there, I can tell you that and I have "streamilined" the process where I don't even hardly get any fuel on me now!

Thanks for the continued discussion!

--------
John_P

 

"I live in eastern N.C., near Wilmington and I have not seen any of the auto parts or speed shops that stock or sell "Walbro Fuel Pumps" which is why I was asking you about that. I will do some more checking though............."

I expect they are available. If not, you could order off the Internet. The Walbros are very popular.

"I also was not trying to "draw you deeper and deeper" into this discussion as you put it, but only trying to get more information from you on the Walbro which I guess you don't have. (No offense intended there either.)"

None taken.

"In your reply you also mentioned "buying two (2) if I was worried about a failure."
I think you said the Walbro you are running costs about $300.00 right??"

Nope. $140 each. I think it is the least expensive of all the fuel pump options for the Dodge.

"So, if I buy two (2), one for my truck and one for a spare I have now spent over $600.00! Heck, I could buy a complete FASS System now!"

Sure. But they are $140. And I'm going to go out on a limb that the Walbro is going to be more reliable than the FASS. If this question gets asked again, I am going to post links to FASS troubles. And to be equally "prepared", ie have a backup in the truck, you would need 2 FASS pumps.

"FWIW,.......as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts I am running a Holley Red right now, which cost me about $85.00 with a discount. I can buy two of those for about $170.00."

That is great. You are almost assured of a failure. Way up this post we determined the Holleys had a design pressure of 7 PSI. And they will be running at 15 PSI.

And the "savings" on the fuel pump isn't the issue. What you really need to focus on is extending the life of the VP44 or CP3. I don't recommend saving $140-$85=$55 at the expense of wrecking one of these pumps.

"You mentioned that the Walbro has a one (1) year warranty. Well,......the Holley's have a full one year warranty too if you buy them through "Advance Auto Parts" and in light of your post to me, they are open on Sundays and after 5PM. I guess for now I will get that spare Holley Red."

Its your decision. I've presented an alternative and it is up to you to decide.

BTW: The Red Holley is partnumber 12-801-1. You can read about it here:
http://www.holley.com/types.asp?type=76

Its rated flow is 71 GPH at a rated pressure of ****4 PSI****. The Holley Blue pump is rated at 7 PSI and has a maximum of 14 PSI.

The maximum pressure on the Holly Red pump is 7 PSI, according to here:
http://www.holley.com/products.asp?product=12-801-1

So either you are going to under pressure/supply your injection pump OR you are going to WAY overload the Holley Red pump. It is a no win solution.

I don't mean to be rude, but the Holley Red pump is probably just about the worst pump you could find for this application. It is a low pressure carburetor type pump.

Like I said. TRUST THE CURVES.

Added in edit...

I don't understand why people are in love with the Carter and Holley carburetor type lift pumps. The VP44 owners are trying to supply VP44s with 15 PSI. Throw in some filter and line pressure and that is outside of the capabilities of these pumps, if you want them to live anyway. And yet one can go on DTR, TDR and dieselRam and people think they are great. They appear to have a long history of failure too. It isn't just a recent thing. I don't get it.

The Red Holley is rated at 4PSI with a max of 7 PSI. They are using it in an application calling for ~20 PSI. And because of this it fails. But they still use them. But if I tell them they should try a Walbro rated at 80-100 PSI, they tell me the failure rate will be just as bad. I don't follow the logic.

I keep telling people to look at the flow curves. Either they don't trust those curves or they aren't looking at them.

I still don't think people are understanding the difference between a high pressure fuel cooled gerotor fuel injection lift pump and an air cooled, low pressure vane type carburetor lift pump. They are two different beasts.

When I make the point that the Walbro will easily supply fuel for a 500 HP engine people are doubtful. Somehow they think they need a special 150 GPH pump with large lines on the engine or a Holley pump feeding the stock lift pump or even a mechanical driven pump.

Just look at the Walbro supply curve. It will do 70 GPH at 30 PSI and do it for years and years. 70 gallons per hour is 500 pounds per hour, which is enough to feed 1250HP ! (Albeit with no excess flow...) 1000 HP with excess flow. How many Cummins 5.9s make 1000 HP ?

I dunno if the Dodge community will ever come to fully realize these points. They are not thinking about lift pumps in a rational manner. Somehow people have it in their mind that if the 95 GPH pump isn't up to the task, they need 150 GPH. 150 gallons per hour is over 1000 pounds of fuel an hour, which is enough to feed 2500 HP. Sheesh !

The problem isn't a lack of flow. In fact the pumps that people are selecting are WAY oversized flow wise. The problem is a lack of pressure which manifests itself in two ways. First the pumps burn out because they are operating at a load higher than what they were designed for. Second, they fail to deliver the fuel to the injection pump because the flow falls way off when the pressure goes up.

Another problem is the location of the regulator. Apparently it is revolutionary to a) use a bypass line at the injection pump and b) put the regulator at the injection pump in the bypass line. Thus the problem with pump supply pressures dropping off at WOT relative to idle.

People seem to look at the FASS as the God of lift pumps when in fact it seems to have limited pressure capabilities, its flow rate is way, way in excess of what is needed and the regulator is in the wrong location. The argument always comes back to comparing the Walbro with the FASS, the Carter and the Holley, like they are the epitome of lift pumps.