What is so great about FASS ???
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From: NW Indiana
I've got to read thru this stuff a few times before it sinks in my thick skull. But I'm finally understanding it all and I'm designing/tweaking it for my application. When complete, I will post hopefully with pictures.
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"No. Please don't remove this (unless I can correspond directly with you for help). It is very valuable to me an should be to others."
I was referring to the two posts about modding the fan for the RASP. I'll leave the rest of the post alone.
I was referring to the two posts about modding the fan for the RASP. I'll leave the rest of the post alone.
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"I'm a bit surprised that nobody much is talking about what F.A.S.S. stands for and how much the A.S. part means as whether it is a valid concern or not."
I've purposely stayed away from the air in fuel stuff because I don't want to spend 10 days arguing about it. I'm happy that the "lift pumps work harder sucking than pushing" stuff has more or less died.
OK... someone is telling you that diesel fuel has 10% air in it, right ?
The diesel fuel I buy at the pumps is 7 pounds per gallon.
Are you telling me that when the FASS gets done with it, it weighs 7.7 pounds per gallon ? Isn't that what would happen if we removed the 10% air ? Obviously not.
Another thing. These 10 and 20% gains power gains should be quantifiable. Someone **independent** needs to rig up a dual fuel system on a **truck** and do back to back runs. 10-20% is 32.5 to 65HP on a 325. Have you ever seen someone gain 65 HP by putting on a FASS ? And the only way those gains could occur would be by increasing the fuel delivered to the combustion chamber. So EGTs would go up.
And one more thing. 3rd gens are common rail engines with a rail pressure sensor. If the fuel had that much air in it and it was truly affecting things the way people say it is, the ECM would be throwing rail pressure error codes. But it isn't. By the time the fuel gets compressed to 4,000 to 23,000 PSI, any air that is present has long disolved back into the fuel. Furthermore, depending on the temperature, air is a LIQUID at these sorts of pressures.
All liquids have the potential to harbor dissolved gasses in them. Carbonated water, for example. Diesel fuel is a hydrocarbon and that means that not only does it have the potential to hold gasses (air), the flash point of its liquid component is near atmospheric pressure and engine temps and if it isn't treated right the fuel will flash. (Flash = change liquid into vapor.). But as long as the fuel gets recompressed the gaseous portion goes back to liquid before it gets injected into the combustion chamber, nothing is lost. Truth is that with most fuel systems the fuel never flashes in the first place.
If you don't believe me, weigh some Coca cola fresh from the bottle (at steady state, ie not fizzing away, it will have to be cold) and then let it sit for a few days until all the fizz is gone. You have the same fluid volume and mass. You haven't lost anything except some CO2 gas that was dissolved in the pop. (You will have to cover the glass to prevent evaporation.)
There is very little air entrained in diesel fuel as it sits in a storage tank or even your trucks fuel tank. It is possible to add a lot of air to diesel fuel if it is handled improperly in the fuel system. But by the time the lift pump compresses it a few PSI and the CP3 internal pump compresses it to 80-180 PSI and then to 4000-26,000 PSI, any air that is in the fuel is WELL dissolved.
I've read the claims of 20HP gains and such. That might happen if one was using a positive displacement fuel pump like the VP44, P7100 or VE and the chambers on the pumping elements were not filling, ie they had 10% air in them. Otherwise there is no way for this to happen*. And Bosch has purposely designed the pumping chambers and set the fuel supply specs so that the chambers are full when the pumping begins.
Here is one way to think about this: as long as the liquid is under pressure, the gas stays dissolved. Take your fresh cola bottle, unopened and shake it. It fizzes a bit but not much. The CO2 stays dissolved because the liquid is pressurized. Now release the pressure by opening the cap. What happens ? It overflows the bottle. All the CO2 comes out. Gases dissolved in fuels don't cause any problem if they are pressurized. And to properly determine if the fuel has gasses in it, one would have to observe it under pressure. That means it must be viewed in a clear hose, under pressure.
*There is no way for this to happen because liquids themselves hardly compress at all. The change in density of a liquid from room temp to very high temps is quite small. As long as the pumping chamber is filled with a liquid and the gaseous component is dissolved in that liquid it doesn't matter.
Furthermore, **IF** there is an fuel supply issue on the 3rd gen trucks, it will manifest itself in a ECM error code indicating the rail isn't at sufficient pressure. The rail operates at pressures from 4,000 to 26,000 PSI. At those pressures, everthing is a liquid. Heck even oxygen is a liquid at 4,000 PSI. (Depends on temperature, of course...)
One other thing. One of the easiest ways to flash fuel is to suck it at high velocity on the suction side of a pump. (ie through a small hose) This is because the suction side of the pump operates at a vacuum and the velocity pressure component of the fuel will be high, thus what is termed the static pressure on the fuel will be low. One great way to do this would be to stick a big pump (say 150 GPH) on a small line (say 3/8").
Unless someone is doing something really silly with the fuel before it gets to the pump, you don't have to worry about air in the fuel.
"I have STUDIED SuperDuty's solution, and I like it a lot, but if I understand correctly, the FASS will not overpressure either the CP3 or the fuel filter, and it's a complete kit, right?"
I've stated several times that a) you can't really hurt the CP3 with over pressure and b) you have to install the bypass or a regulator to use a Walbro type pump. The stock pump doesn't need a bypass because it doesn't make enough fuel pressure to damage anything. So over pressuring the CP3 is a moot point.
Now lets tackle over pressuring the filter element. Dodge/Cummins/Fleetguard don't give us a pressure rating on the filter element itself. And while we are at it, it is the pressure rating across the filter that we need to worry about, not the overall pressure of the system. Although the filter canister lid will blow up at about 60 PSI...
So, yes, if we set the FASS regulator to 20 PSI and the filter plugs solid, the filter probably won't burst. But at the same time, no fuel is getting to the CP3 ! And if we are pumping with the Walbro and we continue to run that dirty filter and let the pressure build to 25, 30, 40.. PSI, sooner or later it will burst the filter element.
Either way in this scenario you have to run a gauge to know if your filter is plugging. With the FASS you need to know when the CP3 is starving. You will probably mount the gauge at the CP3. With the Walbro you need to know when the element is plugging. You will probably mount the gauge upstream of the filter.
The difference is that when the going gets tough, the Walbro is going to push the fuel to the CP3, where as the FASS will starve it. It is just up to the owner to change the filter before it causes a problem.
With the FASS you have to watch the gauge for CP3 starvation. With the Walbro you have to watch it to prevent filter bursting.
Two more things.
If we are REALLY worried about our Walbro bursting our filter, we could mount the regulator upstream of the filter. Then the Walbro would act the same as the FASS as far as the filter protection is concerned.
And if we really wanted to be paranoid, we could equip the system with 2 regulators. One upstream of the filter, set at say, 30 PSI, to protect the filter from getting over pressured, and another at the injection pump to set our working pressure. ( I am drawing 30 PSI from out of the air... I don't know what the exact burst pressure on the filter element might be.)
So the over pressure argument is kind of mute.
But, I will argue that we don't want the regulator upstream of the filter, because if we put it there, we will get pressure drops under WOT conditions, as I previously explained.
Now... I can see the next question... what if I want finer filtering than the stock 10 micron filters ? Stay tuned... I just bought a Cat 1R-0750 2 micron filter. It costs about $12. I'll be putting it on my truck when I get a chance. And I didn't pay Cat $150 for the filter mount kit either.
My goal here is to make sure my CP3 and injectors live for as long as the rest of the engine.
Who knew fuel supply systems could be so complicated ?
I've purposely stayed away from the air in fuel stuff because I don't want to spend 10 days arguing about it. I'm happy that the "lift pumps work harder sucking than pushing" stuff has more or less died.
OK... someone is telling you that diesel fuel has 10% air in it, right ?
The diesel fuel I buy at the pumps is 7 pounds per gallon.
Are you telling me that when the FASS gets done with it, it weighs 7.7 pounds per gallon ? Isn't that what would happen if we removed the 10% air ? Obviously not.
Another thing. These 10 and 20% gains power gains should be quantifiable. Someone **independent** needs to rig up a dual fuel system on a **truck** and do back to back runs. 10-20% is 32.5 to 65HP on a 325. Have you ever seen someone gain 65 HP by putting on a FASS ? And the only way those gains could occur would be by increasing the fuel delivered to the combustion chamber. So EGTs would go up.
And one more thing. 3rd gens are common rail engines with a rail pressure sensor. If the fuel had that much air in it and it was truly affecting things the way people say it is, the ECM would be throwing rail pressure error codes. But it isn't. By the time the fuel gets compressed to 4,000 to 23,000 PSI, any air that is present has long disolved back into the fuel. Furthermore, depending on the temperature, air is a LIQUID at these sorts of pressures.
All liquids have the potential to harbor dissolved gasses in them. Carbonated water, for example. Diesel fuel is a hydrocarbon and that means that not only does it have the potential to hold gasses (air), the flash point of its liquid component is near atmospheric pressure and engine temps and if it isn't treated right the fuel will flash. (Flash = change liquid into vapor.). But as long as the fuel gets recompressed the gaseous portion goes back to liquid before it gets injected into the combustion chamber, nothing is lost. Truth is that with most fuel systems the fuel never flashes in the first place.
If you don't believe me, weigh some Coca cola fresh from the bottle (at steady state, ie not fizzing away, it will have to be cold) and then let it sit for a few days until all the fizz is gone. You have the same fluid volume and mass. You haven't lost anything except some CO2 gas that was dissolved in the pop. (You will have to cover the glass to prevent evaporation.)
There is very little air entrained in diesel fuel as it sits in a storage tank or even your trucks fuel tank. It is possible to add a lot of air to diesel fuel if it is handled improperly in the fuel system. But by the time the lift pump compresses it a few PSI and the CP3 internal pump compresses it to 80-180 PSI and then to 4000-26,000 PSI, any air that is in the fuel is WELL dissolved.
I've read the claims of 20HP gains and such. That might happen if one was using a positive displacement fuel pump like the VP44, P7100 or VE and the chambers on the pumping elements were not filling, ie they had 10% air in them. Otherwise there is no way for this to happen*. And Bosch has purposely designed the pumping chambers and set the fuel supply specs so that the chambers are full when the pumping begins.
Here is one way to think about this: as long as the liquid is under pressure, the gas stays dissolved. Take your fresh cola bottle, unopened and shake it. It fizzes a bit but not much. The CO2 stays dissolved because the liquid is pressurized. Now release the pressure by opening the cap. What happens ? It overflows the bottle. All the CO2 comes out. Gases dissolved in fuels don't cause any problem if they are pressurized. And to properly determine if the fuel has gasses in it, one would have to observe it under pressure. That means it must be viewed in a clear hose, under pressure.
*There is no way for this to happen because liquids themselves hardly compress at all. The change in density of a liquid from room temp to very high temps is quite small. As long as the pumping chamber is filled with a liquid and the gaseous component is dissolved in that liquid it doesn't matter.
Furthermore, **IF** there is an fuel supply issue on the 3rd gen trucks, it will manifest itself in a ECM error code indicating the rail isn't at sufficient pressure. The rail operates at pressures from 4,000 to 26,000 PSI. At those pressures, everthing is a liquid. Heck even oxygen is a liquid at 4,000 PSI. (Depends on temperature, of course...)
One other thing. One of the easiest ways to flash fuel is to suck it at high velocity on the suction side of a pump. (ie through a small hose) This is because the suction side of the pump operates at a vacuum and the velocity pressure component of the fuel will be high, thus what is termed the static pressure on the fuel will be low. One great way to do this would be to stick a big pump (say 150 GPH) on a small line (say 3/8").
Unless someone is doing something really silly with the fuel before it gets to the pump, you don't have to worry about air in the fuel.
"I have STUDIED SuperDuty's solution, and I like it a lot, but if I understand correctly, the FASS will not overpressure either the CP3 or the fuel filter, and it's a complete kit, right?"
I've stated several times that a) you can't really hurt the CP3 with over pressure and b) you have to install the bypass or a regulator to use a Walbro type pump. The stock pump doesn't need a bypass because it doesn't make enough fuel pressure to damage anything. So over pressuring the CP3 is a moot point.
Now lets tackle over pressuring the filter element. Dodge/Cummins/Fleetguard don't give us a pressure rating on the filter element itself. And while we are at it, it is the pressure rating across the filter that we need to worry about, not the overall pressure of the system. Although the filter canister lid will blow up at about 60 PSI...
So, yes, if we set the FASS regulator to 20 PSI and the filter plugs solid, the filter probably won't burst. But at the same time, no fuel is getting to the CP3 ! And if we are pumping with the Walbro and we continue to run that dirty filter and let the pressure build to 25, 30, 40.. PSI, sooner or later it will burst the filter element.
Either way in this scenario you have to run a gauge to know if your filter is plugging. With the FASS you need to know when the CP3 is starving. You will probably mount the gauge at the CP3. With the Walbro you need to know when the element is plugging. You will probably mount the gauge upstream of the filter.
The difference is that when the going gets tough, the Walbro is going to push the fuel to the CP3, where as the FASS will starve it. It is just up to the owner to change the filter before it causes a problem.
With the FASS you have to watch the gauge for CP3 starvation. With the Walbro you have to watch it to prevent filter bursting.
Two more things.
If we are REALLY worried about our Walbro bursting our filter, we could mount the regulator upstream of the filter. Then the Walbro would act the same as the FASS as far as the filter protection is concerned.
And if we really wanted to be paranoid, we could equip the system with 2 regulators. One upstream of the filter, set at say, 30 PSI, to protect the filter from getting over pressured, and another at the injection pump to set our working pressure. ( I am drawing 30 PSI from out of the air... I don't know what the exact burst pressure on the filter element might be.)
So the over pressure argument is kind of mute.
But, I will argue that we don't want the regulator upstream of the filter, because if we put it there, we will get pressure drops under WOT conditions, as I previously explained.
Now... I can see the next question... what if I want finer filtering than the stock 10 micron filters ? Stay tuned... I just bought a Cat 1R-0750 2 micron filter. It costs about $12. I'll be putting it on my truck when I get a chance. And I didn't pay Cat $150 for the filter mount kit either.
My goal here is to make sure my CP3 and injectors live for as long as the rest of the engine.
Who knew fuel supply systems could be so complicated ?
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The image that compares the operation with the regulator before the filter and at the injection pump has been added. You can see it a few posts back.
I've been told that the stock trucks use a Carter 74213 fuel pump.
The carter web page is here:
http://www.carterfueldelivery.com/fu...s/electric.php
Here is what they say about their lift pumps.
==================================================
Rotary vane design
Originally created for military use, this design has been in production longer than any other Carter model. Rotating vanes driven by a heavy-duty wet motor deliver pressure from 4 to 18 psi at a flow rate of up to 100 gallons per hour. This provides excellent lift and prime capability. The pump is available in 6-, 12- and 24-volt versions. It is appropriate for RV, marine, agricultural, industrial and performance applications.
Carotor® Gerotor design
Carter Carotor universal pump applications range from carburetor to TBI & MFI systems. They are also used in many OE-type hanger and module assemblies. The gerotor is unquestionably the most versatile pump design today. It utilizes a unique gear and rotor eccentric mechanism that squeezes the fuel within the pump to create high pressure with very little pulsation. Compact, lightweight and fuel-cooled, it is a current favorite of many OE manufacturers. EFI marine manufacturers are also installing these robust gerotors to meet their fuel delivery demands.
================================================== ==
The 74213 is a Rotory Vane design. I couldn't find any specs for it to compare with the Walbro.
People are paying $180 at NAPA for the Carter pump. The Walbro should run about $140. Some trucks have gone through 2 or 3 replacement Carter pumps. I don't see the logic of replacing a failed pump with the same model.
The guy that went through 3 pumps told us that 2 failed for electrical reasons, basically the motor stopped turning and the third failed when whatever was holding the impeller onto the motor shaft disappeared.
The motor failures were predictable. See my spiels on the Holley and Carter pumps being designed for low pressure carburetor use and operating in the Dodge at the upper edge of their design pressure limits. Remember the Walbro is designed to operate in the 60 to 80 PSI region. The motor in it will last forever running at 20 PSI.
I couldn't predict the impeller coming loose from the motor shaft except that the higher pressure puts more load on the impeller.
But apparently it isn't uncommon as this shows:
=================================================
"Same exact thing happened to my pump about two years ago. Was replaced under warranty."
...
"The impeller rotor is pressed on the motor shaft using a plastic or nylon bushing. The bushing must deteriorate after while."
...
"Ahh that makes sence, my dad couldnt figure out why yhe shaft wasnt connected, he thought that the bushing fell out when he opened it up, but deteriorateing makes sence....i guess it deteriates then spins freely and burns up....more to the mystery of the lift pump..."
...
"Is there a replacement for that bushing, our wekept the pump and the pump runs fine, just w/o that bushing it wont spin, so if we could geta replacement bushing we have a backup bushing"
...
"If I keep my old pump I would have made a bushing out of brass and press it back on."
==================================================
These lift pumps were designed to pump gasoline to a carburetor at 5 PSI. They've been extended to 10-15 PSI, but they are out of their league. The gerotor pumps are more than up to this task.
When you start looking at the number of failures and how they failed and the fact that some trucks have had 3 and 4 lift pumps fail, it is almost funny. I know it isn't funny to the owners, but you guys must have to keep a lift pump in your back pocket to keep the truck running because you never know when it will fail.
Time to try something different, right ?
I think the reason the gerotor pumps have never been used on the Dodges is because of the pressure. The Carter and in tank pump on the 05s don't appear to have a pressure relief anywhere. They just pump as much fuel as they can and whatever pressure develops, great. I don't see how that can promote a long pump life.
Conversely, the Walbro and other fuel injection type lift pumps are designed to push pressures of 100 PSI or more. They are then run in conjunction with a regulator that keeps them operating at pressures much lower than that.
I've been told that the stock trucks use a Carter 74213 fuel pump.
The carter web page is here:
http://www.carterfueldelivery.com/fu...s/electric.php
Here is what they say about their lift pumps.
==================================================
Rotary vane design
Originally created for military use, this design has been in production longer than any other Carter model. Rotating vanes driven by a heavy-duty wet motor deliver pressure from 4 to 18 psi at a flow rate of up to 100 gallons per hour. This provides excellent lift and prime capability. The pump is available in 6-, 12- and 24-volt versions. It is appropriate for RV, marine, agricultural, industrial and performance applications.
Carotor® Gerotor design
Carter Carotor universal pump applications range from carburetor to TBI & MFI systems. They are also used in many OE-type hanger and module assemblies. The gerotor is unquestionably the most versatile pump design today. It utilizes a unique gear and rotor eccentric mechanism that squeezes the fuel within the pump to create high pressure with very little pulsation. Compact, lightweight and fuel-cooled, it is a current favorite of many OE manufacturers. EFI marine manufacturers are also installing these robust gerotors to meet their fuel delivery demands.
================================================== ==
The 74213 is a Rotory Vane design. I couldn't find any specs for it to compare with the Walbro.
People are paying $180 at NAPA for the Carter pump. The Walbro should run about $140. Some trucks have gone through 2 or 3 replacement Carter pumps. I don't see the logic of replacing a failed pump with the same model.
The guy that went through 3 pumps told us that 2 failed for electrical reasons, basically the motor stopped turning and the third failed when whatever was holding the impeller onto the motor shaft disappeared.
The motor failures were predictable. See my spiels on the Holley and Carter pumps being designed for low pressure carburetor use and operating in the Dodge at the upper edge of their design pressure limits. Remember the Walbro is designed to operate in the 60 to 80 PSI region. The motor in it will last forever running at 20 PSI.
I couldn't predict the impeller coming loose from the motor shaft except that the higher pressure puts more load on the impeller.
But apparently it isn't uncommon as this shows:
=================================================
"Same exact thing happened to my pump about two years ago. Was replaced under warranty."
...
"The impeller rotor is pressed on the motor shaft using a plastic or nylon bushing. The bushing must deteriorate after while."
...
"Ahh that makes sence, my dad couldnt figure out why yhe shaft wasnt connected, he thought that the bushing fell out when he opened it up, but deteriorateing makes sence....i guess it deteriates then spins freely and burns up....more to the mystery of the lift pump..."
...
"Is there a replacement for that bushing, our wekept the pump and the pump runs fine, just w/o that bushing it wont spin, so if we could geta replacement bushing we have a backup bushing"
...
"If I keep my old pump I would have made a bushing out of brass and press it back on."
==================================================
These lift pumps were designed to pump gasoline to a carburetor at 5 PSI. They've been extended to 10-15 PSI, but they are out of their league. The gerotor pumps are more than up to this task.
When you start looking at the number of failures and how they failed and the fact that some trucks have had 3 and 4 lift pumps fail, it is almost funny. I know it isn't funny to the owners, but you guys must have to keep a lift pump in your back pocket to keep the truck running because you never know when it will fail.
Time to try something different, right ?
I think the reason the gerotor pumps have never been used on the Dodges is because of the pressure. The Carter and in tank pump on the 05s don't appear to have a pressure relief anywhere. They just pump as much fuel as they can and whatever pressure develops, great. I don't see how that can promote a long pump life.
Conversely, the Walbro and other fuel injection type lift pumps are designed to push pressures of 100 PSI or more. They are then run in conjunction with a regulator that keeps them operating at pressures much lower than that.
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That is a good high pressure Gerotor fuel injection type pump !
I think it is designed for gasoline ( 1 gallon = 6.5 lbs ?).
That pump has HUGE, HUGE volume. At 40 PSI it is pumping 950 pounds per hour of gasoline, which is 150 GPH. I think it is WAY overkill for a Cummins. Go back and look at my volume calcs.
The output falls off a bit faster (steeper) than the Walbro as the pressure goes up, but it would be FAR better than a carburetor type pump.
I don't like the housing that much. I would prefer it was rubber isolated, but maybe it is inside the aluminum shell.
It is a huge step in the right direction. If they had one half that volume output would be better.
I'd find out if it will work with diesel. Not all pumps will. The motor components, which run in the fuel, have to be designed especially for it.
The 11108 is better in terms of flow.
http://216.242.145.16/products/produ...l?p=44&large=2
I don't like the 2000 hour thing. That is fine in a boat that only gets used a bit, but a little light in a truck.
==================================================
HP Extreme Duty Fuel Pump for Carbureted or EFI Fuel Delivery.
Three years of exhaustive research in composite materials, coatings, and electric motor technologies, combined with Aeromotive's unrivaled expertise in fuel system design, brings new standards to the marine industry. This new Aeromotive pump is the one and only pump in the world engineered to flow this kind of volume, at pressures from carburetor to EFI, with the built-in durability to survive over 2000 hours of continuous run time. Meet the toughest, most versatile and powerful fuel pump ever offered to the marine industry. Complete with a full, two year, factory direct warranty to back it up.
==================================================
Notice that the "toughest, most versatile and powerful" fuel pump ISN'T a vane pump !
They don't say what pressure the 2000 hours is at.
Note the HP ratings even for this smaller pump are 800 HP for forced induction and 1100 is for natural. The difference is because the fuel pressure gets referenced off of the intake air pressure so the ECM doesn't have to compensate. As intake air pressure (boost) goes up, so does the fuel pressure.
I'd still chose a Walbro over this one.
With either of these pumps you still need a regulator.
How much are they ?
Definitely a step in the right direction.
One more thing: pumps with output this high need to have a larger than stock suction line or they will flash the fuel on the suction side. I bet the big pump needs a 1/2" suction line to keep the fuel velocity down.
Here is a piece of advice: DO NOT EVER BUY A PUMP WITHOUT SEEING ITS DELIVERY CURVE. NO CURVE, NO BUY. Got it ? And I am not just talking about high performance applications. These curves show how easy it is to buy the wrong pump for the application.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 576
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From: IL
The pump is rather expensive. it is rated for diesel as aeromotive states-Compatible with all pump and racing gasolines, including EPA oxygenated, and high grade diesel fuels.
The truck that the pump would be going on is not your normal every day truck,it is used primarily for drag racing so lets just say it has a decent amount of horse power(can't give any secrets away)so the truck needs a good pump before the cp3.
Thanks for the reply,
Howling
The truck that the pump would be going on is not your normal every day truck,it is used primarily for drag racing so lets just say it has a decent amount of horse power(can't give any secrets away)so the truck needs a good pump before the cp3.
Thanks for the reply,
Howling
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Well, Howling, you found the right pump.
That big pump is huge. The curve starts at 40 PSI. Take that back to 30 PSI and you have 1000 lbs per hour of gasoline, which is nearly 1200 lbs of diesel per hour. To give you some idea, 250HP diesel engines burn less than 100 pounds of diesel an hour. You could literally fuel a locomotive with the big pump.
These pumps are far, far superior to a FASS.
You are going to run the regulator at the CP3, right ?
You might need to increase the line size and maybe filter area to run that kind of fuel flow right to the pump. You could run it with the stock lines and see how much backpressure you get. The pump has tons of pressure capability.
It must draw 30A under full load.
That big pump is huge. The curve starts at 40 PSI. Take that back to 30 PSI and you have 1000 lbs per hour of gasoline, which is nearly 1200 lbs of diesel per hour. To give you some idea, 250HP diesel engines burn less than 100 pounds of diesel an hour. You could literally fuel a locomotive with the big pump.
These pumps are far, far superior to a FASS.
You are going to run the regulator at the CP3, right ?
You might need to increase the line size and maybe filter area to run that kind of fuel flow right to the pump. You could run it with the stock lines and see how much backpressure you get. The pump has tons of pressure capability.
It must draw 30A under full load.
Administrator
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,311
Likes: 52
From: Holly Ridge, N.C.
I agree with "Superduty" on the "air in diesel fuel" theory. Not to "ruffle any feathers" here, but, that theory has never made much sense to me for the exact reasons "Superduty" states in his explanation. IMO, dirty diesel fuel is MUCH more of a concern to our trucks and the pumps we are talking about than air is.
--------
Howling:
You posted the link to that USCG "Aeromotive #11110 Fuel Pump." FWIW,....DTR Member "Jetpilot" (AKA: Doug Smith) put a similar designed Aeromotive Fuel Pump (I believe it was the #AE-1000 model) in his twin turbo'ed 2001 Dodge CTD 24 valve. That fuel pump not only failed, but according to Doug "exploded" not long after he sold the truck to another person. Maybe he will get on here and tell the story of exactly what happened.
----------
Aeromotive makes several versions of that pump, all are basically the same internal design: Here are the ones that I am familiar with:
1.) Aeromotive AE #1000 500 lbs. per hr @ 45psi
2.) AeromotiveAEI #11102 900 lbs. per hr@ 45 psi
-----------
"Superduty" asked, "How much are they?"
The Aeromotive AE #1000 lists for $295.00 @ Summit Racing.
The Aeromotive AEI#11102 lists for $609.95@Summit Racing.
-------
John_P
--------
Howling:
You posted the link to that USCG "Aeromotive #11110 Fuel Pump." FWIW,....DTR Member "Jetpilot" (AKA: Doug Smith) put a similar designed Aeromotive Fuel Pump (I believe it was the #AE-1000 model) in his twin turbo'ed 2001 Dodge CTD 24 valve. That fuel pump not only failed, but according to Doug "exploded" not long after he sold the truck to another person. Maybe he will get on here and tell the story of exactly what happened.
----------
Aeromotive makes several versions of that pump, all are basically the same internal design: Here are the ones that I am familiar with:
1.) Aeromotive AE #1000 500 lbs. per hr @ 45psi
2.) AeromotiveAEI #11102 900 lbs. per hr@ 45 psi
-----------
"Superduty" asked, "How much are they?"
The Aeromotive AE #1000 lists for $295.00 @ Summit Racing.
The Aeromotive AEI#11102 lists for $609.95@Summit Racing.
-------
John_P
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 576
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From: IL
Originally Posted by John_P
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Howling:
You posted the link to that USCG "Aeromotive #11110 Fuel Pump." FWIW,....DTR Member "Jetpilot" (AKA: Doug Smith) put a similar designed Aeromotive Fuel Pump (I believe it was the #AE-1000 model) in his twin turbo'ed 2001 Dodge CTD 24 valve. That fuel pump not only failed, but according to Doug "exploded" not long after he sold the truck to another person. Maybe he will get on here and tell the story of exactly what happened.
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Aeromotive makes several versions of that pump, all are basically the same internal design: Here are the ones that I am familiar with:
1.) Aeromotive AE #1000 500 lbs. per hr @ 45psi
2.) AeromotiveAEI #11102 900 lbs. per hr@ 45 psi
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"Superduty" asked, "How much are they?"
The Aeromotive AE #1000 lists for $295.00 @ Summit Racing.
The Aeromotive AEI#11102 lists for $609.95@Summit Racing.
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John_P
The pump I'm looking at #11110 is a marine grade pump that is rated for diesel fuel.The other Aeromotive pumps #1000,#11102 are not rated for diesel fuel or at least that is what the web site says.So maybe that is why it did not last just a theory .
Thread Starter
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The fuel cooled pumps have to be especially designed for diesel use. The fuel (diesel) is in contact with the brushes and armatures and windings. I think they have to use special brushes in the diesel models.
"Superduty you don't get out much do you? "
Nope. Not right now. My wife is in her first trimester of pregnancy and going through the nausea stage. We've (I've) been pretty much housebound since before Christmas. She sleeps a lot and I stay nearby with my laptop. This website has been a welcome distraction. She is starting to feel better these days. When she starts feeling well you won't hear much from me.
Don't tell anyone we are pregnant, OK ? <chuckle> You guys are the first to know.
"Did you check out the links to the rasp?"
Not in detail. Rightly or wrongly I can't justify putting a mechanical pump on the engine, especially when it still needs an electric pump to run. It should have been made to self prime. The CP3 does when it runs on the Duramax.
I'm just turned off of it.
If I get bored I'll look at it.
I am happy that my spiel on air didn't start a big ruckus. So far anyway.
re: Aeromotive pmps.
If you REALLY need that much fuel, I'd run two Walbros. You guys are probably sick of hearing that name, but they are a great little pump. Put them in parallel. Put a checkvalve on the output of each one so that if one fails the flow doesn't go back through the failed pump and starve the lift pump. Put the regulator at the lift pump.
Someday someone is going to test a Walbro and find it really performs. They'll report back here and that will be the new standard in the high performance pump for the Dodge Cummins trucks.
What you guys have gone through with lift pumps is incredible. I am trying to change that. Why, I don't know, but I am. It is a little discouraging that people aren't getting it. Yesterday a couple people replaced their on engine lift pumps with another Carter pump. One guy carries a spare under his seat. The definition of insane is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Everyone understands how a fuel injection gerotor type lift pump cooled by fuel is different than the carter vane pump, right ? Oh well... I've tried.
My wife is feeling better. That is all for now.
"Superduty you don't get out much do you? "
Nope. Not right now. My wife is in her first trimester of pregnancy and going through the nausea stage. We've (I've) been pretty much housebound since before Christmas. She sleeps a lot and I stay nearby with my laptop. This website has been a welcome distraction. She is starting to feel better these days. When she starts feeling well you won't hear much from me.
Don't tell anyone we are pregnant, OK ? <chuckle> You guys are the first to know.
"Did you check out the links to the rasp?"
Not in detail. Rightly or wrongly I can't justify putting a mechanical pump on the engine, especially when it still needs an electric pump to run. It should have been made to self prime. The CP3 does when it runs on the Duramax.
I'm just turned off of it.
If I get bored I'll look at it.
I am happy that my spiel on air didn't start a big ruckus. So far anyway.
re: Aeromotive pmps.
If you REALLY need that much fuel, I'd run two Walbros. You guys are probably sick of hearing that name, but they are a great little pump. Put them in parallel. Put a checkvalve on the output of each one so that if one fails the flow doesn't go back through the failed pump and starve the lift pump. Put the regulator at the lift pump.
Someday someone is going to test a Walbro and find it really performs. They'll report back here and that will be the new standard in the high performance pump for the Dodge Cummins trucks.
What you guys have gone through with lift pumps is incredible. I am trying to change that. Why, I don't know, but I am. It is a little discouraging that people aren't getting it. Yesterday a couple people replaced their on engine lift pumps with another Carter pump. One guy carries a spare under his seat. The definition of insane is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Everyone understands how a fuel injection gerotor type lift pump cooled by fuel is different than the carter vane pump, right ? Oh well... I've tried.
My wife is feeling better. That is all for now.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4
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From: Astoria, OR
If I was to run this system with the Walbro, what precautions would I need to know about concerning disconnecting the fuel lines at the cp3?
Also, was it determined or not if we need something to fool the ecm when connecting the higher draw motor of the walbro?
Also, was it determined or not if we need something to fool the ecm when connecting the higher draw motor of the walbro?