What is so great about FASS ???
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From: FEDERAL WAY, WA
Originally Posted by king d
yes is know the blue wont push the 20 under normal conditions,the black wont be as hard a push to get it.i do not have a regulator on the truck currently but i will be adding oneto get the disired pressures set,i still contend that the holleys will move more fuel at the pressures they work in than the walbro will its optimal pressure,as far as the 20 psi i can even work that on the blue,i will boost a pump charge it to get my results,i am looking for flow only as i believe that to be most important,also 20 psi is about as high as you need to go wit out starting to get some chance of rough idle.many trucks duramaxes at least have had rough idle when inlet pressure exceeds 23 psi...i have the number off the page you linked for the walbro and the pump and part number.i hope to use nipples and fittings i have on hand and will fab a p[ressur gauge to runthe tests if the walbro suplies more fuel i will do the trick install,if not its the local classifieds
I feel most everyone has missed the boat on this one. And I too have played with diffrent fueling combos on my Chev. Are you saying that some DMaxes are running 20 plus psi through their P of S factory fuel filter?
Opie
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From: FEDERAL WAY, WA
king d,
I only mentioned it because I was able to take out mine as well as the injection contol unit while designing my mechanical pump system.
On the way your system is routed are you running a water sep and heater?
I read that you where able to beat my Dodges 60 foot time, to that all I can say is well done. I may have to bring 01 out of race track hibernation once I get my Max running the way I want it to. When I was running my Dodge the rules where still any faster than 12.00 without a roll bar and you where done. So when I got there I kind of lost interest.
Keep up the good work.
Opie
I only mentioned it because I was able to take out mine as well as the injection contol unit while designing my mechanical pump system.
On the way your system is routed are you running a water sep and heater?
I read that you where able to beat my Dodges 60 foot time, to that all I can say is well done. I may have to bring 01 out of race track hibernation once I get my Max running the way I want it to. When I was running my Dodge the rules where still any faster than 12.00 without a roll bar and you where done. So when I got there I kind of lost interest.
Keep up the good work.
Opie
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thanks for the good word,yes we still run the stock oem filter and fuel cooler,did you remove yours,how much did it weigh ?trying to get to 5500 lbs for pro street.if you dont mind email me a contact number and we can bounce some dmax ideas off each other...jess
on a side note the walbro is here,i am waiting for a rainy day to install it....
on a side note the walbro is here,i am waiting for a rainy day to install it....
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From: Holly Ridge, N.C.
OPIE:
OPIE, how the heck are you?? Don't see you on here much buddy! Hope you and your family had a good holiday season and have a great 2006!
Also hope to see you at some events this year.
I wanted to ask you and Jess if you have seen the fuel system ATS is installing on some of the Duramaxes and if so, what is your opinion of it?
I know they use a "modified" CP-3, larger lines, a FASS on the back near the tank with a FASS (stand alone) on the engine near the CP-3. Johnner was wondering how that system is working?
Thanks!
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John_P
OPIE, how the heck are you?? Don't see you on here much buddy! Hope you and your family had a good holiday season and have a great 2006!
Also hope to see you at some events this year.
I wanted to ask you and Jess if you have seen the fuel system ATS is installing on some of the Duramaxes and if so, what is your opinion of it?
I know they use a "modified" CP-3, larger lines, a FASS on the back near the tank with a FASS (stand alone) on the engine near the CP-3. Johnner was wondering how that system is working?
Thanks!
-------
John_P
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Originally Posted by John_P
OPIE:
OPIE, how the heck are you?? Don't see you on here much buddy! Hope you and your family had a good holiday season and have a great 2006!
Also hope to see you at some events this year.
I wanted to ask you and Jess if you have seen the fuel system ATS is installing on some of the Duramaxes and if so, what is your opinion of it?
I know they use a "modified" CP-3, larger lines, a FASS on the back near the tank with a FASS (stand alone) on the engine near the CP-3. Johnner was wondering how that system is working?
Thanks!
-------
John_P
OPIE, how the heck are you?? Don't see you on here much buddy! Hope you and your family had a good holiday season and have a great 2006!
Also hope to see you at some events this year.
I wanted to ask you and Jess if you have seen the fuel system ATS is installing on some of the Duramaxes and if so, what is your opinion of it?
I know they use a "modified" CP-3, larger lines, a FASS on the back near the tank with a FASS (stand alone) on the engine near the CP-3. Johnner was wondering how that system is working?
Thanks!
-------
John_P
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From: FEDERAL WAY, WA
Jess I too am using the stock filter. On the negative pressure side of the pump. I have plans on removing/bypassing it, but for the system I am heading into production with it will be the customers option. I like the permacool filter and the replacement filter is only $13.00 it has a water sep but not a heater so it held me up a couple weeks. Now that I like the fix for the heater it too will be a customer option. The mechanical system pressures are adjustable from 5-100 psi. Walbro sounds like a great pump as does the FASS. I am not going to say anything negative about either one. But I will say that everyone that uses my stuff seems to stay with it. lol Right now I am playing with my newest toy EFILive it is mind blowing and it is becoming a hobby in itself.
Hi John, I see you took over for me at Thunder for highest hp. Job well done to you as well. Same old stuff up here, I have stayed busy doing the R&D thing and hope to bring out some parts that will help others raise the bar by INDY. Though I have been focusing on my Chev there is some things I want to finish up on my ole Cummins so I have it tore down right now.
On the ATS pump mod I have noticed some of the 3rd gens doing it as well and they seem to suffer the same problem that being not enough volume. Makes great dyno numbers but not impressive times at the track. One thing I have noticed about ATS is they are willing to spend the money on their DMAX and I wouldn't doubt they have some key people working on a bigger supply solution for this year. I plan on making INDY this year but I am governed by my regular work never know for sure until last minute.
Talk to you later,
Opie
Hi John, I see you took over for me at Thunder for highest hp. Job well done to you as well. Same old stuff up here, I have stayed busy doing the R&D thing and hope to bring out some parts that will help others raise the bar by INDY. Though I have been focusing on my Chev there is some things I want to finish up on my ole Cummins so I have it tore down right now.
On the ATS pump mod I have noticed some of the 3rd gens doing it as well and they seem to suffer the same problem that being not enough volume. Makes great dyno numbers but not impressive times at the track. One thing I have noticed about ATS is they are willing to spend the money on their DMAX and I wouldn't doubt they have some key people working on a bigger supply solution for this year. I plan on making INDY this year but I am governed by my regular work never know for sure until last minute.
Talk to you later,
Opie
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"If the FASS, or ANY pump that uses a bypass, pumps too much fuel, then all the extra fuel is being heated by the pump. This is both wasted energy, and extra heat.
It also shortens the lifespan of the pump."
True. Excess pumping creates extra heat and wasted energy. More excess pumping = more wasted energy and heat.
This happens whether the bypass is at the injection pump or if a relief valve is used at the lift pump. The bypass makes no difference.
One can estimate the magnitude of this wasted energy as the return flow from the fuel system multiplied by the system pressure.
70 GPH x 20 PSI, for example results in an energy expenditure of about 1/30th of one HP or less than 30 watts. Think of it this way, the fuel pump is providing all that energy and it is being powered by less than 5A at 13V, which is 65 watts, and that includes the electrical losses of the motor.
Return flow heating due to excess pumping isn't really an issue. 30-50 watts of energy imparted to the fuel flow is almost nothing in the overall scheme of things. Way more heat is picked up cooling the CP3 or VP44.
It also shortens the lifespan of the pump."
True. Excess pumping creates extra heat and wasted energy. More excess pumping = more wasted energy and heat.
This happens whether the bypass is at the injection pump or if a relief valve is used at the lift pump. The bypass makes no difference.
One can estimate the magnitude of this wasted energy as the return flow from the fuel system multiplied by the system pressure.
70 GPH x 20 PSI, for example results in an energy expenditure of about 1/30th of one HP or less than 30 watts. Think of it this way, the fuel pump is providing all that energy and it is being powered by less than 5A at 13V, which is 65 watts, and that includes the electrical losses of the motor.
Return flow heating due to excess pumping isn't really an issue. 30-50 watts of energy imparted to the fuel flow is almost nothing in the overall scheme of things. Way more heat is picked up cooling the CP3 or VP44.
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"I think that "Superduty's" idea of running a bypass line between the inlet and return sides of the CP-3 itself is pretty clever. The only problem I have with it is there's not way to monitor whether the pump quits on you (since there'd basically be 0 pressure in the system)."
That isn't quite true. The fuel filter, bypass and return line provide backpressure. Even without a regulator in the bypass line, there is 5 PSI or so of backpressure because of the high flow rate of the Walbro. (85GPHish @ 5PSI.)
Of course one can also add a regulator to the bypass circuit.
"I have a PWM (Pulse-Width Modulation) arrangement on mine that's not being used anymore since I switched to the Holley Blue. In my personal OPINION, the Holley Blue produces *almost* ideal flow to the CP-3 for stock or very mildly modified trucks. It's under 100 GPH, and under 15 psi."
The Holley Blue doesn't deliver anywhere near 100 GPH at 15 PSI. It delivers 100 GPH at 0 PSI. At 15 PSI it is down to 75GPH ish and I don't think it will live long at 15 PSI.
"PWM would be a great way to vary LP supply volume and pressure with RPM or as a function of fuel box setting. Such a circuit wouldn't be hard (or expensive) to arrange if you're decent with electronics."
There is no need to make this any more complicated than it is. Just put a bypass across the CP3 with or without the regulator and let the pump do its thing. None of the modern fuel delivery systems try to control pressure via the pump voltage. All of them ie gasser fuel injection systems, use a pressure regulator. On a gasser, Walbro type pumps are holding pressure at 58 +/- 2 PSI at the fuel injection rail without any problems. A Walbro will hold pressure rock steady at 15 or 20 PSI at the injection pump without any problem.
Just to clarify something here, The Walbro pumps about 80GPH at 15 PSI. The FASS is quoted at 95 GPH, but there is no fuel delivery curve to compare it with. I suspect the 95 GPH is at 0 PSI. The Holley Blue pump is rated at 110 GPH, but it is down to 95GPH at 7 PSI and 88 GPH at 9 PSI. At 15 PSI, it is probably down to 75 GPH. The Holley only pumps 110 GPH at 0 PSI.
At 15 PSI, I suspect the Walbro puts out as much, if not more than any of these pumps. So it isn't a case of a bigger pump versus a smaller pump. It is the case of pumps that are rated at the same flow (at 15 PSI), but the Walbro will go to 20 or 30 PSI without any problems, whereas the other pumps will not.
That isn't quite true. The fuel filter, bypass and return line provide backpressure. Even without a regulator in the bypass line, there is 5 PSI or so of backpressure because of the high flow rate of the Walbro. (85GPHish @ 5PSI.)
Of course one can also add a regulator to the bypass circuit.
"I have a PWM (Pulse-Width Modulation) arrangement on mine that's not being used anymore since I switched to the Holley Blue. In my personal OPINION, the Holley Blue produces *almost* ideal flow to the CP-3 for stock or very mildly modified trucks. It's under 100 GPH, and under 15 psi."
The Holley Blue doesn't deliver anywhere near 100 GPH at 15 PSI. It delivers 100 GPH at 0 PSI. At 15 PSI it is down to 75GPH ish and I don't think it will live long at 15 PSI.
"PWM would be a great way to vary LP supply volume and pressure with RPM or as a function of fuel box setting. Such a circuit wouldn't be hard (or expensive) to arrange if you're decent with electronics."
There is no need to make this any more complicated than it is. Just put a bypass across the CP3 with or without the regulator and let the pump do its thing. None of the modern fuel delivery systems try to control pressure via the pump voltage. All of them ie gasser fuel injection systems, use a pressure regulator. On a gasser, Walbro type pumps are holding pressure at 58 +/- 2 PSI at the fuel injection rail without any problems. A Walbro will hold pressure rock steady at 15 or 20 PSI at the injection pump without any problem.
Just to clarify something here, The Walbro pumps about 80GPH at 15 PSI. The FASS is quoted at 95 GPH, but there is no fuel delivery curve to compare it with. I suspect the 95 GPH is at 0 PSI. The Holley Blue pump is rated at 110 GPH, but it is down to 95GPH at 7 PSI and 88 GPH at 9 PSI. At 15 PSI, it is probably down to 75 GPH. The Holley only pumps 110 GPH at 0 PSI.
At 15 PSI, I suspect the Walbro puts out as much, if not more than any of these pumps. So it isn't a case of a bigger pump versus a smaller pump. It is the case of pumps that are rated at the same flow (at 15 PSI), but the Walbro will go to 20 or 30 PSI without any problems, whereas the other pumps will not.
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Nope. I was in a hurry to get the truck running this summer.
I had a temporary gauge plumbed in pre filter. It showed 5-6 PSI with the engine idling.
It isn't possible to run the Walbro without a bypass because it will blow the filter housing lid.
I had a temporary gauge plumbed in pre filter. It showed 5-6 PSI with the engine idling.
It isn't possible to run the Walbro without a bypass because it will blow the filter housing lid.
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It actually just makes a crack in the lid and then blows a stream of fuel straight up.
I didn't mean to mislead anyone when I said it blows it. it doesn't blow the lid off the filter housing at all.
It got the side of my engine, the valve cover and the firewall wet with fuel. A few minutes in a car wash had it cleaned up.
I didn't mean to mislead anyone when I said it blows it. it doesn't blow the lid off the filter housing at all.
It got the side of my engine, the valve cover and the firewall wet with fuel. A few minutes in a car wash had it cleaned up.
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I see. I know if you start your truck with the little plug in the top of the oil filter housing removed it makes a HUGE mess with 60psi of oil press. The guy that was suppost to reinstall it aparently has ADD and was distracted by a bird or somthing. 