If ya really want to get down to brass tacks, all IC engines are a pile of junk and inefficient machines. Even the best IC Diesel engines are under 42%. Yuk!

We are in a part of transitional history from junk ( IC ) to more efficient designs. We will look back one day and wonder what took us so long.

Neither the DMAX or Madsens engine is totally stock internally. At what point is an engine considered "stock internals"? Would main studs count as stock internals? How about a block machined for larger head studs from 12mm to 14mm? How about a main girdle/bedplate combination? Still stock??

They both have stock cranks. And they both have stock PEM pistons. About the only thing they have different between them is connecting rods. One has Crower billets, one uses the Cummins OEM rods, but has aftermarket rod bolts. Not a huge difference between the two, IMO.

The efficiencies of the two engines fuel delivery and air delivery systems is where the stark contrast begins. One uses over 300% more fuel to make close to the same power levels. One uses an injector more than 200% the size in flow rate. One uses turbo airflow rates much larger than the other.

It all comes down to efficiency and the use of the same available resources of fuel and air.

 

What's a PEM piston

J/K Don...nice explanation.
Chris

BTW, how dare you tell Tim I'm a redneck. That's not even right

 

Don:

Good points buddy!

I know that on this site and many of the other diesel websites there has been alot of "banter" lately about the "old relic" ( )Dodge CTD 12 valve
Cummins Engines versus the newer technology of say the Duramax or the CR Cummins Engine. While I would agree that the technology with the CR Engines is the future, I still LOVE my "old relic" Cummins 12 valve! I am an old guy who likes "old school" stuff and although I have my 2006 Dodge CTD CR now,......all the "electronic control" is still hard for me to get used to if you know what I mean. To put it another way, I like the "simplicity and reliability" of that old Cummins 12 valve engine. It smokes like a freight train under WOT, it is loud and obnoxious,.....BUT I still like it! I am also a "bottom feeder" with my truck compared to what some of these guys are running on the dynos and on the drag strip now.

Don, a bunch of us were talking the other day wondering "out loud" on how long it will take the Pro Truck and Tractor Sled Pullers to go from the very popular Cummins 12 valve engine to the new technology of the CR Duramax or Cummins Engines?? I may be wrong, but I think most if not all of the engines in the "big boys" trucks (Scheid, Martin, Stacey, Watson, VanHaisley's,) to name a few are all still using the Cummins 12 valve engines or that technology. Also, this year may be different, but as of the end of last year most if not all of the top E.T. Pro-Street DHRA/HHDRA Trucks were still using the Cummins 12 valve engines too. It will be fun to watch, no doubt about that! Then there is the issue of the good old federal governmnet watching all of this with the environmental issues we have nowadays. Heck, a guy told me the other day that the two-stroke engine is pretty well gone now!

Don, do you still have your old Dodge CTD 12 valve or have you sold it??

Thanks.

-------
John_P

 

Sorry guys i cant share my opinion in here, i recieved a warning....

 

I have seen it on the street but not at the track...I made the first event as a spectator and was going to race in the second, but had to leave town (think it was rained out as well). Dmax or not....I wont pull up beside him at the lights

Great numbers Guys! Stories like these are great for the Diesel scene in general, dont care what brand it was....I do however assume 'the race is on'. Will someone send a memo to the Ford boys!

 

Be real careful what you wish for.

Ford has the new Piezioelectric fired injectors. How does 10 injection events per stroke sound? With no moving parts like solenoids, the new Ford's injectors have the potential to be a genuine player now. The PE injected diesels are another generation ahead of what the SE injectors are. Both in terms of control and timing.

If the motor can take it, we are in trouble, make no mistake about that.

 

Don, is anyone applying Keronite (PEO) to the ring lands or piston crowns yet?

It's OK for you to speak your mind - I think the mods just want you to be civil about it....

I wonder if the piezo actuators are susceptible to interference from engine harmonics?

 

No. Renault has been running around with them for over 2 years, Bayernische Motor Verken for about the same time, Audi is going to start this year with them and rumour has it that Porsche is also looking at a Diesel Performance car as well.

All in all, I believe the 'secret' of diesel power is finally out. With the advent of full authority electronic injection control, more and more 'green handle' performance cars will soon be utilizing diesel as a means to get more power!

GDI or gasoline direct injection is also making strides in performance and fuel efficiency, but there are limitations right now in piston design which is keeping their displacement limit in the 3.5L area. GDI is based on a HPCRD fuel system, and if you trace back the lineage, you will find that GDI was the precursor to HPCRD.

Diesel is the ideal fuel for direct injection with it's higher flashpoint, but don't count GDI out yet.

There is far too much potential left on the table, which we will see in the next 5 years.

 

I too am hearing of some great strides from the Ford camp, but my post was in jest of course, but pointing at the great number of loyalists that they have lost over the past few years due to numerous issues. Even if they launch some great technology with super potential, will it be enough to bring those that left the Ford stable back??? Only time will tell. As far as I am concerned, the HP wars are for the 'select few' that think it is important, I for one would rather have these trucks rated on reliability...for me I will remain loyal to Cummins for this reason alone. The HP wars are Cool though, no matter what, just not important to me!

 

Agreed. But the biggest potential for PE's will be in emissions, fuel economy and yes, POWER!

I for one hope that FORD can make this sucker work. Now that they learned their lesson and have a true Common Rail system licensed from BOSCH they are on the right track. I hope every one of their beancounters get's fired over using SIEMENS injectors on the 6.0 instead of BOSCH, and because they were unwilling to pay licensing to BOSCH to get a real HPCR system for the 6.0

Which was and is the root cause of a lot of their problems (if we discount block porosity and headgasket issues)

The reality is that the 6.0 was a mistake and doomed from the start because of those reasons. I believe FORD let all of us down because of that. They cut corners on the heart of the fuel system by listening to accountants over their engineering corps, and in the process lost money on every truck they sold in warranty costs per unit.

I can only hope that they can every one of those people involved in that SNAFU.

Rant off.

The 6.4 is what the 6.0 should have been in the first place. It was a smart move by FORD to increase displacement to distance itslef from the 6.0 moniker. Time will be the test to see if they got their stuff together to be an actual contender or not. On paper, they have all the right parts. If they can keep the accountants at bay and just make this work, we can welcome Ford back as an actual player in the market. They build a solid truck, now we have to hope their powerplant lives up to the rest of the package.

Just some observations and musings, but with 18 months to make patterns for a new block casting, I do see that the bore centers are the same on the 6.0 to 6.4L so it looks to be the same block. Not really an issue IF they don't have porosity issues, and IF they add more headbolts.

 

I might have missed the dyno event but where is the dyno sheet/graph from the event? Looking at the vid, I'm supprised how quiet the truck jumps on the dyno during the pull. My truck is just a whimp truck and mine smoked the hides on the rollers and you could see the side walls flexing from 10ft away. My truck looked like it was going to jump off the dyno, this was a pretty soft pull. Either the dyno had no load on it or that dyno pass the truck broke and didn't make a hard pull. A 1000hp truck would almost jumped off the dyno. What kinda of straps they use? Its been two years since my truck was dyno, maybe that doesn't happen with the new dyno. Sorry guys, just saying what I'm thinking. Great numbers, good work. Hopefully it make it out to some of the local dyno events. It would be fun to see someone else besides just a dodge doing the burnouts.

 

Those are awesome #'s, congrats!

 

He has replied on other forums that he will not post the graph.I was at this dyno event, there were some "intersting" numbers being layed down that I saw.

 

why does he not want to post the graph? if i had just made those numbers i wouldnt waste anytime posting them

 

very nicely said Don.