Very unhappy with Dodge
08-17-2005, 06:23 PM
#46
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Lightman speaks the truth ....
If these trucks aren't designed for stop and go driving, then they aren't designed for driving in the modern world.
08-17-2005, 06:39 PM
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I think there could be something to the injector cleaner/drive hard theory. I know this is not the result of double blind study, but I had the dreaded injector knock that sounded like a rod about to come through block. One bottle of the Redline additive to ½ tank and the knock was eliminated before ¼ tank. My truck is now as quiet as the day I left the dealer.
08-17-2005, 07:00 PM
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I have a 2003 model. I drive it as a everyday driver 15000 miles a year. I pull about 8000 lbs maybe on three trips in a year for maybe 1000 miles combined of all three trips. I have not had any issues with mine other than the air conditioning on the truck. Sounds like bs they are trying to pull. How do they even know how you are driving the truck. Drive it for a month go back and tell them you have pulled 10k with it for the past month and it has the same issues. How are they going to know???
08-17-2005, 07:34 PM
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YOU GUYS HAVE NO IDEA!!!!!!!....................................... . Its not the dealers diag or the tech working on the truck!!!!!Getting injectors for these things is in control of DC direct aka STARCENTER. these guys live by duty cycle and injector return flow tests! They determine the fate of the customers truck repairs! I cant even coount how many times ive argued with these people over trying to get injectors for my customers. The last truck i had was misfireing i gave them the duty cycle specs and injector return flow tests and the best they could tell me was pulll all the injectors and clean the tips with a wire brush then put injector cleaner in the tank and ship it!!! Im like ...............Are you serious? Anyone whos pulled injectors on these motors know they just dont pop right out! So i told them i want 6 injectors because if im going through the trouble of pulling them im replacing them! they tell me no and i hang up walk in the service managers office and tell him find away to get me six injectors or this truck doesnt roll! Low and behold an hour or so later and many calls to the higher ups i have injectors coming with warning that its going to drive the dealership numbers through the roof! This is just a sample of some of the crap me and other techs have to go thruogh on a day to day basis! You want a view from the inside and want to know the crap that goes on and why you guys cant get problems resolved i have a hundred more stories where that came !
08-17-2005, 08:17 PM
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Also too when they talk about duty cycle the look at total idle time vs total hrs more then anything. They will start to deny injectors when the see for exsample 3000 hrs total time and 1500 of them are at idle becuase they claim that comomn rail is not designed to idle because cyl temp is too low.
08-17-2005, 09:11 PM
#52
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Someone told me that any driving under a certain RPM (like under 1200) is logged as idle time. With my truck when going down the highway, at or around 50-55 mph im near that magic 1200-1400 RPM number. If that be the case than even when driving at low RPM it is logged as idle time? Do I understand this correctly?
If this is the case then DC should alter the logging function to only log stopped idle time and should also include some type of warning and instructions in the Owners manual, otherwise I don't believe that they can enhforce anything like they are trying to do and maybe if many "Unhappy Owners" were to petition DC to buyback their "Defective" trucks it might get the message across. The above comment about asking for disoposition in writing and inform the service writer that you are considering a buyback might help get the message across.
JMHO......Don
If this is the case then DC should alter the logging function to only log stopped idle time and should also include some type of warning and instructions in the Owners manual, otherwise I don't believe that they can enhforce anything like they are trying to do and maybe if many "Unhappy Owners" were to petition DC to buyback their "Defective" trucks it might get the message across. The above comment about asking for disoposition in writing and inform the service writer that you are considering a buyback might help get the message across.
JMHO......Don
08-17-2005, 09:33 PM
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The bigger concern with theses things is the injectors leaking! I have done three motor replacements all 600's due to injector faliure.Other then that I havent replaced a cummins motor since the dreaded block spliting blocks of the 98/99 era.
08-17-2005, 11:01 PM
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dodgetech77 "good read " keep it coming !!
so as a tech for dodge .. are you saying that the likes of an ez or say a quad box are undetecable .. i know this is beating a dead horse but you have stirred up the pot here and i am all ears !!!
so as a tech for dodge .. are you saying that the likes of an ez or say a quad box are undetecable .. i know this is beating a dead horse but you have stirred up the pot here and i am all ears !!!
08-17-2005, 11:07 PM
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Rough running and white smoke are common to cold diesels, especially if they have their fuel turned fairly hot. The truck should run fine without abuse, whether or not you tow with it. It is posibble your injectors are overfueling the engine, it is also possible that the cold start aids arent working, or your thermostat is stuck open. It really doesn't matter what it is, make DC fix it.
08-17-2005, 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by swansong04
dodgetech77 "good read " keep it coming !!
so as a tech for dodge .. are you saying that the likes of an ez or say a quad box are undetecable .. i know this is beating a dead horse but you have stirred up the pot here and i am all ears !!!
dodgetech77 "good read " keep it coming !!
so as a tech for dodge .. are you saying that the likes of an ez or say a quad box are undetecable .. i know this is beating a dead horse but you have stirred up the pot here and i am all ears !!!
08-18-2005, 12:37 AM
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errr... I'm going to jump in here.
First of all, diesels need to run with a load or they carbon up. It doesn't matter what diesel it is, they all do it. Idle conditions and light loads just don't get the combustion chambers hot enough to promote good clean combustion.
Having said this, these new common rail injection systems are much more prone to problems than are the older pump line injector systems. I say this because the injection events are much more finicky and the metering is by pressure time rather than positive displacement in a conventional pump system.
The early Cat 3126 and the early Powerstrokes were very prone to this problem. I've seen PSDs that bent pushrods because the valves got gummed up from too much idle/low load operation.
It doesn't help that the 3rd Gen HPCR Cummins engines are very free flowing engines. Low backpressure on both intake and exahaust means lots of air flow even at idle, which means low combustion chamber temps. Putting a free flowing exhaust on, removing the cat and putting a free flowing air cleaner on will make the problem WORSE.
The new injection schemes, ie separate pilot and main injection events make it even worse because the volume of fuel injected at any one time is smaller and thus doesn't flush the injector nozzles as well as one big injection event might.
The industry has developed 2 means to deal with this issue.
Some engines, including the ISBe, are designed to idle on less than all cylinders when they are cold. (ie 3 of 6) The Cat 3126 also does this. I think some of the larger Cummins engines do this as well. By idling on fewer cylinders, those cylinders run hotter and thus they don't carbon up. With no fuel being injected into the non running cylinders, they don't carbon up at all. It works pretty well.
Another way of dealing with this is to use an exhaust backpressure valve. The PSD uses one, but the first ones didn't and they were notorious for injector problems in cold climates.
Now... if I had to guess, I'd say the problem truck of this post probably has injectors that no longer function correctly. The tips probably dribble on them. This was maybe caused by cold operation at some point, but could have been a manufacturing problem too. Once an injector is bad and dribbling, it is very rare that it will clear up, even with injector cleaner and extended high output use. Generally when a nozzle dribbles it burns the needle which physically removes/distorts material and there is no way for it to clean up again. Thus our problem truck needs some injectors. No way around that.
One more thing. It isn't about working the truck hard enough, it is about NOT allowing the truck to operate when cold. It is the cold operation that fouls the injectors. Contrary to seemingly popular belief, subsequent hot operation will not unfoul injectors.
So... how do we as truck owners prevent this from happening in the first place ?
I highly recommend installing an exhaust brake and using it whenever the truck is going to be idling for any duration. Nothing is harder on a diesel than cold idle. The oil is cold, the combustion chambers are cold, the fuel injection volume is small. It just isn't a good thing.
If you are driving your diesel in winter, do NOT start it and let it idle much before driving it. Start it, let the oil temp stabilize for 10 or 20 seconds, put it in gear and put it under a light load. Do this even in -20 weather. It ain't going to warm up idling, no matter how high you set the RPM and all the while it is warming up it is gumming up. Warming it up with a gentle load will help it way more than hurt it. I hate sitting on cold leather seats, but there just isn't any way to get a diesel hot other than by putting it under a load.
Let me explain something. The combustion chambers on a 5.9 are a litre in size. The amount of fuel required to idle a 5.9 is about 8 mm^3 per injection. 8 mm^3 is about the size of the end of a pencil lead. So how hot do you think that 8mm^3 of fuel is going to get all that air in the combustion chamber when it burns ? Not very. Those of you that have EGT gauges can tell us by watching the temps of a cold idling engine in winter. Many times it will take a while to get over 200F ! At that temp moisture is condensing everywhere and combustion is slow and incomplete. Yuck. It is probably the worst thing you can do to the engine.
Those of you using your trucks on short trips can also use the exhaust brake. Every time you come to a stop you can put it on and you can also use it for braking to keep the engine warm when it has no fuel at all going in. Remember that unless throttled a diesel engine pumps air all the time. Just watch your EGT gauge on a long downhill while engine braking. If your trips are really short, you can put your exhaust brake on while travelling. ANYTHING to get that engine hot and working. Expect your mileage to fall while doing this. A PSD will automatically cycle the exhaust valve on and off for 10 minutes on a cold morning trying to get the engine warm.
The other thing to do would be to get Cummins to make these engines idle on 3 cylinders until they warm up. They do it for the ISBes and there isn't any reason why they couldn't do it on ours. It won't be as smooth as a 6 cylinder idle but at least the engine will warm up. At a high idle RPM it probably wouldn't be that noticeable.
Here is another thought. Some of us have been discussing modifying the injection timing in another thread. It has been mentioned that there is some slop in the tone wheel and some engines could be mis timed late by as much as 0.5 degrees. For those that aren't familiar with diesels, combustion chamber temps and pressures increase with earlier timing. It has been suggested that the 600s and 610s in particular have pretty late timing. It might be in the interest of the owners of these engines to advance the timing a few degrees to promote a hotter more efficient idle low load burn.
On large trucks the operators also cover up the intercoolers in cold weather and draw hot air from inside the engine compartment rather than from the outside. You have to make sure that the fan can still get air or you'll be losing 10-20 HP trying to suck air through your blocked intercooler.
A hotter thermostat will help as well.
The bottom line is that no diesel will run clean with cold combustion chambers and that situation must be avoided at all times. Expect injector issues with cold combustion chamber operation.
The issue with the topic truck here isn't that it is being driven to lightly now, it is that it either had a bad injector to begin with or it was operated cold and that fouled one or more injectors. The only solution to this problem is to get some new injectors into the engine (before it washes down some cylinders !) and then make sure the engine is never operated with cold combustion chambers.
BTW: the problem with the PSD with the bent pushrods was solved by removing the 4" straight pipe exhaust stack, putting a restrictive muffer on it, drawing the air from inside the engine compartment, running the engine at 1500 RPM and putting an extra load on the PTO equipment whenever possible. Wala, no more bent pushrods.
My engine got idled for about an hour the other day while I worked on truck electrical/trailer brake issues. When I drove it around the block later it blew black smoke when I first accelerated. It was about 60F outside while it was idling. I'll be installing an exhaust brake in the near future. These engines just flow way too much air and turn over way too easily to idle for long periods of time with no load.
Another tip to warm up a diesel quickly is to operate it at low RPMs when under load. This increases the fuel injected into the combustion chamber each firing and minimizes the amount of <cold> air being consumed by the engine. The only reason diesels are high idled when cold is so that there is more friction to provide a load. If the engine has a load, run it at low RPMs, almost lugging it to get it warm. If you run the engine fast it is going to intake lots of air and each injection event will be small. If you run the engine slow it will take in less air and each injection event will be big and HOT. That is when the injectors will work cleanly.
So... my cold weather morning routine is to plug the engine in for a few hours first, clean the snow off the truck, get everything in the truck, start it, let it stabilize for 10 to 15 seconds, put it in gear and start rolling with small throttle and slow acceleration. I short shift it and drive it light for a minute or so. I continue to short shift but drive it a bit heavier until the temp gauge starts moving. Then I drive it a bit heavier again. Once the temp gauge is fully up, I drive it normally. I never idle a small diesel in winter. Larger diesels might fare better but if you must idle it, use an exhaust brake to give it a load and keep it warm.
I hope this helps.
First of all, diesels need to run with a load or they carbon up. It doesn't matter what diesel it is, they all do it. Idle conditions and light loads just don't get the combustion chambers hot enough to promote good clean combustion.
Having said this, these new common rail injection systems are much more prone to problems than are the older pump line injector systems. I say this because the injection events are much more finicky and the metering is by pressure time rather than positive displacement in a conventional pump system.
The early Cat 3126 and the early Powerstrokes were very prone to this problem. I've seen PSDs that bent pushrods because the valves got gummed up from too much idle/low load operation.
It doesn't help that the 3rd Gen HPCR Cummins engines are very free flowing engines. Low backpressure on both intake and exahaust means lots of air flow even at idle, which means low combustion chamber temps. Putting a free flowing exhaust on, removing the cat and putting a free flowing air cleaner on will make the problem WORSE.
The new injection schemes, ie separate pilot and main injection events make it even worse because the volume of fuel injected at any one time is smaller and thus doesn't flush the injector nozzles as well as one big injection event might.
The industry has developed 2 means to deal with this issue.
Some engines, including the ISBe, are designed to idle on less than all cylinders when they are cold. (ie 3 of 6) The Cat 3126 also does this. I think some of the larger Cummins engines do this as well. By idling on fewer cylinders, those cylinders run hotter and thus they don't carbon up. With no fuel being injected into the non running cylinders, they don't carbon up at all. It works pretty well.
Another way of dealing with this is to use an exhaust backpressure valve. The PSD uses one, but the first ones didn't and they were notorious for injector problems in cold climates.
Now... if I had to guess, I'd say the problem truck of this post probably has injectors that no longer function correctly. The tips probably dribble on them. This was maybe caused by cold operation at some point, but could have been a manufacturing problem too. Once an injector is bad and dribbling, it is very rare that it will clear up, even with injector cleaner and extended high output use. Generally when a nozzle dribbles it burns the needle which physically removes/distorts material and there is no way for it to clean up again. Thus our problem truck needs some injectors. No way around that.
One more thing. It isn't about working the truck hard enough, it is about NOT allowing the truck to operate when cold. It is the cold operation that fouls the injectors. Contrary to seemingly popular belief, subsequent hot operation will not unfoul injectors.
So... how do we as truck owners prevent this from happening in the first place ?
I highly recommend installing an exhaust brake and using it whenever the truck is going to be idling for any duration. Nothing is harder on a diesel than cold idle. The oil is cold, the combustion chambers are cold, the fuel injection volume is small. It just isn't a good thing.
If you are driving your diesel in winter, do NOT start it and let it idle much before driving it. Start it, let the oil temp stabilize for 10 or 20 seconds, put it in gear and put it under a light load. Do this even in -20 weather. It ain't going to warm up idling, no matter how high you set the RPM and all the while it is warming up it is gumming up. Warming it up with a gentle load will help it way more than hurt it. I hate sitting on cold leather seats, but there just isn't any way to get a diesel hot other than by putting it under a load.
Let me explain something. The combustion chambers on a 5.9 are a litre in size. The amount of fuel required to idle a 5.9 is about 8 mm^3 per injection. 8 mm^3 is about the size of the end of a pencil lead. So how hot do you think that 8mm^3 of fuel is going to get all that air in the combustion chamber when it burns ? Not very. Those of you that have EGT gauges can tell us by watching the temps of a cold idling engine in winter. Many times it will take a while to get over 200F ! At that temp moisture is condensing everywhere and combustion is slow and incomplete. Yuck. It is probably the worst thing you can do to the engine.
Those of you using your trucks on short trips can also use the exhaust brake. Every time you come to a stop you can put it on and you can also use it for braking to keep the engine warm when it has no fuel at all going in. Remember that unless throttled a diesel engine pumps air all the time. Just watch your EGT gauge on a long downhill while engine braking. If your trips are really short, you can put your exhaust brake on while travelling. ANYTHING to get that engine hot and working. Expect your mileage to fall while doing this. A PSD will automatically cycle the exhaust valve on and off for 10 minutes on a cold morning trying to get the engine warm.
The other thing to do would be to get Cummins to make these engines idle on 3 cylinders until they warm up. They do it for the ISBes and there isn't any reason why they couldn't do it on ours. It won't be as smooth as a 6 cylinder idle but at least the engine will warm up. At a high idle RPM it probably wouldn't be that noticeable.
Here is another thought. Some of us have been discussing modifying the injection timing in another thread. It has been mentioned that there is some slop in the tone wheel and some engines could be mis timed late by as much as 0.5 degrees. For those that aren't familiar with diesels, combustion chamber temps and pressures increase with earlier timing. It has been suggested that the 600s and 610s in particular have pretty late timing. It might be in the interest of the owners of these engines to advance the timing a few degrees to promote a hotter more efficient idle low load burn.
On large trucks the operators also cover up the intercoolers in cold weather and draw hot air from inside the engine compartment rather than from the outside. You have to make sure that the fan can still get air or you'll be losing 10-20 HP trying to suck air through your blocked intercooler.
A hotter thermostat will help as well.
The bottom line is that no diesel will run clean with cold combustion chambers and that situation must be avoided at all times. Expect injector issues with cold combustion chamber operation.
The issue with the topic truck here isn't that it is being driven to lightly now, it is that it either had a bad injector to begin with or it was operated cold and that fouled one or more injectors. The only solution to this problem is to get some new injectors into the engine (before it washes down some cylinders !) and then make sure the engine is never operated with cold combustion chambers.
BTW: the problem with the PSD with the bent pushrods was solved by removing the 4" straight pipe exhaust stack, putting a restrictive muffer on it, drawing the air from inside the engine compartment, running the engine at 1500 RPM and putting an extra load on the PTO equipment whenever possible. Wala, no more bent pushrods.
My engine got idled for about an hour the other day while I worked on truck electrical/trailer brake issues. When I drove it around the block later it blew black smoke when I first accelerated. It was about 60F outside while it was idling. I'll be installing an exhaust brake in the near future. These engines just flow way too much air and turn over way too easily to idle for long periods of time with no load.
Another tip to warm up a diesel quickly is to operate it at low RPMs when under load. This increases the fuel injected into the combustion chamber each firing and minimizes the amount of <cold> air being consumed by the engine. The only reason diesels are high idled when cold is so that there is more friction to provide a load. If the engine has a load, run it at low RPMs, almost lugging it to get it warm. If you run the engine fast it is going to intake lots of air and each injection event will be small. If you run the engine slow it will take in less air and each injection event will be big and HOT. That is when the injectors will work cleanly.
So... my cold weather morning routine is to plug the engine in for a few hours first, clean the snow off the truck, get everything in the truck, start it, let it stabilize for 10 to 15 seconds, put it in gear and start rolling with small throttle and slow acceleration. I short shift it and drive it light for a minute or so. I continue to short shift but drive it a bit heavier until the temp gauge starts moving. Then I drive it a bit heavier again. Once the temp gauge is fully up, I drive it normally. I never idle a small diesel in winter. Larger diesels might fare better but if you must idle it, use an exhaust brake to give it a load and keep it warm.
I hope this helps.
08-18-2005, 08:06 AM
#58
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Originally posted by dodgetech77
Id say your safe with one of those boxes even though ill probably should be banned for such bad advice according to certian people .anything that you can plug in and unplug is gonna be your best bet. basiclly the better you can return your truck to stock and not show any trace of mods the better off your are! and if you do go in for warranty work play dumb and dont try to tell the dealer what you think is wrong or what you read on a web site.
Id say your safe with one of those boxes even though ill probably should be banned for such bad advice according to certian people .anything that you can plug in and unplug is gonna be your best bet. basiclly the better you can return your truck to stock and not show any trace of mods the better off your are! and if you do go in for warranty work play dumb and dont try to tell the dealer what you think is wrong or what you read on a web site.
If a customer has vehicle problems and they start to turn into major problems DC will keep asking for information from all related components until they find what caused it and as soon as they see some data out of proportion or tampered with connectors up go the red flag and your warranty is voided.
Mr. dodgetech77 you even stated yourself that it is DC that does the voiding, your just the middle man. You would probably not turn in anyone but if the truck is taken to another dealer it could be. If DC asks for the parts and checks them how are you going to keep DC from voiding the customers warranty? You cannot, so your information about adding modifications is wrong. I have heard of people having their warranty voided for simple modifications such as air filter and exhaust. Are you going to say people on the board or the other boards are lying? I would trust most of these guys on these boards before I trusted a DC rep. After all I am one of those guys that had my warranty voided. Talk about numerous trips to dealers and phone calls to DC, even arbitration but once the tech and dealer got me to add a modification I didn't have a leg to stand on. Even a lawyer cannot help someone unless you have Bill Gates money. This is what the dealership told me in the end; "Do you think we are going to risk a multi million dollar dealership on a warranty claim?????".
Thank you for your advise on technical matters but the one about modifications is dead wrong.
08-18-2005, 09:22 AM
#59
I don't know what your doing wrong Mr 77, but I've never had a problem getting injectors for a CRD from DC.....and yes, the trucks that get babied are more prone to carbon build up on the tips of the injectors. I've never replaced an injector in a truck that is worked hard.
08-18-2005, 11:01 AM
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First of all bluebull i can see we agree to disagree! Im not saying that mods wont void the warranty im just telling these guys from a techs point of view what im am told to look for and what to do before bringing thier trucks in for repairs as far as removing modules and other possible warranty voiding bolt ons.I myself have never been asked about exhaust or air filters by DC as far as voiding warranty.Yes every dealership and tech is different but atleast i can give you all a fighting chance as to what they are going to look for! Sorry guys im just trying give a little help because im like you guys STOCK SUCKS!!!
Second i dont know your story behind your truck and its warranty being voided but you did say that your truck was modded and looking at your decription at the bottom of your post looks heavily modded! Im not really sure how you would expect them to warranty your truck like that ? The only parts that are performance parts that are covered underr warranty are mopar perfromance parts and last i checked they didnt offer modules or injectors! also i know for a fact the mods you had done to your truck like ,and heres your quote!..........."Dodge cummins that had stage 1 injectors, edge comp, 4" exhaust, modified auto, BHAF, and a host of other goodies. took off what I could before trading"....................So quit blaming DC for you causing damaging your truck!!!!! You modded it you got caught and you paid TOO BAD!!! Your SOBB story isnt holding water with me!!!!
Second i dont know your story behind your truck and its warranty being voided but you did say that your truck was modded and looking at your decription at the bottom of your post looks heavily modded! Im not really sure how you would expect them to warranty your truck like that ? The only parts that are performance parts that are covered underr warranty are mopar perfromance parts and last i checked they didnt offer modules or injectors! also i know for a fact the mods you had done to your truck like ,and heres your quote!..........."Dodge cummins that had stage 1 injectors, edge comp, 4" exhaust, modified auto, BHAF, and a host of other goodies. took off what I could before trading"....................So quit blaming DC for you causing damaging your truck!!!!! You modded it you got caught and you paid TOO BAD!!! Your SOBB story isnt holding water with me!!!!