stillsmokin

I have been away from the computer all summer competing and doing research and development of a new 12V fuel system. So this VE information is what I have to contribute to the community for my summer of silence. I hope this leads to some serious dyno numbers, sled pulls, and ETs next year for the first gen community.

I was curious, I am sure other members are too, about some of the less known pump mods out there for the VE. I could really care less for the smoke and mirrors treatment most pump shops treat guys with, some of us can't blindly write a check to a pump shop and not know whats been changed inside. Sure you can EDM the heck out of stuff, but for the average guy there are stock compnents already made by bosch that will surpass our current ones in performance. Like the legend of the non intercooled delivery valves being larger. Which some research in one of my manuals leads me to believe might be the case. If you have a junk non I/C pump we should talk, so I can answer the question. The VW pump I took apart has nearly identical delivery valves to the 205 pump on the bench. My current pump is modified heavily, but I need more. Sled pulling is tough but I'm outpulling all kinds of smokers on the VE so I'm sticking to it. I have near instant response with the little rotary.

I wanted to have a better understanding of the pump and it many variations so, I bought a spare 205 pump the other day and 3 other VE'S from various other applications. It's like my own crazy german junkyard. To build one flat out evil VE.

I have made a few custom tools to bypass the bosch anti-tamper fasteners. Last week I tore down 2 VE's. One is from a VW 1.5 or 1.6 N/A motor of late 1970's vintage, the other is from a 4bt with a bosch number that isn't in my VE book. I have noticed a few strange things already. The old VW pump will bolt on the cover of a 6bt, but the housing needs bored for the larger cummins input shaft bushing and it doesn't have a timing lock mechanism. The VW pump has larger cast in transfer pump fill passages than those on the 4bt pump! HMMM...

Other deductions:

There is an RPM limit to the VE it is somewhere around 5300 rpm according to bosch, there are no sidenotes about 4-6 cylinder. I'm working on finding the acceleration speed limit for the 12mm plunger aside from the fluid dynamics part of the equation.

The inlet passage of the VE is greater than 1/4" inside the pump where it steps down to its smallest size and the fuel line fitting is a major restriction. A visit the the milling machine may reveal a larger passage. For now, I manufactured an inlet fitting in my lathe that is AN-10 or 1/2" pushlock! If the transfer pump is starved then this should fix that problem. It might be possible to dual feed the VE's internal pump if the pressure relief valve were relocated and the transfer pump was creatively reworked.

The pressure relief valve can be recalibrated for higher case pressure. Caution! Debris! housing failure may result from excessive case pressure.

The pressure outlet port of the transfer pump might be restricted by the roller ring under certain timing conditions. This may cause reduced fuel flow at times. There are a few other flow problems in the VE as well. A major one in the high pressure head.

A new fuel screw could be machined for more excessive fuel rates, the current screw bottoms on a shoulder behind the o-ring. I might make one here in the next few weeks.

Bosch made pump cam plates with different lift specs. Research led me to a common mod done by the VW crowd 1.9 cam plate in 1.6 pump. It's cheap science, increasing the lift increases plunger travel and that in turn increases the volume of fuel delivered per stroke (cc's). I'm still searching for a 6 cylinder camplate with higher lift for the cummins, a large displacement 6 cylinder application (7.5 liter or so) may be the ticket. It has to work with the slots in the plunger and not hit the timing plug though. This may take the 12mm head to new numbers.

There is potentially unknown technology in other bosch pumps as well. The predecessors to the newer VP44 were VE variants without mechanical control. VE-E, VP29, VP30, VP36, VP37 pumps may have some undiscovered components that will work in our pumps, I'm still looking for a core from a BMW.

There is also a VE pump that is literally a mirror image of itself, with the fuel and shut down levers on the right side of the pump. If you switched some internal components and placed it next to our VE, two pumps could be run with one simple linkage.....Imagine.

I found a great thread on a VW site that details a VE overhual with tons of great pictures vwdieselparts.com



There is a fine line between genius and insanity..... I have erased this line

Clunk

Looks like a well worked out R&D project, hope your work bears good.

Rampage1967

Enquiring minds want to know ;-)

wannadiesel

I have a non-intercooled pump core. Let me know what to measure.

stillsmokin

Well, here we go, Pull one of the DV's off of the pump, note if there are any little hash marks on the corners of the wrench flats on the body or a three digit number stamped or printed on it. Next, look at the retraction piston. This is the little part the spring seats on in the base of the valve, it has 4 slots cut in the sides. On the spring side there are 2 sets of numbers we'll start by comparing those and maybe the ID of the hole of the retraction piston holder. The pump number 0 460 426 XXX would be handy too.

75Dodge

I have two pumps. One off of my 1989 and one out of a misc. 5.9 from my class (I am majoring in diesel). Would you like me to look for the same information? Both are apart...

Come to think of it there might be another one... I will have to check.

stillsmokin

Yes, and if you have a digital camera lay the parts out for one of each of the valves for side by side comparison. I am going to post my finding for 3 different VE applications with pics (probably tomorrow). To keep the thread going smoothly I ask that everyone please try to do everything as close to the same as possible to avoid confusion of other members.

stillsmokin

Example pump number: 0 460 494 001

0= Complete Product

460= Product Class, Distributor Pump

4=Identifier for VE Injection Pump
9=Plunger Diameter:

8=8mm
9=9mm
0=10mm
1=11mm
2=12mm
3=13mm
4=14mm

4=Number of Cylinders

001= Application Number


PREPRODUCTION PUMP INFORMATION

Example: VE 4/12F 1250 RV5019

V= Distributor type injection pump
E= Denotes power rating

4= Number of cylinders
/
12=Plunger Diameter In mm

F= Flyweight Governing
1250= Full Load Governed Speed (camshaft) or 1250X2=2500 (RPM crankshaft)

RV5019= Preproduction Specification Code

FUEL INJECTION PUMP DATAPLATE

PRESENT EXAMPLE:

Made In Germany
NR 0 460 426 060 = Bosch part number
VE R 173 - 4 = Bosch alphanumeric designation
390 8219 = Cummins part number
011 643 48513 = factory code, Manufacturing date code,
Serial Number of Pump


EARLY MODEL EXAMPLE:

BOSCH Germany

ROBERT BOSCH CORP. USA
VE R 123 0 460 424 006 = Bosch alpha designation, Bosch part number
390 3354 xxxx = Cummins part#, High idle setting (rerated pumps)
927 352 06366 = Factory code, manufacturing date code, pump
serial#

VERY EARLY MODEL EXAMPLE

633 628
VE4/12F1400RV5064:

JD730

You might find this site interesting, I used it to figure out where a certain pump was used.

http://www.vepump.cn/CZB.htm

G1625S

So according to that decoding, there was a factory 14mm plunger? Perhaps not in a 6 cylinder, but maybe?

dpuckett

Yes, there was/ is a stock 14mm head. Also, I have heard rumors of a 13mm head.

Keep up the good work. While I wont ask you to share your hard work with the masses for free, I do appreciate YOUR DECISION to do so. An educated consumer is a PITA to a shop. Most of them whitewash stuff, and send Joe Public out the door with a considerably lighter wallet.

Daniel

ChrisLib

Thats the 1st thing I thought of also...hmmmmmm.

stillsmokin

Yes, they made a 14mm something 2-6 cylinder, this is information published by bosch/cummins

FWIW, the 4bt cummins (12mm) high pressure head sitting here could swap places with the VW head (9mm), scary thought.

I'll get the DV photos and measurements posted soon. It's late

G1625S

I'm gonna shoot over to the local Bosch dealer today and drop the part number denoting a 14mm 6 cylinder pump and see what happens. If they have a parts breakdown, I may have to whip out the credit card....

edit---I remember when I first started posting here a few years ago, there was a fella from Europe posting on one of the many KTA 14mm threads and he was saying something about how swapping bigger heads/plungers was common practice over there and was surprised that it wasn't going on here. Maybe Bosch stuff is easier to get ahold of on the other side of the pond....

stillsmokin

Boy, how time flies. Just wanted everybody to know I haven't forgotten this thread. I have spent a great deal of time exploring delivery valves for the VE. I have run into a little trouble figuring out and having time to post some nice photos on a low speed landline connection and explanations of the differences between different delivery valves used on bosch pumps as a whole. As well as cam plates, fuel pins, afc housings, etc. It appears that the mods used on P7100 dv's could be applied to the VE with ease. I am experimenting/machining a set of custom dv's now from a different bosch pump. They flat out shame all the DV's I have explored from other stock VE applications, but were working with a little 10 mm plunger. They should fit the VE holder and have plenty of room to flow fuel. If they work, something is about to let loose.

Sometimes to do it right you have to go out on a limb and do it on your own I guess. But I could sure use some help getting the photos posted to the thread for the first time.