Lawson1

What would you do?
I bought a 97 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 and know little about its history. My injections pump was diagnosed as dead and I am in the process of getting it fixed. I am finding terms I am unfamiliar with and conflicting information of all sorts. Can you please help me make wise choices going forward?

ABOUT THE TRUCK:
Stock truck.... from what I know, or what I thought.
Stock intake, stock exhaust. Manual transmission.
This is primarily a daily driver. In some instances I am carrying around 500 lb drums, or as many as 3 drums. The other use would be to haul a car trailer with a 5,000lb vehicle on it. I could see myself in the mountains when towing.

PROPOSED REPAIRS:
I was getting about 13.5 mpg. My engine would not start and when towed in I was told my injection pump was bad. I have since sent it to be rebuilt. There was some confusion as to what they were supposed to do to the pump, so they went with the settings it had when it came in.

I sent in the injection pump and the injectors. I was told the injectors were a performance "automatic" injectors instead of stock manual injectors. The injector pump itself was putting out 270cc. After talking to the mechanic he said stock P7100 would push about 180cc, so he pulled back the fuel flow to 235. He also sold me on Bosch +70hp Performance Injector Kit (sku# 1040753B). After some reading I am under the impression these are "marine" injectors which seem to be controversial. Mechanic wanted me to use thin set of washers I think to compensate for the degree difference from 145 to 155 degree spray pattern. I was told this before I knew anything else, so this is just my guess, including whether they are marine injectors?

In addition it was decided to increase the governor to a 3,000 rpm rather than the stock 2,500.

He also told me of two other things he felt would be imperative. Cold air intake, and 4" exhaust to allow the motor to breath with the increased fuel flow. For $300 delivered I got the exhaust and popped for the cold air as well because I believe in the need.

He also suggested boost and EGT gauges, more I can't afford. Given we are reducing fuel flow, and adding cold air and 4" exhaust, I think it should be ok, but I can see adding these down the line. This has just all gotten very expensive.

I'm questioning who set up the motor with 270cc of fuel flow without any other mods to keep EGT's down. Sounds like they should have melted the pistons from what I have read...

I don't know what the timing is presently. And could the turbo have been "turned up?" Or the boost? Not that I know how to remedy or test either of these.

So, what would you do? What should I be checking?

When it comes to gas engines, I know more than most, but diesel is a new breed to me and I don't know the base rules. I'm trying to thin out the fringe opinions and get down to a basic reliable truck with some reasonable improvements to hopefully get better overall performance and fuel economy. I drive pretty conservatively trying to squeak out any extra miles. I think the truck is quite capable stock, but the failure of my injection pump has created a swirl of questions about what I have and where to go from here.

Thanks for bearing with me, if you are still here, please let me know your opinion.

SIXSLUG

Hi Lawson, welcome to the dtr!

First, is your mechanic reputable?

Second, some of your upgrades should have been done early on a modified engine, specifically 4" min exhaust and at least boost and EGT gauges. A larger aftermarket air filter and heat shield is a good enough "cold air" set up...Search "BHAF".

Third, and I'd stress this, clutch and hydraulics, Southbend or valair for towing. Your mechanic should push this over monkeying with your fuel plate or upping your injectors, just my opinion.

See what other 12v guys think.

patdaly

I'm probably going to get beat about for this, but here goes.

There are more HACKS out there who know very little about these things masquerading as experts than we just witnessed with political "experts".

I'm not calling your guy a hack, but unless he has a Bosch certified pump bench, he is talking out his tail.
As for the pump, if it really did need rebuilt, then they can tell you EXACTLY what was done to it, and 270 CC isn't even close to a built pump. Lots of them flow 600-650 in hot configuration and some are over 800 CC.

I understand the want to "up" it a bit, but the best way to up it is to get it back to almost stock and running correctly, then tune it from there. For your needs, I would put it back 100 percent stock, Injectors and pump with the exception of putting in the 3K GSK kit, and having the pump pinned for around 15.5 degrees timing. That just makes it easy to set the pump, with the timing pins in the pump and the block, you just put her together and you have slightly advanced timing.

Mine is totally stock, as delivered from Cummins, and I have zero issues with power towing what you tow.

Anyway, once you get her back stock, running right and have saved up for a Pyro and Boost gauges, then we can work on zipping her up more than you need without breaking the bank with parts.

You don't need a bunch of parts, you need to tweak and grind your existing stock parts..........

BTW, I would inquire directly with the pump shop as to what exactly failed in the pump, that is EXCEEDINGLY rare with a 7100, usually the stinking fuel lever wasn't pulled up either due to a solenoid gunked up or a electrical glitch........ But we are past that point now.

gorms

Given where you are in the scheme of things, pyro is a must. You don't really know for sure what injectors were in it to start, but now you have marine 370's, which may run a little hot when loaded. Chances are much higher without increasing boost (search boost elbow).
So that makes a boost gauge a must imho, easy to install .
I would also highly recommend a fuel pressure gauge , make sure your last pump wasn't wiped out from lack of fuel.

Or as Pat said, put it stock and don't worry about anything.

FWIW, your stock 215hp pump is very capable, as were the stock injectors (larger then any stock auto injector). This assuming it wasnt equipped with egr.

patdaly

I guess my point was we can destroy a stock clutch without spending a hundred bucks or risking melting it down............. If the OP really is looking for a reliable daily driver, we can get it by grinding the plate and tuning the existing parts......

patdaly

Ok, I am more comfortable with your people now, if they themselves built the pump and flowed it, they have the bench. I still would like to know what they found that had failed.

I have bought from them in the past as well and had good luck with at least their parts and service.

You are right, I don't like the 370 injectors very much, they don't have the right spray angles, and were cool back when there were not better options, and you wanted to turn it up.

I am curious as to why they didn't steer you to either stock, new 215 Hp injectors or at least their 40 Hp injectors, both seem very reasonably priced.

I have never heard of a #2 fuel plate, perhaps Bully Dog stage 2? Anyway, it is more than stock, and since they flowed it, they should be able to tell you if it is suitable for your needs. If not, look on here and there is a very good picture of various plate configurations to grind your to for free.
As for timing, that is the engine timing, what we refer to as timing the pump or setting the pin timing is simply pre-setting the timing value where the notch on the input shaft is at the right location to give you your desired timing when the engine timing pin is in and the pump timing pin is in. This allows you to quickly and accurately time your engine without a bunch of work, and your stock pin timing is closer to 12.5 degrees. 16 degrees isn't out of line at all, and just slightly more than what I like at 15-1/2.

You can time the engine to whatever you want by ignoring the timing notch on the pump and using a dial indicator to set it.

Finally, with what you have described as previous modifications, I would also look to see fi you don't already have an upgraded clutch, very much more than stock and you can start slipping the stock stuff. That is why I said we could destroy your clutch with nothing more than grinding and tweaking stock parts. These things are so detuned to keep the drivelines alive that it isn't funny. The Hydraulics come into play when you get some of the more serious clutches that require more pressure to disengage, the clutch companies sell a HD clutch hydraulics package.

Lawson1

Thanks for your help, but I'm not sure if people are seeing my response. I have replied twice now, but I don't see those replies. In one case I replied in the window a message within a previous message (Quick reply to this message). In the next case I used the (Post Reply) button at the bottom of all messages. In both cases I have not seen my responses to everyone's input. Anyone get this? Everyone get this? Feel like something isn't working correctly. It appears that all posts go through a moderator, but I'm flying blind here. I did get a response from someone that clearly got my response, but I still don't see that one. So I know that the post was processed. Anyway, just thought I would float this out there. Thanks again.

Lary Ellis (Top)

All of your posts are showing up here....if you are not seeing them I suggest your browser is not refreshing properly, you might try a different browser.

If you want emails to notify you of responses you will need to go into your User CP and make sure you have the option chosen to receive emails to posts you subscribe to and be sure to subscribe to that post.

torquefan

I can see the OP's last post, but there seems to be one missing right before patdaly's last post.

Lawson1

Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting. You will now be taken back to the forum. If you opted to post a poll, you will now be allowed to do so.

(I suspect this post will show)

patdaly

Ok, I see your posts, at this point get her back together with what you already have and see how she runs.

I certainly don't see anything that is so far out of whack that you should kill the thing unless you push the smoke extra hard.

I don't know of too many pushing 35 PSI out of the stocker, but lots hit 32 without issue, the stock HG starts getting questionable about there anyway. It won't really matter, because at those levels you will have way more power than you require, WAY more.

So for now, get her running and then let us know what you think, certainly other than perhaps the Injectors, you have what looks to be about perfect for the use you describe.

I predict that with the approach that you have shown so far, it will not be long and you will be an old hat at diesels, well done!

Lawson1

Thanks patdaly,

Well, it took some work, but the truck is running and appears to be balanced well. There was a learning curve. My "mechanic", girlfriends cousin, who works on diesels did not think to match the truck to the pump, so we tried to start the truck with bad timing and had no luck. I jumped online and started to read about installing the p7100 pump and learned all sorts of "important" details.

1. The injection pump comes with a timing pin, plastic parts facing in, to hold the pump at top dead center.

2. The engine has a timing pin that allows you to set the engine at TDC as well. At that point you bolt the two parts together with 122 ft lbs of torque in the bolt.

After realizing these little details, timing slipped the first time, the truck ran amazing! First, the engine starts as soon as I start cranking. It's really shocking. The new power and extra 3k governor are very noticeable. On heavy acceleration there is just a mildly noticeable gray, not quite black, smoke coming from the truck. In other words I'm not "rolling coal" by dumping too much fuel into the cylinders.

So far so good! I won't have a chance to tow anything soon, but there is clearly more power. With the intake and the boost elbow I can hear the turbo more, but not in a bad way.

I will need to get new timing pins for the block and the pump, and I will double check the timing one more time when I get those. The tips of the pump pin got chewed off some, but no big chunks broke off, so I'm OK with that. And the engine timing pin tip got torn off in final tightening, but it stayed in place. So basically I have some little shreds of plastic floating around in the engine, but nothing substantial. But I will doublecheck once I get the new pins in. Other than that everything is good. Thank you very much for your input I really appreciate it. I still can't see any of my follow up posts though. I'm not sure why, but your input has been very helpful thanks again.

Lawson1

Well, I went from 13.5 mpg to 15.9 mpg on the first test. Still want to double check my timing, but its a good start.

The reason to double check the timing is due to slipped timing the first stab. Everything was together and starting beautifully. Problem was that we forgot to torque that timing gear down to spec. The truck ran awesome at first, and then just got worse in a hurry. Realized the timing had slipped so we took apart the gear, had to buy a puller, and in tightening the bolt, things were prone to slipping. The timing pin for the block had the tip ripped off, so I suspect we may be just a tad off of the original timing.

In summary, got my pump rebuilt and bench calibrated with 235cc flow and 14.5 degree timing, replaced and upgraded a number of parts listed above, have much more power and easier starting, and got better gas mileage. Now I just have to drive the truck for another 2.5 million miles and I'll make my investment back, unless gas diesel goes up to $6.00 a gallon, then I only have to drive 1.7 million miles.

But I've learned a lot along the way. Thanks for your input. I'll update if I can squeeze any more mileage out. All I can hope now is that the clutch and the turbo hold out for the foreseeable future.

patdaly

You sir, GET IT!

I predict you will end up being a real dieselhead.

One thing to help you out. When you get the new timing plugs and pins, set the pump and engine, but instead of torquing it right away, use say 35 Lb/Ft. first, then take both pins out and do final torque.

You can always go back later and check your timing, but you will not shear off the pins......