Im with pumpdaddy on this one.
I dont agree with 100% of Bush policies, but I agree with him a helluva lot more than clinton. I also think he is the best Pres. since Reagan.

I can't believe all of the whining I am reading on this thread.
You might think it sucks here in the U.S. but is sucks a whole lot worse everywhere else.
The economy is about to skyrocket-be happy.

My opinions:
Space exploration= technology and jobs
Unions hurt business and therfore the working man.

 

Wilson, Would you care to explain that statement " Unions hurt business and therefore the working man"??? I in the last three years AS A UNION MEMBER have seen my wage go from $14 per hour to $28.45 per hour, now hold a Mn plumbers license, a Mn pipefitters license, a power limited technician electrical license, and am state certified in "backflow prevention". How was I harmed as a union member??? DON"T get me started on how YOUR working life is BETTER BECAUSE OF UNIONS.
Tom

 

MnTom,

Just curious........how much of the $28.45 goes to union dues?

With your qualifications, what would you make as a non-union worker?


CR

 

Actually, from what I understand, if you make $28/hr at a union around $10/hr more goes toward your benefits. So the contractor is actually paying the union $38/hr just to have you work for him. So it's $28/hr, take taxes out, and that's what you have in your pocket.

And to turn this around to being a Bush policy thread, if the Mexicans take over, the unions may go down. Why would a contractor pay lots of money for people to work for him when he can hire Mexicans, train them, and pay them half as much? There are plenty of Mexicans who know how to paint, sheetrock, stucco, and pour concrete, and it's not all that hard to train them in those disciplines.

 

I'm glad Bush is nice to rich people and corporations - when was the last time a poor person or a bankrupt company offered you a job? Screwing the rich only screws everybody in the end.

 

Jack, NO I do not agree with everything that W does or says, but I beleive he is the better of two evils. If I posted what I have said about some of the bone headed decisions he's made, it'd all get bleeped.
W is listening to his "advisers" about what to do, about the only ones I beleive are shooting him straight are Rummy, Condie and Powell. From sitting and listening to W talk, he has to take time to answer the questions in as a "polite" way as he can, I think if he really answered them as he thought they should be, truthful and staight forward in "English" they'd be like mine, bleeped out , It's like when I went to court last week for something I didn't do, the judge asked me to tell my side of the story and after about 10 words, he said Mr.B, we don't use that language in my court, my answer to him was, you asked me to tell you what the kid said to me and what happened, he said that there where women present, I asked him to ask any that where offended to leave, he did so, and NONE left, at the end the whole court room was rolling laughing and he told the druggie, get out of my court room and you better thank the Good Lord this man didn't do to you what he said he would.
Back on the subject, W has made some mistakes, they all do ( oral office), crap, if they had all the answers, we'd never get rid of them, and as far as OT, yes I did get back a good chunk of it at the end of the year, but the way around that is to claim 10 dependents during the year as I finally did, I'd rather have my money up front and if I owed Uncle sam any, then I'd pay him when it was due, some people see the withholdings as a savings account, but you don't get any interest, the gov uses your money for free. I finally adjusted it to 8 dependents and broke even at the end of the year. It's funny how most people want to complain about a problem, but won't look for a solution to it, I did and found it. and NO, I don't have a degree, wait a minute, Yes I do, PHD from the school of hard knocks. When my wife starts complaining about W or anything that's going one, I only have to say "register to vote or shut up", and guess what, I get to sleep in the living room . And as far as Unions, they are a joke, go back and research why they where really started, most employees now adays, use the union to screw the employer, they where started to protect the employee from unsafe and unfair labor practices, not to be used against an employer because someone asked them to do something they wheren't hired to do, crap, I'd try to learn all the jobs at a place I could, it just makes you more valueable to them, but as momma says "stupid as stupid does". Knowledge is POWER not stupidity.

 

Well, I am glad that you think unions are a joke. I for one will be laughing all the way to the bank with my $28.45 an hour. Evidently you feel as though you are better off without them. I feel I am MUCH better off with them.
Tom

 

Splitting this thread as the subject has changed.

The last threads on this subject disintegrated into attacks.
If this one follows the same path it will be locked also.
Locks are on standby.

Keep it civil.

Ed

 

I had a nice long reply to this thead all typed out but decided to delete the whole thing and I will not respond to any more posts as to the merits of organized labor. My feelings on this subject are known.
Tom

 

Backing up what Ed said above, the last union thread started to get real nasty and was locked. While everyone is entitled to their own opinions and views, personal attacks will not be tolerated on here. If you want to show those thoughts and views, keep them civil and decent or this one will disappear also real quick. Some debates like oil use and which is the best truck go negative real quick for no reason.
Life is too short to be nasty to one another over a subject on the computer so lets keep it clean.

Thanks in advance.
Joel

 

I t is a shame that so many people have a one sided view of unions. The unions are there to protect the working man, make sure he is paid a decent wage for his efforts, and insure that what happens in the job place is fair, legal, and safe. There are jobs out there were the employer is honest, forthright, and cares enough about the worker to pay him well for his efforts and to see that his health and welfare needs are meet. Only problem is there are not enough jobs like that to go around. Most care very little about the worker and job safety is not a priority. In fact, this has become a crises in America, not enough good paying jobs to go around. I am not talking about getting rich, we are far,far from that. I am referring to good honest work, that pays enough to provide housing for your family, and a future for them as well. Nothing fancy or over the top, just the basics with the hope and chance that you will be able to provide for your children, and one day be able to send them to college, so they might be able to have a better life.
It is funny how many working people and opposed to a union. The one organization that could help them live a better and more productive life. Why? My father was a union pipe-fitter, he never got rich or had anything fancy, but he worked every day and he enjoyed his job. I followed and joined the union after my time in the service, I was and still am proud to be apart of such a fine organization. I have worked many jobs wear both union and non-union labor maned the job. Usually on jobs like that, the union contractor has the major systems and the non-union contractors bid on the fit out. The difference is more then just how much someone is paid per hour, is goes deeper then economics. On average the skill level is much higher, and the demands on the worker are greater. The jobs are run smoother and the safety records show that union jobs do more then just pay better, then save lives as well. The workers that are union are schooled in there trade, with and average on five years in apprenticeship. They are expected to know there trade and do a good job, work hard, work safe and represent the local well. There is a saying that you get what you pay for, I thought about that when I purchased my Cummins, It's a world class engine assembled by union people. I never understood why someone would not want to be part of a union? But then again, I never understood why someone would buy anything other then a Cummins Diesel.

 

MnTom and All,

I'm sure no one took any real offense for anything anyone said. I know I didn't agree with everyone, but that's ok.

I know I have my opinions and you and everyone else has theirs. Religion, politics, unions, horses, who caught the biggest fish and who shot the biggest buck are subjects that can NEVER have a "winner".

Afterall, we're all stuck on the planet together......let's make the most of it.


CR

 

Being from the Northeast, labor unions are a big part of the workforce here.
I am a member of one of these unions. With that being said, I will try to make this short.

I believe in the old saying, an honest days work for an honest day's pay.
In my 8 years of belonging to the union I have seen, worked with some very hard working people.
Their work ethic is to be commended. They take pride in what they do, always maintain a professional attitude. These people will always have a job. Even if they are not members of the union.
The pay rate for this and many other unions is greater than that of most non union shops. We all know the benefits of belonging to a union. Health coverage, retirement plan, pay rate, etc...

There is, however another side to this, you all knew this was coming.
In this union, and I am sure other members of other unions will also attest to this.
There are those who are just along for the ride, do as little as possible, for as much as they can get.
These individuals are what gives the unions a bad name. ( I really am trying to contain myself here.) They are nothing short of amazing in their knowledge of every law, by-law, stipulation, and amendment in their union handbook.
These individuals will use this to their own advantage. To these people, the union is a crutch in which they use to justify their laziness. I personally have no tolerance for these individuals.
OK, now that I have counted to ten, I will continue.
I also own a small non-union construction company. From time to time I will employ someone when I feel the need. This employee is expected to work as hard as myself. I will not ask anyone to do something that I would not do myself.
I will pay this person a very good rate. I will treat this person with respect. In turn I expect an honest day's work. I do not think this is too much to ask.

I think this is what the originators of these unions had in mind when organizing these unions. Instead it has turned into a feeding trough for those who have learned how to manipulate the system. Kind of like the government. That is another rant for another day.
For those who want to work, there will always be a job. Those who want to work and make a good wage, provide for their family, and retire with a good pension, will most likely join a union.
On the down side, those who would like to show up, slack off all day, get top dollar, and generally complain about everything will also join the union.
I do not believe that this is what our forefathers envisioned when they started these unions.


As far as the president, i'll make this short.
Think about this.
We all want the smartest person in the world to be the president,
but does the smartest guy in the world really want to be the president?
Until that day comes, we must choose the lesser of two evils, weed through the BS, and make an informed decision on who we would like to be the leader of these United States Of America.
If you don't vote, you have no choice but to deal with the decision of those around you.

Stepping off the soapbox now.
Rich

p.s., PumpDaddy, I'm with you on this one

 

Tom,
I am with you on the UNIONS!!

My life and work situation has only been bettered working under contract, and represented by a Union.

I am also a full-time Union shop steward where I work.

--Justin

 

There are very few job markets left that require unions. I will state my cases and points as brief as possible.

First my background...I have never been in a union, but have worked with union construction workers in the past(seen lots of people milking the jobs there). I come from 3 generations of Chrysler workers, my dad just retired after 34years. He was a UAW member. He was pro-union until 2 years before he retired.

Unions started mainly for the lack of government regulations on worker safety conditions. The collective bargaining process was to insure decent hours and working conditions not pay and benefits. The latter 2 evolved over time. I agree wholly that unions were necessary in their day.

Government regulation had made working conditions safe in almost all fields of employment. There will always be some exceptions, but for the most part safety is no longer an issue (lawsuits have taken care of that). Worker qualifications can easily be replaced with certifications. Just like ASE is to auto mechanics or CCIE is to info technology. We don’t need unions to dictate quality. Reputation also plays a big part. So do references.

Unions today exist mostly for person economic reasons, pay and benefits. The market today is more that capable of providing a decent wage without the need for unions. The problem is us lazy Americans believe that I want to do X job and get paid X amount to do it. For instance, factory assembly lines; There is no reason our factories could not be 95% automated in the machining and assembly processes. That would reduce costs and line defects. Unfortunately, workers that refuse to learn a new trade and resist change causing us to maintain costly antiquated infrastructure. The jobs lost on assembly lines would be gained by more technical ones required to maintain the robots and computers running the line.

Resistance to change is costing us our American companies. Like I stated earlier, we Americans like to pay bottom dollar for top quality. The economics of that is the costs have to be saved somewhere for a company to compete and make a profit to stay in business. That equates to moving factories out of the country to reduce overhead and stay price competitive. If the big 3 moved all the factories back to the US and hired union labor to build everything, the cost of all our products would go up. Paying someone $20 some an hour is just not feasible to put nut A on bolt B. Especially when we have the technology to automate positions like that.

As far as those that view companies as the EVIL corporate empire...Just remember they sign your pay checks. A company has to make a profit in order to pay their employees and stay competitive. Company profit equals growth. There is not a company on the planet that would be content and just taking the profit and saying that is good enough. The way they stay in business is by offering new products and services. That also means jobs and new facilities to build those new products. We no longer just compete with companies in the US. We compete globally and with imports. The Japanese cars still out do us in quality most of the time. Not only that, but they can do it cheaper since their factories are mostly robotic. How are the big three supposed to compete while still paying high wage overhead to union workers? They can't, so factories move out of the country. I watched GM workers strike their way out of a job in Michigan a number of years ago. GM needed to refit the plant and automate many of the stamping processes. They even offered job training to upgrade the skills of workers. I am sure many positions would have been eliminated and few new ones created. Now there are none, but those union guys sure showed GM.

Another instance is companies like Walmart that are non-union. I hear all the time how poorly the workers are paid and how bad their schedules are. So why work there? If people didn’t apply for jobs there, then Walmart would have to offer better pay and benefits to attract workers. As long as people are willing to work under those conditions, why would Walmart want to offer more?

Our society is becoming more and more technical. There are thousands of technical jobs out there, but there is a catch to getting them. You need to get educated on the technology. The job market is evolving into people getting paid according to their knowledge and expertise, this is rightly so. That is why union jobs and membership has been shrinking over the last 30 years.

Here is the story from my dad. He was an avid UAW supporter for as long as I could remember. Chrysler went through some different changes than other companies did. Back in the 80’s after their company bailout from the government, they were still struggling to get back on their feet. They were forced to automate many of their processes in order to stay competitive. They really didn’t have a choice and that is the way it was put to my dad. They could either upgrade their skills to support new methods of production or Chrysler was going to have to close plants. The UAW negotiated an unusual contract to where their pay scale would depend on how technical their job was. Chrysler also offered college tuition to learn the technologies they were going to use. My dad took full advantage of that and got paid accordingly. There were many that didn’t and some were laid off because of it. In 2000 Chrysler wasn’t doing so well because of the economy, so they started offering early retirement packages. My dad opted to put a few more years in to get a better pension package. A lot of the old timers nearing retirement that he worked with took the early outs. Chrysler started hiring new workers to replace the retired ones starting at $16/hr base union wage. The first thing my dad ran into was the work ethic of the younger workers wasn’t as good. They would show up late, drunk, hungover, or not at all. When they were there, they didn’t want to learn what my dad was trying to teach them. They were more interested in the time to go home. This wasn’t everyone but quite a few in his department. Well, production doesn’t stop because of some bad apples, so the burden was shifted on my dad to keep things running. He filed complaints with management about the new workers, but they couldn’t do anything because the union protected them. He filed complaints with the union, but they did nothing as long as they got their union dues from the workers, they didn’t care. They were sending other workers home early and putting my dad on 12 hour days, 7 days a week. One new guy got diagnosed for a drug problem and got 12 weeks off PAID to attend rehab. After a month of being back from rehab, he relapsed and spent another 12 weeks at a clinic. So that’s six months he got paid for not working. How did Chrysler benefit from his labor? My dad finally got fed up with all the hours and lack of help. He took the next retirement package they offered. Instead of working another 5 years like he wanted, he worked 2 and couldn’t get out of the door fast enough.

So when your rear diff on your new Ram isn’t filled all the way or your doors aren’t adjusted properly, think who’s fault it really might be. Chrysler quality control with their hands tied.

In my final remarks, I wish to leave everyone with something inspirational. For those of you that are union, why do you wish to limit yourself? Why do you want to limit your income earning potential to the next union contract? Corporate America is so starved for quality hard working people. There is no limit on what you can do if you pursue it. If you are an excellent pipe fitter, then why not become your own contractor? Instead of the union getting $10 an hour of your pay, why not make all $38 yourself and take the extra $10 and invest it for retirement?

-Muzzy