OK, all you union guys, count to 10 and think before you type. We're watching this one.

 

I think the 10 dollars an hour union dues stated is a bit high, I'm an IBEW member , I made 98,000 last year and my union dues amounted to a whole 697 dollars for the year

as for your dad's experience (I don't doubt it's true) I got to say somethings wrong there cause guys acting like that here would be out the door (I've seen it happen)

I get paid very well for what I do and I have certification for my job, but I'm expected to do a good job or I may end up seeing the door

I've never worked construction but it sounds to me like there's a lot of corruption in those unions and they need to be cleaned up or scrapped all together and new ones started up

and as for the saftey thing .............. my dad works in a mine and people still die there every year, and most of the time the company gets caught not following saftey rules ...........the fines they get are so small they just pay em and keep on with there bad practices

I don't know what the answers are to these problems but I must say if unions weren't around work conditions wouldn't be near as nice as they are now

 

Just because someone is good at there job, does not mean they what to become a contractor. Many people do not want the long hours and uncertain future, of being your own boss. There is a huge difference between being a very good and knowledgeable worker, and running a business. I have done both, and unless you are the type that likes the pressures and challenges of the business world, then it may not be for you. Most non-union construction workers are hired as sub-contractors. Yes this means that they are self employed, but it does not mean they are a contractor. The fact is they are just one man operations that work for someone, with the reasoning being, to get around certain laws. As a sub-contractor they are responsible for there would Taxes,Insurance both heath and liability, and the contractor get buy with out paying workers compensation payments. So the contractor has every thing to gain, and no responsibility or liability for the worker. While the worker can boast that he is self employed, and his own boss, it means very little. The truth is he is being played for a fool, he gets very little for each job he does, and has no rights but all the responsibilities for the job. This is very common practice in the residential and small business community. I have seen and worked both sides, and there is no comparison between the two. Union workers are better trained, safer to work around, better people to work with, better paid for there efforts, have better health insurance, actually do have a pension plan (something un-herd of elsewhere), and live better lives. Also, it was mentioned that todays society has become more high tech and automated. This is very true, and actually plays into the unions hand. Todays systems are more complex and require smarter and better trained service people. Union members are trained for 4-5 years about there trade, then they are offered schooling to continue their education and be specialized in there Field. Unions are constantly up-dating their training courses and adding new ones as the industry progresses.
Also since our society has become more computer dependent and less "hands on", the need for union labor is growing, seems like fewer and fewer people non days want to get there hands dirty.
I can not imagine working in my Field and not being pro union. Why not? Why wouldn't someone want to work in a safe environment? Why wouldn't you want to work with trained and educated people? Why would you not want to make a decent living, be covered by a good health plan, have a pension plan to look out for your future (also if you get injured) and be part of a great organization? There are always going to be those that are afraid of the un-known, not want to experience change. I feel sorry for you if this is your case, you are the ones that have been "brain washed" my your lack of knowledge. And it is you that will suffer for your ignorance, you and your family that is.

I have been in my Field for some time, I am a general foreman for a medium sized contractor. I see people come and go all the time, while I have been on jobs that was maned by both union and non-union employees, I have seen many guy's see the light and join up at there local union office. But I have never, ever seen someone go to the non-union side.
Also union scale's are different depending on what part of the country you are in. Union dues are not a huge part of ones payroll deductions, I make 37.00/hour have a benefit package of 10.50/hour and my dues are about 2.50/hour. I enjoy my job, and have always looked forward to the work day, I find it interesting and a challenge. And while some complain about others just along for the ride, this is true in all Fields, and represents a very small percentage.

AMERICAN BY BIRTH....UNION BY CHOICE.

 

I don't buy that for one minute,I was watching Lou Dobbs last night and talking about how since Bush took over the rich have gotten richer and the middles class have lost money,even a two income family cannot make ends meet.
Any president who wants to end overtime for the working class people is not looking out for our best interest,I just cannot fathom how someone can support a man like this.
And for unions I am all for them,the woking man and women need someone to stand up for them.

 

I'm all for unions. I would just like to know if they're run the same way as here in AK. I've heard from a friend that he went to a company for a job in California, got the job, and was told he had to join the Ironworker's union to keep the job because it was a union company.

But here in AK, you don't go to the company for a job at a union shop. You go to the union, sign up on a sheet and wait your turn to be called for a job based on your qualifications and when you signed up on the sheet. Mind you, this is AFTER you've paid your month's dues. So, if you don't get called you have no idea if they just skipped over you or if there aren't any jobs available. I have no idea of knowing what jobs they currently have, what qualifications are necessary, who is making the decisions as to who is hired and who isn't, or if they're just picking their friends off of the list and giving them all the jobs.

Personally, I cannot tailor my life to be flexible enough to be making some money temporarily and constantly wait for somebody's phone call. Essentially, it looks like the unions up here are just like temp agencies.

 

Tom, I did not mean to offend you or any other union members here with my comments. My Daddy was Union Steward at Hayes Aircraft in Birmingham for many years, he'd come home and be fit to be tied, some times because of the company, some times because of the worthless employees. The case that sticks in my mind the most is one with a black guy that daddy had to represent at the hearing, daddy told us this guy never missed a day of work, worked his butt off, and the foreman had him laid off for going to the bathroom because he was about to pee on his self, this was when Nam was hot and heavy, daddy almost brought that plant to a stand still for this man, and almost lost his job in the process, he would also tell us about people that would not work and could not be fired, and he had to represent them also. The union was formed to protect the employee from butt hole employers, but there are people that want to take advantage of the system. My son is in the union here in B'ham in his current job, they placed him in a manager position for 6 weeks until they could hire a new one, he never belly ached or complained, it was me and his mom that told him he should ask for the extra pay, if you do the job, get the pay. We have our own business, and have a few part time (old farts) that help me with the machining of the parts, when they are at the shop, they can stop ANY time they want and go pee, they can smoke, they have a full fridge of things to drink, and if they want they can order anything they want for lunch or dinner from anywhere in our area, my wife is more than glad to be the goffer for the meals, and when she returns with the food, I can't make them turn the machine off, they eat while working. Maybe companies should look at treating their employees as people and as an investment, and maybe people should take a different look as to how they look at their employer. I'm not saying that one or the other is good or bad, just that both abuse the system, and most of the time it's the employee, and all that does is drive up the cost of the products we produce. For all the young little whipper snappers that think they know so much, do your research about unions and why they where formed and what they ORIGINALLY stood for. I'm not against unions, just against the sorry worthless no good people that get in them and then screw the rest of us

 

I still don't think Little George has done that bad. The cigar boy did leave him with a pretty messed up economy.

I've lived on a fixed income for 41/2 years (retired) and my life style has changed very little. With the exception of diesel and prescription drugs, my expenses have gone up very little.

If you look back through history, the economy has ALWAYS fluctuated up and down. A lot of the people out of work is the result of the down side. I worked right in the middle of the simiconductor industry which was probably the hardest hit, and I still know a lot of people out of work. Unfortunatly, people are not as adaptable as they used to be. Some people are still waiting around for an equal or better paying job. They need to face reality and get on with the program. At some technical trades, there is just not enough jobs! When the farming industry couldn't support the little guy, he adapted and went to the cities to find a way to support his family. Same with a lot of cattle operations.

Scan the newspapers and the internet. There are a lot of jobs out there if one is willing to scarifice for a while and start over again. If your a good, hard worker, sooner or later it will pay off! When the stock market was bad, I didn't want to be a greeter at Wal-Mart.........but I would have if that's what it had come to.

As I said before, I'm not a fan of big business and I don't like some of their perks, but big business and rich people create jobs. My friends Jimmy the plummer and Dave the electrition are great guys and my best friends, but their businesses don't create a lot of jobs.

We need to stop the "federal and state giveaway programs" for the people sitting around waiting for something that isn't going to happen. Maybe we need to bring back programs like the "WPA". "WPA" ???? Look it up!

CR

 

Let's see Lou Dobbs yea he know's. The rich get richer and the middle class have lost money. It is hard for me to understand how Dobb's can blame a president that was in office for less than a year (when the recession thing started) for the economy. I think this thing is square in the lap of Clinton Myself. The effects of any presidents administration are not that immediate as Lou would like you to believe. We as americans salute these efforts as if they happen overnight and blame the guy that is there for letting it happen when in fact there is no way that Bush could have screwed things up that bad that fast if he wanted to. It really is time for us to think for ourselves. I for one do not need Lou Dobbs, Howard Dean Rush Limbaugh or any host of others to do my thinking for me. What this country lacks the most is people with enough common sense to think for themselves.

In my business I had to pay a higher wage than anywhere else in the world for the same tasks, Maintain a safe work enviroment safer than anywhere else in the world, Paid higher payroll taxes including the social security tax that matched what the worker contributed, and deal with the Epa and whatever other agency that needed to regulate us. In doing so this business provided oppotunities for (50) people and families for over 30 years and is still doing so after I sold it. I love America and all she offers but I don't understand how those people that have never provided jobs and oppotunities can so readily tell the rest of the people how it is or should be with such conviction. Or how those that took all the risk are so undeserving of the fruits of the labor. Most of American business is still the small guy that starts with an idea or a passion and builds it into something with over 50% of those startups failing in the first years. So those of us that make it are a bunch of rich guy's to the employee that are picking thier pockets. We get to pay the most taxes and recieve the least amount of services for these taxes (opposite of what many believe) we are Taxed on our real properties and then not allowed to vote in any of the elections as to how thse tax dollars are used ( taxation without representation)

Well I am getting off the thread subject her but it riles me to think that we as Americans are so niave as to think that a President is to blame for what the Guy before him has done and then we can't figure it out without some Idiot telling us how it is. Tell Me what are the credentials of Lou Dobbs anyhow.

 

True, things were messed up when Clinton left. The day he left office he just got done signing a bill that closed off the Tongass Nat'l Forest (or whatever it's called) in AK to lumbering. The lumber communities and everybody in general suffered from that loss. Thankfully, Bush just repealed that bill a couple months ago and now the lumber industry is starting to wind back up.

And it was Jimmy Carter that us Alaskans thank for locking up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) to keep the oil industry out of the largest oil field in North America. Imagine what would happen if an area the size of Texas and filled w/ oil was tapped!

 

There are a lot of factors all over the world that will affect a country's economy. This subject is rather deep. I think you'd have to spend years analyzing the facts before you can figure out what needs to be done. Even then, no 2 people will have the same opinion.

This whole thing is like a deep ethical or philosophical discussion w/ no end and no clear answer!

 

My Dad too was a Union Pipefitter for many years...he did NOT get rich by any means and worked his bag off every single day he was at work. When I was growing up, unions provided me with the basics of life and a few luxuries like health care and the occasional trip to the dentist that I probably wouldnt have had if Dad wasnt a UA member. I thank him and the UA for that.

Myself, Ive worked a variety of jobs - trade related, technical related and operations - both union and non-union. I will say for the most part that everyone that Ive worked with that was a part of a Union was by far much more competant, professional and safe. As well, when you are part of a union you are expected to do good work and are held accountable for that work. Most of the low lifes and tards that Ive worked with have been on non-union jobs - they are mostly worried about keeping their job long enough so they can buy their next case of beer - just my experience.

I worked non-union in the oilpatch for a few years - I used to work a 12 hour day (minimum) with no overtime - often 6 or 7 days a week as well. Id be driving home after a 12 hour day and would get a call asking me to work in the shop for another 3 hours for straight time. There was days when Id be at the shop at 6:30 am and wouldnt get home until 10:00 pm or later....all for straight time....and NO benefits....If you guys want to work non-union have fun....

As a comparision, I now work a job that is covered by a collective bargaining agreement. I am on call this weekend. I was called out this morning and spent 4 hours fixing some equipment to keep an 800 MegaWatt power plant running. I think its more than fair to get paid doubletime to keep the plant running and pay me for my expertise.

Things are much better for me as part of a Union - I know that I wouldnt have my Cummins if it wasnt for a Union, certainly couldnt afford it on non-union wages.

 

I think it all comes down to this. If your industry can support union wages and benefits and still operate profitably and efficiently in the economies that it caters to , then unions would appear to be beneficial. BUT, if your industry is being squeezed with shrinking profits/losses because of cheaper labor forces/suppliers here or abroad, you are likely going to unionize yourself out of a job. Many small communities have been destroyed because of this behaivour. People like to point fingers at big business or the rich and say that they are being favored. This is partly true. Look at what happened during the slump/recesssion in the economy that Bush had inherited from Clinton. Profits were down, Stocks were falling, massive layoffs, greenspan dropping the interest rate at unprecedented levels just to encourage borrowing and spending to get the growth back in the economy. Heck ya the little guys spending is important here but what is really important to get the economy moving is the capital improvements and expenditures of the big corporations and the Institituitional and Private investors puttings their eggs on the line in the face of fear and unknown. This all creates jobs for you and me alike. **** sure I make more money than the guy pounding nails or the guy hanging drywall on my homes, but the fact remains it is my risk and venture and others like me that even gives him the ability to make the wage that he gets. Most people have made many choices in their life and their place in life is ultimately a culmination of their decisions thus far. The cream should always be allowed to rise to the top. Socialistic systems (read: Unions) and functions tend to distort the natural actions and reactions in life. Any hardworking guy with a token of common sense can make it in this country, and MAKE IT BIG. Why on Earth do all these foreigners come to our country anyway? Because of the Unions? No way, they much rather prefer the open economy and freedoms that we enjoy to make a success of themselves which many of them ultimately do. My 2 bits.

 

This is the key to a successful business as many companies large and small have found out. If the employees get treated like a number, that is probably the service the company is going to get. I saw an article on the lady that use to be in charge of GM a while back, can't remember her name at this time. She said she didn't know a tire from a battery but she was in the plants every day shaking hands with the people. What a concept.
We have an outside machine company that comes in and does work for us at the plant when we don't have the equipment or the people. I called the VP (owner) of the company up at 08:00 one Sunday morning and one hour later, he was in my office in his coveralls ready to solve the problem. What a concept. His people support him 110 per cent and say they would work for no one else.
Threads look good guys, keep up the good work.

 

I remember reading something or seeing something on TV about how the Japanese have revamped their labor system. It was very interesting and different from our's, but it works and keeps the people happy. Too bad I don't remember any of the details or concepts they use!

 

Joining in late which is probably good, as I would have probably got the thread shut down. I heard it best from a guy at work who's been in the field for 20 or so years, "The only time in my career that i'm laid off is when a Bush is in office". I personally like some things about bush like chasing sadamm and Osama but it pretty much stops there. I'm no politician here but seems to me that the only president that did anything towards the lazy scoundrals was Clinton saying welfare's over baby "Get a Job". So many baby factories had to go to work "very sad". Anyways i'm a licensed union electrican and the only quality that comes on a juob site is union made... I used to wear levi's, now that there over sea's tried a pair and they ripped like cloth. Same for Carhartt "Toughest clothes around". When they were all american made they were strong and fit good, now half are made in mexico and good luck with that pair. Anyways back to electricans and union's. In Minnesota it takes around 8000 hours to apply to take your lincesing test, no other training other than on the job. To EVEN APPLY for the union one must already have a 2 YEAR College "Technical" degree. Once accepted you are subject to 4 YEARS of apprecticeship training in the class room and on the job before you can even think of taking your test. Let's see some non-union wanna be come in and try hooking up and getting to run an industrial plant with over 700 motors. In order for you to have quality you must pay for it. Example, look at your house which is usually non-union because the builder wants all the money. The wiring is terrible if you go down to your basement and look up, VERY UGLY. Also after that nice new truck pulls up and the ten MEXICAN's jump out and hop on your roof making $5/hour will the owner sits there in his pretty closes not getting dirty and laughing all the way to the bank. Tell me how ya like it. Fianlly must say that a guy at work had an electric panel blow up in his face and because he's no good for a while take wild guess at you's making sure he and his family are taking care of him, can you say union.. Last but not least, I hate to see them "OSHA" but they are for my own good and who do you think brought them into exsitence. Unions dictate the wages paid by the non-union, go to a right to work state where the union is not strong and see how much a electrican makes there, can you say half.... All's I can say is UNION YES.

Sorry for the spelling after posting and reading, I realized I was a little hot and went a little fast.