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Add hydrogen for better mpg

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Old 11-11-2005, 05:34 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree DR
From info I've found it takes 4 hydrogen moleculs to 1 oxygen molecule to burn efficiently. I have wondered why at idle I'm not seeing any increase in rpm, since I'm adding more fuel (hydrogen)? How much hydrogen befor its a run away motor? Why can't we increase productoin of hydorgen to say 50% of fuel burned instead of 20%?
Tree DR - I'm still skeptical on this. Here's why. Let's say you take away all the diesel from the engine ... at idle even. How much Hydrogen would be needed to create the same amount of power, as the now absent diesel fuel, to achieve idle? I admit I'm a complete novice on this concept, but it would seem like it would have to be quite a bit of Hydrogen mixed with air to work. Maybe it wouldn't even work at all because it needs the diesel fuel ignition to trigger the Hydrogen ignition. I don't know.

But the point is: How much Hydrogen would it take to equal the power from the necessary amount of diesel from at idle. I think it would be a significant amount. And that significant amount would be exponentially more than what your system(s) can produce.

Also, you say it takes 4 Hydrogen molecules to 1 Oxygen molecule to burn efficiently. If air is 20% Oxygen, that would be 1 part Oxygen within every 5 parts of "air." That means that you would need nearly 1 part of Hydrogen to every 1 part of "air" entering the engine. Nearly a 50 - 50 mix. Is your system making that much Hydrogen? I highly doubt it. [Explanation - 1 part Hydrogen to 1 part air = 1 part Hydrogen to 0.2 parts air. This is 5 parts of Hydrogen to 1 part Oxygen. Its not 4 H to 1 O like you said above, but close enough to make point]

But let's step back.

Let's say you only want to use 5% less diesel fuel at idle, and substitute the balance of power needed at idle with hydrogen. That amount of Hydrogen would still be fairly large I think. I think even that much would difficult for your system.

So ... for street use where diesel fuel's useage is increased substantially, the hydrogen amounts would have to be LARGE. And I just can't see that happening from these systems you guys are talking about. Maybe I'm wrong. But I would tend to think that if these systems had good merit, these systems would already be in place from the OEM's, maybe just due to continuous improvement of technology.

There are vehicles built (fuel cells) that use hydrogen & oxygen for fuel (water is the by-product) and produce electricity. They work great, little or no pollution, good power. The problem with them as I remember is packaging. The hydrogen and oxygen tanks have to be large, and still the range of the vehicles is too small. To refill the tanks is more complex and dangerous with a compressed combustible gas than it is with an uncompressed liquid which follows the laws of gravity.

I commend you guys for trying this, but I think your efforts are futile, and your improved economy is from improved driving techniques. Don't get me wrong, I'm not poo-pooing this. I'm just skeptical and would welcome being shown how dumb I am. Flame suit on.

- JyRO
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Old 11-11-2005, 06:34 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Tree DR
From info I've found it takes 4 hydrogen moleculs to 1 oxygen molecule to burn efficiently. I have wondered why at idle I'm not seeing any increase in rpm, since I'm adding more fuel (hydrogen)? How much hydrogen befor its a run away motor? Why can't we increase productoin of hydorgen to say 50% of fuel burned instead of 20%?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The most effecient is 1H to 1O >>> But that is if you are going to run only on these gasses.
I think in a diesel it will just be a catylist to help the burn and not supplement the burn. Like Propane and Nos.
OG
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Old 11-11-2005, 08:42 PM   #63
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Skepticism is good. Information is better!

I'm not possitive these things work either. Some times mine does and some times it doesn't. I've seen it work enough to know it's not driveing habits. As I've said elswhere if not on this thread I've had 6 Dodge diesels counting this one so driving habits are pretty well set. About the volume of hydrogen I have no info on that yet. How much production depends on a lot of things. How much surface area, how close they are to one another. How much we can tax the alternator? Information is so helpfull. If you don't think this will work prove it because the earth was once flat you know.
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Old 11-12-2005, 09:48 PM   #64
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the processes your are doing is called electrolysis, if it wasnt already mentioned. the reason for adding backing soda or salt or acids to the water is because pure water is a poor conductor of electricity. the production of H and 02 can be increase by supplying a higher current across the field, making the water a more efficient conductor or pressurizing the system. with enough power the reaction can be very violent. also the H and O2 can be recombined in a similar reaction to form water again but its not spontaneous and requires more energy than to seperate it
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Old 11-12-2005, 10:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilguy
Originally Posted by Tree DR
From info I've found it takes 4 hydrogen moleculs to 1 oxygen molecule to burn efficiently. I have wondered why at idle I'm not seeing any increase in rpm, since I'm adding more fuel (hydrogen)? How much hydrogen befor its a run away motor? Why can't we increase productoin of hydorgen to say 50% of fuel burned instead of 20%?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The most effecient is 1H to 1O >>> But that is if you are going to run only on these gasses.
I think in a diesel it will just be a catylist to help the burn and not supplement the burn. Like Propane and Nos.
OG
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well theres your answer to one question guys . Your not substituting the diesel fuel with hydrogen, you are increasing the efficiency of the diesel fuel by causeing better atomization.
Also arn't our cummins RPM at idle controled by the computer? So if the added hydrogen makes it want to idle at say 1200 the computer will back it down to the set 850 by not feeding so much diesel in. Thus a fuel saveing at idle.
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Old 11-12-2005, 10:31 PM   #66
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I built one today, installed on work truck, gets 7.4 mpg evey tank I will post results next weekend. One feller said his was drawing 30 amps,mine is drawing just .4amps with two 1/2 inch bolts 2,1/2'' long. Maybe I need more surface area, will tinker some in the future.

Jed
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Old 11-13-2005, 10:08 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepp
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Also arn't our cummins RPM at idle controlled by the computer? So if the added hydrogen makes it want to idle at say 1200 the computer will back it down to the set 850 by not feeding so much diesel in. Thus a fuel saving at idle.
A 24 valve is controlled by computer but not a 12.
Seems logical to me that if you are adding enough H that the idle on a 12 would increase.
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Old 11-13-2005, 01:08 PM   #68
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violent reactions

If you put the electrodes closer together the more violent the reaction. Also produces more gas. I have used a battery charger to test diferent setups. 2,10,50amps the more amps the more reaction but not with 110 the 60hz alternatting current AC doesn't let the process start on one pole before it jumps back to the other. I've heard that if you slow the hz down between 2 and 7 it works well. I still don't know about the volume of air required with the H and O at idle to increase it? I did leave my air intake tube loose at the turbo one day and notice a lot more low end torque. Wonderd about pushing air in at low rpm to help?
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Old 11-16-2005, 01:05 AM   #69
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I just came across this and it reminded me of this thread.
This guy is selling these things to truckers for $4,000 to $14,000, and the truckers seem to like them according to the article

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0...w=wn_tophead_7
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Old 11-16-2005, 07:56 AM   #70
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More info is good!

Thanks Cole I hade seen something like that not the one you found that claimed 20% for truckers for 2,000$ or so.
I am seeing more success with my unit now. 21MPG in town pulling a 5,000lb trailer when empty. Hope I can continue this pattern.
Has anyone tried this on the 3 gen trucks?
Anyone else out there seeing any results from their hydro units?
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Old 11-16-2005, 08:45 PM   #71
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Well My anode is gone/dissolved. Time for a new can and plate probes.
Tree, what did you use for the bucket?

AJ
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Old 11-17-2005, 08:56 AM   #72
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Containers?

I did start out with a 2.5 gal. bucket. But now I'm useing 4" pvc pipe. This one has seven 6" stainless steel bolts and 3' of # 4 copper wire in it and it will boil the water off. I think I'm in the over kill mode again though. I didn't get to really test it since I traded trucks and didn't fill up again. It appeared from my fuel gage that it wasn't the right ratio. To much hydrogen. I can only go on what I have seen before that I can reduce my fuel mileage if I have to much. If what someone said is true hydrogen only help the burn process and that is the improvement kind of like acetone to much doesn't help. Since I traded to this 04 with the over head fuel mileage I hope to figure out the right amount of hydro. soon.
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Old 11-20-2005, 01:59 PM   #73
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Ready to fine tune

Useing stainless for the possitive electrode is a deffinite plus so far no corrosion and everything works longer with out haveing to fix it. Copper for the negative seems to work as good as bolts and I find it easier to work with than more bolts.
I just got my unit installed on the new truck so now to see what ratio to get the best mileage?
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Old 11-20-2005, 03:37 PM   #74
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Well then...
Why not make the cannister in copper and be the cathode and center a(one) piece of 321s/s for anode ?
Seems the reaction is dependent of size of probes, concentration of electrolyte and voltage. (hmm adjustable dc power supply...)
Is it me or... it seems that it has a wee bit more go(off the line),I swear feeling less pep when water is low and reaction slows down.

aj
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Old 11-20-2005, 06:54 PM   #75
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low end torque

Yes that is the first thing I noticed was a little more on the low end couldn't really tell if it did any on top. Sounds like you know how to fab stuff. Yes a copper box as the negative and I can't remember the stainless # but I think it was 304? How can you connect in the tank? You don't want a spark inside or boom. I'm still trying to get it working on my 04. Thought it was but no signs of it. Two fills so far 13.1 and 15 mpg. Not so good, worse than the 97.
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