Water Injection
08-10-2009, 01:14 PM
#152
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08-10-2009, 01:22 PM
#153
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Just to revisit potential for rust in Plenum and on Pistons for a minute.....
I would make two points....
1- When I had to replace my head at 160,000 miles, due to Firerings 'letting go', I found NO rust in plenum or on piston crowns.
I don't use rust inhibitors with my 5 yr old Snows Kit. I just have a 5 min rule.
Run it down the road, if I can, or idle it, for 5 min before shutting it down, after last use of H2O/Meth injection.
2- My real conundrum stems from a fact I learned long ago... from Catipillar research done in the 50's and 60's.
CAT found the average diesel engine produces 1 gallon of water for every gallon of fuel burned.
The water comes from condesation; from heating and cooling of intake air in the cylinder.
This H2O was the main cause of sulfuric acid formation when high sulfur diesel fuel was in use (It takes H2O and sulfur to produce H2SO4).
If this fact still applies, why has rust not been a problem in the past? One answer might be because cylinder temps are well above boiling point of H2O, and all the moisture goes out the exhaust as steam.
Concern for possible rust formation in the Plenum... is another matter.
But, as mentioned, it did not reared it's head for me after 5 yrs of H2O/Meth injection??
RJ
I would make two points....
1- When I had to replace my head at 160,000 miles, due to Firerings 'letting go', I found NO rust in plenum or on piston crowns.
I don't use rust inhibitors with my 5 yr old Snows Kit. I just have a 5 min rule.
Run it down the road, if I can, or idle it, for 5 min before shutting it down, after last use of H2O/Meth injection.
2- My real conundrum stems from a fact I learned long ago... from Catipillar research done in the 50's and 60's.
CAT found the average diesel engine produces 1 gallon of water for every gallon of fuel burned.
The water comes from condesation; from heating and cooling of intake air in the cylinder.
This H2O was the main cause of sulfuric acid formation when high sulfur diesel fuel was in use (It takes H2O and sulfur to produce H2SO4).
If this fact still applies, why has rust not been a problem in the past? One answer might be because cylinder temps are well above boiling point of H2O, and all the moisture goes out the exhaust as steam.
Concern for possible rust formation in the Plenum... is another matter.
But, as mentioned, it did not reared it's head for me after 5 yrs of H2O/Meth injection??
RJ
Any hydrocarbon-fueled IC engine produces water vapor as a byproduct of the chemical reaction we call combustion.
Cylinder temperature is high enough to keep water in it's vapor phase, and the residual oil film anchored in the cylinders' cross-hatching prevents possible oxidation from engine-cooling associated condensation.
Rust forming inside the bare cast-iron plenum and intake ports should be a concern, though anecdotally your SOP is working fine in that regard.
Water's chemical purity is a factor, since "clean" water will obviously corrode less aggressively than hard water or salt water.
08-10-2009, 01:23 PM
#154
Administrator
Just to revisit potential for rust in Plenum and on Pistons for a minute.....
I know better than argue with you (or John P) on issues ... bowing to superior experience and knowledge. But I would make two points....
1- When I had to replace my head at 160,000 miles, due to Firerings 'letting go', I found NO rust in plenum or on piston crowns.
I don't use rust inhibitors with my 5 yr old Snows Kit. I just have a 5 min rule.
Run it down the road, if I can, or idle it, for 5 min before shutting it down, after last use of H2O/Meth injection.
2- My real conundrum stems from a fact I learned long ago... from Catipillar research done in the 50's and 60's.
CAT found the average diesel engine produces 1 gallon of water for every gallon of fuel burned.
The water comes from condesation; from heating and cooling of intake air in the cylinder.
This H2O was the main cause of sulfuric acid formation when high sulfur diesel fuel was in use (It takes H2O and sulfur to produce H2SO4).
If this fact still applies, why has rust not been a problem in the past? One answer might be because cylinder temps are well above boiling point of H2O, and all the moisture goes out the exhaust as steam.
Concern for possible rust formation in the Plenum... is another matter.
But, as mentioned, it did not reared it's head for me after 5 yrs of H2O/Meth injection??
RJ
I know better than argue with you (or John P) on issues ... bowing to superior experience and knowledge. But I would make two points....
1- When I had to replace my head at 160,000 miles, due to Firerings 'letting go', I found NO rust in plenum or on piston crowns.
I don't use rust inhibitors with my 5 yr old Snows Kit. I just have a 5 min rule.
Run it down the road, if I can, or idle it, for 5 min before shutting it down, after last use of H2O/Meth injection.
2- My real conundrum stems from a fact I learned long ago... from Catipillar research done in the 50's and 60's.
CAT found the average diesel engine produces 1 gallon of water for every gallon of fuel burned.
The water comes from condesation; from heating and cooling of intake air in the cylinder.
This H2O was the main cause of sulfuric acid formation when high sulfur diesel fuel was in use (It takes H2O and sulfur to produce H2SO4).
If this fact still applies, why has rust not been a problem in the past? One answer might be because cylinder temps are well above boiling point of H2O, and all the moisture goes out the exhaust as steam.
Concern for possible rust formation in the Plenum... is another matter.
But, as mentioned, it did not reared it's head for me after 5 yrs of H2O/Meth injection??
RJ
RowJ:
You are not giving yourself enough credit buddy!
I have always respected and welcomed your opinions in all the threads we have discussed together and I know there has been ALOT of them. Row, you offer good insight and opinions and that is what makes DTR a great place.I am glad you have had good luck with the rust situation on your truck. I wish I had not found any in mine, but unfortunately I did.
IMHO,...your practice of letting the engine run for sufficient time has probably helped that situation. Let me also say that I know friends that have done teardowns of their engines with WI and they also have not had the rust problem. But on the other hand, I have others that have seen it like I did. So, each Member will have to decide if they want to go with WI, and if so, whether or not they will use the additives we have discussed. With one exception, this has been a very good thread and discussion on water injection for our Members. My thanks to you and everyone else that has contributed here.
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John_P
08-10-2009, 03:41 PM
#155
Registered User
Thought I remembered past threads from John P about rust on rings or cylinder walls?? Maybe not.
And I do use distilled H2O. Maybe that's the difference.
RJ
08-10-2009, 06:42 PM
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Let me just say that with what I have spent on this truck and the amount of fuel I'm now feeding it, $100 dollars in oil is very little to pay. The oil gets changed every 6 months whether it needs it or not. Truck is now just a play toy.
Enjoy your vacation sponsored by John P!
08-10-2009, 07:12 PM
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RowJ:
You are not giving yourself enough credit buddy! I have always respected and welcomed your opinions in all the threads we have discussed together and I know there has been ALOT of them. Row, you offer good insight and opinions and that is what makes DTR a great place.
I am glad you have had good luck with the rust situation on your truck. I wish I had not found any in mine, but unfortunately I did. IMHO,...your practice of letting the engine run for sufficient time has probably helped that situation. Let me also say that I know friends that have done teardowns of their engines with WI and they also have not had the rust problem. But on the other hand, I have others that have seen it like I did. So, each Member will have to decide if they want to go with WI, and if so, whether or not they will use the additives we have discussed.
--------
John_P
RowJ:
You are not giving yourself enough credit buddy!
I have always respected and welcomed your opinions in all the threads we have discussed together and I know there has been ALOT of them. Row, you offer good insight and opinions and that is what makes DTR a great place.I am glad you have had good luck with the rust situation on your truck. I wish I had not found any in mine, but unfortunately I did.
IMHO,...your practice of letting the engine run for sufficient time has probably helped that situation. Let me also say that I know friends that have done teardowns of their engines with WI and they also have not had the rust problem. But on the other hand, I have others that have seen it like I did. So, each Member will have to decide if they want to go with WI, and if so, whether or not they will use the additives we have discussed.
With one exception, this has been a very good thread and discussion on water injection for our Members. My thanks to you and everyone else that has contributed here.
John_P
08-10-2009, 07:17 PM
#158
Administrator
I thought about multiple ways to respond to this post, but I don't want to get banned myself.
Let me just say that with what I have spent on this truck and the amount of fuel I'm now feeding it, $100 dollars in oil is very little to pay. The oil gets changed every 6 months whether it needs it or not. Truck is now just a play toy.
Enjoy your vacation sponsored by John P!
Let me just say that with what I have spent on this truck and the amount of fuel I'm now feeding it, $100 dollars in oil is very little to pay. The oil gets changed every 6 months whether it needs it or not. Truck is now just a play toy.
Enjoy your vacation sponsored by John P!
Good post Green04HO!
Yeah, I agree, there was plenty more I wanted to "respond to" also! I want to thank all of you for your patience with that guy.
FWIW,......I change my oil pretty frequently when using alot of water just because I can!
Like you said, compared to what our engines cost, IMO, oil is a very small expense. And one more thing,.....when Ace can go as fast as I can on the track, I might listen to more of what he has to say. No offense Ace,.....just fact!
08-10-2009, 07:18 PM
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08-10-2009, 08:02 PM
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I realize that I have absolutely no clue 
, but while messing around with my Cooling Mist setup over the weekend I have found that starting the pumps up 100* before I open the solenoid for that pump seems to work a little bit better. Not that it didn't work well before, but now it seems that it takes a little more time before it hits the second stage. I'm guessing this is because the pumps are up to full pressure before the solenoids open.
First pump is programmed to turn on at 900* and solenoid opens at 1000*
Second pump turns on at 1100* and solenoid opens at 1200*
, but while messing around with my Cooling Mist setup over the weekend I have found that starting the pumps up 100* before I open the solenoid for that pump seems to work a little bit better. Not that it didn't work well before, but now it seems that it takes a little more time before it hits the second stage. I'm guessing this is because the pumps are up to full pressure before the solenoids open.First pump is programmed to turn on at 900* and solenoid opens at 1000*
Second pump turns on at 1100* and solenoid opens at 1200*
08-11-2009, 01:56 AM
#161
Registered User
So is "ACE" on a permanent vacation from DTR? Or just a little while to cool off?
He is a smart guy and has alot to offer here if he could just turn down that negative side of his personality a little.
..
08-11-2009, 04:28 AM
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08-11-2009, 06:44 AM
#163
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sounds like a winning setup there Angelo, once you hit those pump turn on temps you are usually on the way to the level the the solenoids come on soon so you got it covered. Have you had them come on yet when you could tell you were putting the fire out? early tuning on my truck I had it happen once while on an easy roll into it and had the system triggers too low.
08-11-2009, 03:32 PM
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sounds like a winning setup there Angelo, once you hit those pump turn on temps you are usually on the way to the level the the solenoids come on soon so you got it covered. Have you had them come on yet when you could tell you were putting the fire out? early tuning on my truck I had it happen once while on an easy roll into it and had the system triggers too low.
08-11-2009, 06:39 PM
#165
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