Stalled and will not restart.
#1
Stalled and will not restart.
Hello all
Is my Injection pump bad?
2000 Dodge 2500 crew cab, 8 foot bed, 2 wheel drive, auto trans.
Started up fine, drove 10 miles, left running at 7-11 drove 1/4 mile to gas station, while pulling up to the pump started to die like was running out of
diesel fuel and then just quit. Tried to restart but just cranks. Fuel gauge 1/4 tank. added 10 gal cycled key (short crank to start lift pump) pump runs
then times out still no start. cycled key and checked for fuel at input to filter (Schrader valve) have fuel. loosened large return banjo fitting (not the input from fuel filter)
on the injector pump, cycled key and have dribble of fuel.
Note: I have a low pressure sender installed from Pure Diesel Power on the input banjo to the injector pump and the light did not go on during the time it was stalling out.
Tow back to shop.
Removed line from lift pump to filter and cycled key. Got over a quart from pump during lift pump cycle. Installed pressure gauge and retested have around 18 PSI.
Took cover off filter and removed filter. Fuel was in canister and filter was clean. No sediment in bottom of canister. Installed new filter and gasket.
Removed inlet banjo fitting at injector pump and retested for fuel volume and is same as inlet to filter from lift pump.
Reconnected all fittings and cycled key to prime system.
Loosened cyl 1, 3, and 4 fittings where they go into head and when cranking engine only get dribble of fuel.
While cranking tach is working.
Removed rubber hose from turbo crossover pipe to inlet of intake manifold and added very very short burst of starting fluid.
Cranked engine and wants to start.
Checked for trouble codes and have only one for converter lock up solenoid but at no time was there a check engine light on.
Is there anything else I should check in the way of electrical on the injector pump or else ware?
Truck is all stock.
If so please let me know.
Note: the injector pump and lift pump was replaced by a Chrysler dealer in 2010 with 124.111 miles on the truck. My latest problem happened now in 2019 with 148.646 miles on the clock.
Thanks in advance
Arron
Is my Injection pump bad?
2000 Dodge 2500 crew cab, 8 foot bed, 2 wheel drive, auto trans.
Started up fine, drove 10 miles, left running at 7-11 drove 1/4 mile to gas station, while pulling up to the pump started to die like was running out of
diesel fuel and then just quit. Tried to restart but just cranks. Fuel gauge 1/4 tank. added 10 gal cycled key (short crank to start lift pump) pump runs
then times out still no start. cycled key and checked for fuel at input to filter (Schrader valve) have fuel. loosened large return banjo fitting (not the input from fuel filter)
on the injector pump, cycled key and have dribble of fuel.
Note: I have a low pressure sender installed from Pure Diesel Power on the input banjo to the injector pump and the light did not go on during the time it was stalling out.
Tow back to shop.
Removed line from lift pump to filter and cycled key. Got over a quart from pump during lift pump cycle. Installed pressure gauge and retested have around 18 PSI.
Took cover off filter and removed filter. Fuel was in canister and filter was clean. No sediment in bottom of canister. Installed new filter and gasket.
Removed inlet banjo fitting at injector pump and retested for fuel volume and is same as inlet to filter from lift pump.
Reconnected all fittings and cycled key to prime system.
Loosened cyl 1, 3, and 4 fittings where they go into head and when cranking engine only get dribble of fuel.
While cranking tach is working.
Removed rubber hose from turbo crossover pipe to inlet of intake manifold and added very very short burst of starting fluid.
Cranked engine and wants to start.
Checked for trouble codes and have only one for converter lock up solenoid but at no time was there a check engine light on.
Is there anything else I should check in the way of electrical on the injector pump or else ware?
Truck is all stock.
If so please let me know.
Note: the injector pump and lift pump was replaced by a Chrysler dealer in 2010 with 124.111 miles on the truck. My latest problem happened now in 2019 with 148.646 miles on the clock.
Thanks in advance
Arron
Last edited by Arron Tate; 01-20-2019 at 07:28 AM. Reason: spelling and added vehicle info
#2
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Sure would be nice if you told everybody what specific vehicle you have,
Most of us have our vehicle information in our signature line, so that if we have an issue, other members not familiar with our rides, don't have to constantly ask " what year, trans, option, mods? " questions.
Most of us have our vehicle information in our signature line, so that if we have an issue, other members not familiar with our rides, don't have to constantly ask " what year, trans, option, mods? " questions.
#3
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Bump...
Can any of you fine fellas help thia gentleman? Sounds as though he,has a fuel delivery issue, and I have no experience with the newer than 1993 engine injection systems.
Hey Aaron,
Are you in a cold climate? Lots of fuel issues with gelling from this artic blast were in.
Can any of you fine fellas help thia gentleman? Sounds as though he,has a fuel delivery issue, and I have no experience with the newer than 1993 engine injection systems.
Hey Aaron,
Are you in a cold climate? Lots of fuel issues with gelling from this artic blast were in.
#4
Registered User
I think he should start by following the injection pump diagnosis as described eg: here.
Then he could try the "hotwiring" of the pump where the engine should at least idle.
But with the 3 lines open it will only dribble from those lines, and will not run usually. I ussually open 3 lines and crank for long enough that no more foam but clear diesel is present, then tighten the three and crank again- it still takes some time to even out because there still is some air in the 3 lines that were not opened.
Then he could try the "hotwiring" of the pump where the engine should at least idle.
But with the 3 lines open it will only dribble from those lines, and will not run usually. I ussually open 3 lines and crank for long enough that no more foam but clear diesel is present, then tighten the three and crank again- it still takes some time to even out because there still is some air in the 3 lines that were not opened.
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NJTman (01-21-2019)
#5
Stalled and will not restart
I think he should start by following the injection pump diagnosis as described eg: here.
Then he could try the "hotwiring" of the pump where the engine should at least idle.
But with the 3 lines open it will only dribble from those lines, and will not run usually. I usually open 3 lines and crank for long enough that no more foam but clear diesel is present, then tighten the three and crank again- it still takes some time to even out because there still is some air in the 3 lines that were not opened.
Then he could try the "hotwiring" of the pump where the engine should at least idle.
But with the 3 lines open it will only dribble from those lines, and will not run usually. I usually open 3 lines and crank for long enough that no more foam but clear diesel is present, then tighten the three and crank again- it still takes some time to even out because there still is some air in the 3 lines that were not opened.
Thanks for the reply.
Update,
Bumped key to crank so lift pump would run then time out.
I open three lines (Cyl 1, 3, and 4) and cranked over the engine for 45sec.
Small (almost most existent) trace of fuel (no foam) at valve cover / head at all loosed lines.
Let sit for 5min.
Bumped key to crank so lift pump would run then time out.
Cranked over the engine for 45sec with lines open
Small (almost most existent) trace of fuel (no foam) at valve cover / head at all loosed lines.
Still no trouble code's or check engine light on.
What do you all suggest is the next step?
Thanks so much for your help.
Arron
Last edited by Arron Tate; 01-21-2019 at 11:12 AM. Reason: Formatting
#6
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I am not a mechanic. I have had a similar situation of crank but no start when a crankshaft (or camshaft) sensor went out. I did get a trouble code that indicated what was at fault, where I believe you said you have no codes. It doesn't seem like you actually ran out of fuel unless your gauge is reading wrong.
Alan
Alan
#7
Registered User
Almost no fuel is slightly subjective- how many turns did you open the injector lines?
Maybe you could do as before with the bump and crank, then immediately tighten the 3 lines and try to crank again- if you hear it stutter keep on cranking to a max of 45 seconds.
If not- either go through the diagnosis I posted in the link or, do the bluechip diesel "hotwiring" test:
Maybe you could do as before with the bump and crank, then immediately tighten the 3 lines and try to crank again- if you hear it stutter keep on cranking to a max of 45 seconds.
If not- either go through the diagnosis I posted in the link or, do the bluechip diesel "hotwiring" test:
No Fuel At Injectors
HOT WIRE TEST - THE "FOR SURE TEST" TO DETERMINE IF THE VP44 IS WHY THE ENGINE WON'T START
It is very rare, but possible, for a problem with the wiring harness or the CAN Bus wires to prevent the engine from starting, so if you want to be 100% sure it IS the Injection Pump causing the no start, follow the following directions exactly, to be sure of not damaging a possibly good pump. This test POSITIVELY eliminates the possibility of overlooking an electrical problem caused by other components that could affect the start or run function of the VP44, as long as you have verified fuel delivery to the Injection Pump. Remove the electrical plug at the back of the Injection Pump and hot wire the pins on the pump as follows. Get two wires long enough to reach from the battery to the VP44. Install an INSULATED ¼ inch female spade connector onto one end of each wire.Use a set of dykes and cut the flat part and one of the "curls" away from each spade connector to leave one "curl" , which will be about the right size to go over the pin on the pump. Connect one INSULATED connector to pin 7 on the pump, which is the pin on the BOTTOM row of the socket on the Injection Pump, closest to the engine, to preferably fused (10 amp is fine) positive battery power in the PDC (Fuse box under the hood), or directly to the positive battery terminal if you like to take risks!.Connect the other INSULATED connector to the pin directly above the previous connection, the top row of pins, the one closest to the engine, and attach the other end to battery ground. Now try to start the engine and if it doesn’t start, you absolutely positively 100% need an Injection Pump! If the engine starts this way but NOT with the big plug installed on the pump, you know there is something in the harness or CAN bus wiring to the ECM telling or causing the engine to not start. Call me for help if this is the case.IF YOU HAVE FUEL, POWER AND GROUND, PROVEN BY THE ABOVE TESTS AND STILL HAVE NO START AFTER TEST 3, YOU ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY NEED AN INJECTION PUMP!
If you want more proof, or really want to know WHY it won’t start, loosen all of the injector lines at the valve cover. Crank the engine for 30 seconds, and if fuel comes out of only one line, better than the others, this indicates a seized rotor, and the engine will never run again until you change the VP44, because only one cylinder is getting fuel. For the engine to start you need HIGH PRESSURE fuel, AND NOT AIR, to POP OFF at least three of the injectors. If you have only a feeble fuel flow from the open lines, you are looking at only Lift Pump pressure, and the engine will never start. To determine if it is or is not HIGH pressure, look for a puddle on the ground after 60 seconds of cranking. No puddle, no high pressure. If high pressure fuel doesn’t come out of the open lines when cranking, the solenoid pintle valve may be stuck, or the pistons may be stuck compressed in the rotor, due to fuel contamination or corrosion. Low pressure can also be caused by an electrical issue in the computer, where the computer doesn’t energize and close the fuel solenoid to make high pressure, so low fuel pressure going through the injector lines is WHY the engine won’t start. Any of these situations confirms that the engine will not start until you replace the VP44, as long as you have done the other tests above.
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#8
Stalled and will not restart
Update,
I turned the fittings on the injector lines around 1/4 to a 1/2 turn out when I was doing the test.
I read the test procedure on how to "Hot wire" the pump and will try that next.
I removed the bosch style connector on the pump and the female pins are clean and shiny as the day it was made.
Removed the fuel relay and swapped it with another relay. No change. All connectors in the fuse box look showroom new.
Note: this truck was a Florida truck the was kept in a garage its whole life. No rust or corrosion at all.
I am in process to make up a set of insulated female Test Pins to go over the male pins (7 and 8) in the Injector pump to do the "Hot wire test". I plan on using a inline blade style fuse as recommended with a toggle switch to control it..
Question,
When i supply the pump with 12 Vdc should first try to prime the system by loosing the 3 injector lines and cranking Or just try to start the engine.
I am guessing that to shut off the engine if it starts then I would remove the 12Vdc to pins 7 and 8?
Is this what Pin 5 would normally do?
Thanks in advance.
Arron
#9
Registered User
The hotwiring lets the engine run without the truck's "brain", so things that can keep you from starting like some anti-theft system or the like will not play any role.
You should do a prime first and see if you get more fuel than before, then try to start. If you have a little air it may take a long time to actually start, but it should be obvious that it "wants to" pretty quickly. It will not do more than idle, remember even the accelerator pedal is disconnected during that test.
Yes to shut off you remove the 12V plus and the engine stops.
You should do a prime first and see if you get more fuel than before, then try to start. If you have a little air it may take a long time to actually start, but it should be obvious that it "wants to" pretty quickly. It will not do more than idle, remember even the accelerator pedal is disconnected during that test.
Yes to shut off you remove the 12V plus and the engine stops.
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nothingbutdarts (01-22-2019)
#10
Hello All,
After all was said and done it was the sending unit in the tank.
Tank was empty but gauge showed 1/4.
Advice for other people with fuel issues.
1) Confirm if there is fuel in tank.
2) Confirm if lift pump runs AND is pumping fuel. Mine was running and gauge was reading 18 PSI but was pumping air do to no fuel in tank.
3) Short cut to "hot Wire" VP44. NOTE: when I connected the hot wire to pump I could here solenoid in pump click. Lot of time wasted on other endless dead ends.If wants to start wile hot wired reconnect the computer and let it do its job.
4) When purging at injectors keep cranking with lines open (45 sec) at a time. Took four try's to prime.
5) Do your own research and plenty of it. Most of what I finally used to was from other sources.
6) Reach out to one of the rebuild pump people , They will most likely help you out over the phone to correctly diagnose the problem.
One good person was https://www.bluechipdiesel.com helped me on how to test before selling me a pump I did not need.
Hope this helps,
Arron
After all was said and done it was the sending unit in the tank.
Tank was empty but gauge showed 1/4.
Advice for other people with fuel issues.
1) Confirm if there is fuel in tank.
2) Confirm if lift pump runs AND is pumping fuel. Mine was running and gauge was reading 18 PSI but was pumping air do to no fuel in tank.
3) Short cut to "hot Wire" VP44. NOTE: when I connected the hot wire to pump I could here solenoid in pump click. Lot of time wasted on other endless dead ends.If wants to start wile hot wired reconnect the computer and let it do its job.
4) When purging at injectors keep cranking with lines open (45 sec) at a time. Took four try's to prime.
5) Do your own research and plenty of it. Most of what I finally used to was from other sources.
6) Reach out to one of the rebuild pump people , They will most likely help you out over the phone to correctly diagnose the problem.
One good person was https://www.bluechipdiesel.com helped me on how to test before selling me a pump I did not need.
Hope this helps,
Arron
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Boy I am glad that I read this post. My 1999 2500 would not start. the fuel gauge showed 3/4 tank and the log showed a 150 miles since fill up . I checked the tank and only found a trace of fuel in the bottom. I had not driven the truck in a couple of months because the a/c went out.. We had a guy that stole all of our gas cans now I know why.
#13
My experience so far
Been having fuel problems with my '99 5.9 cummins. I've read several related and helpful threads on this forum and wanted to put my experience out there In anticipation of getting mine fixed and in hopes of helping someone else.
This truck was my dads and it had been parked for at the better part of 7 years. I had cranked it up to move around the yard a few times and remember that starting could be touchy unless you turned it on, let the LP run and then started.
I recently decided to put the truck back on the road and after a new set of tires, front end parts, fuel filter, batteries, etc., etc, attempted to make the first trip longer than 10 miles. At about mile 15, truck just died. I knew the LP was not running (making any noise) but my buddy said it ran out of fuel (was still showing 1/4 tank) so put 5 gallons in it with no luck. Cant remember if we bled at the injectors. Towed it home.
A few days later I went out to mess with it and the pump seemed to be coming on again. After bleeding at the injectors , got it started and drove 8 miles to the station and filled it up to 3/4 tank and convinced my self that it had just been out of fuel. Drove it around for a week on a few very short trips maybe 5 or 10 miles at a time with no obvious problems.
This week I drove it 12 miles to the store. I noticed the tach bobble a little and parked it real quick, went in got my stuff and came back out. Wouldnt start. Couldn't hear the LP running. Changed LP in the parking lot, got it running and drove back home. It seemed a little funny when I pulled in the drive. I parked, shut it off and tried to crank it right back. no luck. I read some posts on here about the LP power being supplied directly from the ECM.
Yesterday went out, hooked up an LED across the LP power leads and ran inside the cab so I could see exactly when voltage was being applied to the LP as I drove down the road. Bled it at the injectors cranked and went for a test drive. Made about 12-15 miles and the light (pump) was pretty much on steady but randomly would flash real quick several times in a row. It seemed like the light (LP) was on steady enough that the fuel pressure shouldn't be an issue. In the last mile back to the driveway, I showered down on it a few times. Turned into the driveway, coasting down the hill, and it dies.
I let it "cool off" and then tried to get it cranked for another hour until dark. Tried to bleed it all the way to the injectors, never could get fuel up there. Closed off the injectors and spun it several more times, eventually got where it would hit but not nearly enough to start it. The LED still indicates steady voltage of 12v to the pump during this time.
Went out to mess with it today. No change at first. It still hits a little bit, but never remotely enough to crank. Never can get fuel up to the injectors. I have bled fuel from all Banjo fitting right up to the IP. I'm staring to think my IP is bad. Decided I needed to be able to read the fuel pressure on the filter housing. Checked both brass plugs for fuel pressure with the LP running to see if one would be better than the other for a gauge port. When I opened the one nearest the driver side, there was as air pocket that took a full second of the LP running to purge. Once it purged I put the plug back in and the LP clearly sounded I like it was actually under load. I was able to get fuel to the Injectors, which I bleed, and cranked it up. The air pocket in that specific plug was surprising especially since I had bled all the banjo fittings right up to the IP and had fuel there.
Any way, my next move is to hook a fuel pressure gauge on the filter to see exactly what is going on. I have a suspicion that that pesky transistor in the ECM is putting 12v to the LP but not enough current which I think could explain low fuel pressure with a new LP. If that turns out to be the case, I'll hook a relay direct to the LP next.
This truck was my dads and it had been parked for at the better part of 7 years. I had cranked it up to move around the yard a few times and remember that starting could be touchy unless you turned it on, let the LP run and then started.
I recently decided to put the truck back on the road and after a new set of tires, front end parts, fuel filter, batteries, etc., etc, attempted to make the first trip longer than 10 miles. At about mile 15, truck just died. I knew the LP was not running (making any noise) but my buddy said it ran out of fuel (was still showing 1/4 tank) so put 5 gallons in it with no luck. Cant remember if we bled at the injectors. Towed it home.
A few days later I went out to mess with it and the pump seemed to be coming on again. After bleeding at the injectors , got it started and drove 8 miles to the station and filled it up to 3/4 tank and convinced my self that it had just been out of fuel. Drove it around for a week on a few very short trips maybe 5 or 10 miles at a time with no obvious problems.
This week I drove it 12 miles to the store. I noticed the tach bobble a little and parked it real quick, went in got my stuff and came back out. Wouldnt start. Couldn't hear the LP running. Changed LP in the parking lot, got it running and drove back home. It seemed a little funny when I pulled in the drive. I parked, shut it off and tried to crank it right back. no luck. I read some posts on here about the LP power being supplied directly from the ECM.
Yesterday went out, hooked up an LED across the LP power leads and ran inside the cab so I could see exactly when voltage was being applied to the LP as I drove down the road. Bled it at the injectors cranked and went for a test drive. Made about 12-15 miles and the light (pump) was pretty much on steady but randomly would flash real quick several times in a row. It seemed like the light (LP) was on steady enough that the fuel pressure shouldn't be an issue. In the last mile back to the driveway, I showered down on it a few times. Turned into the driveway, coasting down the hill, and it dies.
I let it "cool off" and then tried to get it cranked for another hour until dark. Tried to bleed it all the way to the injectors, never could get fuel up there. Closed off the injectors and spun it several more times, eventually got where it would hit but not nearly enough to start it. The LED still indicates steady voltage of 12v to the pump during this time.
Went out to mess with it today. No change at first. It still hits a little bit, but never remotely enough to crank. Never can get fuel up to the injectors. I have bled fuel from all Banjo fitting right up to the IP. I'm staring to think my IP is bad. Decided I needed to be able to read the fuel pressure on the filter housing. Checked both brass plugs for fuel pressure with the LP running to see if one would be better than the other for a gauge port. When I opened the one nearest the driver side, there was as air pocket that took a full second of the LP running to purge. Once it purged I put the plug back in and the LP clearly sounded I like it was actually under load. I was able to get fuel to the Injectors, which I bleed, and cranked it up. The air pocket in that specific plug was surprising especially since I had bled all the banjo fittings right up to the IP and had fuel there.
Any way, my next move is to hook a fuel pressure gauge on the filter to see exactly what is going on. I have a suspicion that that pesky transistor in the ECM is putting 12v to the LP but not enough current which I think could explain low fuel pressure with a new LP. If that turns out to be the case, I'll hook a relay direct to the LP next.
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