Humblecowboy

99 Dodge 3500 dually w/24 valve Cummins Auto trans (all Stock)
I looked through my Chiltons manual and didn't find a reference to any FSS for the Stage Two 99 Cummins. Do the 24 valve Stage Two engines not have an FSS? My engine stopped dead leaving work yesterday and I haven't been able to pin point the cause. I'm not sure if the lift pump could be the issue because when I opened the ports on top of the filter then cranked it over there was no flow. The fuel was not at the top of the filters either. The pump was sounding eratic at times (making odd sounds when you first turn on the key and after cranking is stopped). I topped the canister off and cranked it and then it started to pump with good pressure Well it shot up over the fire wall anyway. (I didn't keep cranking of course). I closed it and cranked it over several times but never got it to fire off so I don't know if the pump is working sporaticly or not. I have been having the "no bus" issue with the instrument cluster and islotated it to the cluster itself. I can bump up on the dash under the shift lever several times and it fixes. I am wondering if that electrical issue could have caused the engine to drop dead. The truck was running fine up until then. Changed the filter a few months back. I added 3 gallons of fuel just in case my gauge was lying to me but I'm sure it wasn't since I filled it just a week ago and it takes me over a month to burn a tank full since I live close to work.
I got referred to a guy several miles from here who is real experienced with the diesles and he is supposed to be real honest and reasonable. If it's the lift pump he will change it for $450. If it's the FSS that is $250. The most expensive would be the injector pump at $1900. I don't know the going rate so I'm in the dark. These prices include the labor. Any ideas? Thanks for any help in advance, Frank
P.S. One more dummy question: To check injector pump output, do you do it the old fashioned way by loosing one of the lines at injector or is there a bleed plug or valve? Thanks

rebal

if you have no fuel to the filter thats where you start ether your out of fuel (bad gauge /draw straw/cracked fuel line) or no power to the lp. the labor prices sound fair . and yes you can crack an injector line open to see if fuel comes out or bleed the system

Humblecowboy

Thanks for the reply rebal. I cracked the 1st, 3rd and 4th injector lines front to back and got a little fuel out of # 3 and 4. No one was here to turn it over so I could'nt watch how much but there is now so I'll do it again so I can watch it. I hear the pump run but at times it makes eratic noises, at least it did yesterday. Thanks again, Frank

Humblecowboy

I'm ready to just cry.
Had it taken in to a shop and they ran codes that pointed to bad LP. Changed that and then it coded bad VP. Changed that and it ran fine for them. I picked it up and drove it home. tried to start about 15 min later and it cranked way too many times. Let off the key, cranked again and after a few turns it started. Next morning I cranked once it and it fired right up. Mechanic sent flatbed to get it and it started for him when cold but after warm, it had trouble starting. He ran the codes on it and they pointed to pcm (If I recall him saying). He cleaned all the connections and the codes went away. He started it and it started fine but after letting it run a good while he killed it and it took longer to start than he was comfortable with. He changed the check valve and it started fine. He drove it about five miles and killed it. Waited a half hour and it started fine. Drove it the next day and did the same and all was fine. I picked it up and drove it home, about a 40 minute drive, and it ran fine, I killed it, waited about 15 minutes and tried to crank it, it just turned over several times, let off the key,cranked again and after 3 or 4 turns, it started. I'm totally baffled as to what the problem is. I was having an issue with the instrument panel gauges dropping out once in awhile but after bumping the dash under the panel behind the gear shift they would come back. I found threads here pertaining to that and figured out that that problem is in the main bus connector on the back of the cluster but didn't have time to pull it and clean it. The odometer was giving me the "no bus" display also. I didn't find any threads where that could cause the engine to stop dead or have trouble starting though. If anybody can make sense of this stuff I've posted I hope you might have a cure and an inexpensive one too. I've already dumped a bunch of bucks on this truck. Thank you in advance.

KATOOM

I'd love to help you out but just note that with you not having any gauges, most diagnostics are shooting in the dark.....with a good chance of knowing where the target is.

So first off, you must know one thing. Are you getting fuel? Is there fuel in the tank? Diesels will run as long as they are getting fuel.
Second, is the ECM sending the proper signal to the fuel pump? Thats tough to know unless you have a fuel pressure guage. And for that matter, you need to know what your fuel pressures are ALL the time. So maybe one item you can purchase (if not gauges) to find out the current FP is would be a test fuel pressure gauge. They're about $50 and come with a long enough of a hose to run in the cab through the drivers window while testing.
Third, is the VP functioning? The VP is extremely sensitive to poor fuel delivery and garbage OEM lift pumps are notorious for delivering erratic, low fuel pressure to the VP which eventually causes the VP to fail, either mechanically or electronically.

There are lots of other possibles and situations which could cause strange issues so post back what your codes are and what the truck is currently doing and I'm sure we can pin point what to exactly look for, then you can tell you mechanic.

Humblecowboy

Thanks for the reply Katoom. I agree that withoutr the proper test gear it's a shot in the dark. My mechanic told me he installed a "Airtex" lift pump when he replaced the vp. He believes that that is the problem with the fuel delivery since I have to crank a second time when the engine is at operating temp. He wants me to bring it back to him Monday and he is going to change the LP out for an oem. I don't know if he did a pressure check or not but I will ask. He did eliminate the codes he wass getting the last time it was there by cleaning all of the connections to the PCM. He has been very fair with me on this as he has not charged me anymore for having to bring it back. I went to him on word of mouth plus I have heard from other people that he is very honest and fair. I will post back with updates for future reference to others. That is if they can figure out what I posted LOL. Thank you again.

Humblecowboy

I just picked my truck up from the mechanic, drove it home and killed it. Waited 5 minutes and hit the start and she fired right off. He took the Airtex off and put an OEM pump on and that fixed the hard start hot issue. He put the Airtex on because his VP supplier required it to warrant the VP. He has been very patient, fair and honest with me on this job and I think I have found a permanent mechanic. That is if he doesn't say "Don't EVER bring that thing back to me!" LOL You guys have been a great help on here and I for sure will be adding a FP gauge to this truck. If I had hung around here more in the past, I may have been able to prevent losing the VP. Coming back home on the highway my fuel mileage even jumped back up to between 24 and 25. As soon as I get this bill paid down I also plan to put a higher pressure pump plus the delay relay in the truck to extend the life of the VP.
"I love my truck . . . again!"
KATOOM, since my mechanic did all the work I can't post any codes or other symtoms that could help others. My apologies.

KATOOM

No problem and glad you got it running. I'm not OK with the OEM fuel pump but just make sure you get a fuel pressure gauge on there ASAP.

Humblecowboy

Thanks KATOOM and the gauge is the first thing on the list. Only thing is, I don't know what pressure to expect from the OEM.

KATOOM

I sent you a PM.

irish power mad

My oem carter lp was doing 12 at idle and 10 psi driving down the road, never tried it at wot but I suppose I'm better off not knowing.Btw that little carter lasted to just short of 200k miles and was replaced at the same time as the vp, so in my opinion their not that bad.

KATOOM

To each is own. Sure there are people like you who skated the failure odds but there is also many variables too as to why a VP can last longer with less than optimal fuel pressure. Ambient heat, type of driving, number of shut down / start ups, etc. are some. So knowing the facts, I choose the high road. Example, there's a hot shot driver who had 1.8 million miles on the OEM VP. But then again hot shot drivers tend to drive many miles between shut downs.

Humblecowboy

Well, I'm down here in Humble, Texas and the past couple of months we peaked right at 100 deg. for highs. I also let my engine idle out after driving as I have learned that diesles like that, especially my tractor. My drive to work is 15m round trip (thus the low miles) so I guess those factors can shorten the life of the vp without enough cooling. In the winter I sit in the parking lot at work and wait for the engine to come up to temp then drop after the T-stat opens and brings the temp back down. I hate shutting down a hot engine because they tend to "super heat" afterwards with no water flow.

KATOOM

Maybe I can help explain what actually harms the VP. We've all clarified its heat and unfortunately the VP computer (FPCM) has lead free solder which deteriorates under high heat situations. With proper fuel pressure the VP will run between 100*-160*. 160* is the magic number when the VP fuel temp sensor will defuel the engine because of excessive fuel temps. So everything is fine while the engine is running and the fuel pump is pumping "proper" amounts of fuel. When the damage takes place is when the engine is shut off because then over the next 15-20 minutes the VP temp slowly equals the temp of the larger hotter 190*-210* engine and thats when the solder deteriorates. Over time the electrical connections in the computer become intermittent and eventually failure. Like shutting the truck off.

I know what you're thinking too. Lets figure a way to keep the VP cool during the time the engine is cooling off. Well so far I think every possible way has been tried to do whatever it takes to keep the VP cooler and even remove the FPCM from the VP. And so far nothing has helped or worked.

So in point, never shut the engine off and your VP will last forever.

NM outlaw

Thank you Katoom! Let me add one more little peice to this puzzle. I dont no any thing about electronics and I dont think the rebuilders are involved in that aspect of these pumps either, but iv'e been led to belive that it was resisters burning out with the heat, it's just what I heard from the people over there in Poland that repair these computers. I had no idia they used this V/P system in so many vehicals around the world all kinds of stuff. Anyway if you have to get a rebuilt pump make sure you get one with a brand new Boush updated computer not a repaired up dated one, trust me there out there and being sold by these jepo dealers, just becouse they say they have latest up grades doesn't mean they haven't been exposed to many many heat cycles. The difference on the service people saw out of the Carters was in a direct relationship with how clean the fuel was you happen to be running. Iv'e said it over and over it wasn't a bad design it's just the fuel coming throug the retail system is getting dirtier and dirtier!( NOBODY IS CLEANING THE TANKS )