TWX

Hey all,

I've got an '82 D350 crew cab that I'm planning on converting, and while I'm at it I'm going to make it look like a crew-cab clone of the Lil' Red Express to boot. Anyway, I saw a friend of a friend had put a generator head and controller on an old Ford moving truck that he had, where he used a chain drive with a custom gear on his crank to drive it, with the generator head mounted actually on top of the engine. I didn't like his particular arrangement as there was no way to drive his truck without turning the chain and the generator, but I do like the idea of being able to use a suitable truck as a generator in the event of a long term power outage, especially since it gets in excess of 110° here in the summer and it'd be nice to run the house air conditioner with it.

Anyone got any experience adding a generator head to the PTO on a transmission, and would the Cummins 6BT supply enough power for say, 100A for an air conditioner, a refrigerator, and some circuits for lights? I assume that I'd have to beef up the cooling system on the truck so that the engine stays cool enough while not physically moving and providing this kind of power- plus I'd have to figure out the fuel consumption rate and how long I'd be able to run this setup before being required to refuel.

Just to clarify, I am aware of concepts like Duty Cycle, and that if I want a 100% duty cycle generator head that I'll certainly have to spend more than for something designed to operate only a short time.

At least with the Lil Red Express style stacks in the stepsides I'd be venting my noise and exhaust up and away...

Any information on things like transmission choice, ways to control the engine speed to achieve that right AC Hz, and even particular recommended generator parts or other things would be much appreciated. This build is probably going to be several years in the making as I have to finish a car I'm restoring before I can tear the 318 out of the truck (plus the front suspension and everything else needed for the new engine), but I'd certainly like to start with information.

wannadiesel

Both the NV4500 and the Getrag have PTO ports. The engine can supply all the power you want. I'm not sure what to do about governing, under heavy loads the RPM is likely to sag with the governor in the VE. Maybe a VE off a genset could provide governor parts, but driving could be interesting with an engine that wants to be at 1800 RPM all the time.

00 PAU
Sent from my Paranoid Android HD2 using Tapatalk 2.

taterfarm

Would it work to add a speed sensor to the pto output shaft and wire it into the truck's speedo circuit on a selector switch just like dual tanks or dual pyro sensors, then just switch it to pto and set the cruise control on the corresponding speed for 60 hz?

How big is your AC unit, maybe 5-7 hp? Surely the cruise would be able to respond fast and smooth enough when the AC unit kicks in, its not that much load?

What is the options for ratios on the pto? I would think it be more fuel efficient to run the engine at a lower rpm especially where the load will be so small for the size of the engine?


Harbor freight and northern tool have some cheap pto and belt drive generator heads, there fun to look at and dream of ways to hook one up for backup power.

TWX

I hadn't even considered the cruise control method.

If it could handle it, I wouldn't object to being able to power the whole property off of the truck. That's three air conditioners (two on the house, might leave off the one on the workshop), a couple of refrigerator/freezers, a couple of hot water heaters (only one is for the bathrooms), a basement sewage pump, and a bunch of circuits. I could actually skip on the range as I have a propane grill that I would use in such circumstances, not that the range draws a whole lot.

I remember reading about old Powerwagons where one would place the truck on jackstands and put a belt pulley in place of a rear wheel to use the drivetrain as the prime mover. I figure that using a PTO is just safer for long-duration use.

taterfarm

100 amps at 120 volts is only 12kW which is just a tad over 16 hp, of course there needs to be a bit of extra hp for surge but its still a small amount compared to the rating of our engine.

The biggest issue I see is that its all AC and refrigerator compressors, I think they can be burned up quick if there is a voltage dip when one kicks on.

Whats your thoughts on mounting location for the generator anyways?

Another thought, depending on your location the power company in some places allows net metering for alternative energy like wind or solar. I would like to see what they say about an engine running waste veggie oil or woodgas, its still renewable. Depending on the cost of fuel and electric power it may work out to save money if you ran power into the grid to cancel out what you use. I think a small car engine set to run woodgas would be real good if they would allow net metering.

TWX

Okay, so I'll definitely have enough power to run my whole house, shop, and probably a couple of neighbors, depending on the generator head, the ability to control it, and the ability to cool it.

I probably won't seek some kind of rebate because I will only operate this when the grid is nonfunctional. Sometimes the sheer amount of air conditioning operating is enough to overload the grid. I've considered solar, but the price has been prohibitive so far. This at least seems like it'd be practical for me to spend my money on in that'd also be a vehicle, and would literally be parked, wheel-chocked, and then put into generator mode.

This idea came to me after seeing an ask-this-old-house type show, where someone with a well pump had a power outage for a week. The show installed a cheapo generator for them that was LOUD, far louder than a vehicle with proper exhaust muffling, and was really high pitched and screechy. It looks like from the power requirements, that a cheap gasoline inline 4 cylinder could provide what I need, but then there's permanently mounting it and not pissing off the wife, plus having to fuel it with gas cans instead of just keeping the truck full most of the time and driving to the station for more.

If I had municipal natural gas then I'd have considered something that uses that, like a fixed engine on a cradle, but without that I don't see a reason to make it so fixed.

JD730

TWX,
I would do some research on the PTO, Parker Chelsea might have some information that is useful. See what the continuous torque rating, engine rpm vs pto rpm, duty cycle rating, etc...

From those numbers you can decide what size generator you can run and whether or not it will be sufficient to power your house.

You may also want to consider borrowing a clamp on AC ammeter and measuring how much current you are drawing when all your desired electrical appliances are running.

Around here in New Jersey from personal experience it seems that 10 to 12kw @240 volts is the minimum to comfortably run a house and not have to turn 3/4 of the power panel off. A lot of people in my area have tractor PTO driven generators, ours has a 25kw continuous rating and will run the entire house and shop without thinking about what you can or can't run.

TWX

I'll have to look into that information. Obviously I don't expect a 1:1 relationship, and if anything I'd have to step it down to keep the engine running in an RPM range that it gets the best oomph for its fuel consumption at.

Otherwise, 250V 200A service (what my house has) is 50KW appears to use just under 70 horsepower, assuming maxed out. Worst case I could size for that and I probably could get away with half of that.

j_martin

Farmers buy and use tractor PTO driven generators all the time. They are usually on a small trailer, plug in at the pole, get driven by whatever utility tractor is handy, and power the whole farmstead, including all the milking machinery and refrigeration.

Shouldn't be too hard to dub in speed control with cruise control, and the voltage is regulated in the generator.

As I recall, they aren't all that expensive for what you get, either.

taterfarm

What about a front mount pto off the engine crank going through the radiator like a cement truck? If there isn't a need to drive around with the generator in back of the truck then it seems that something off the front could be done for much less money. good excuse to get a custom aluminum radiator and address any cooling concerns at the same time.

Use a standard size pto shaft on the front and be able to run all kinds of stuff off the front of the truck, maybe even hook up a snowblower.

gorms

FWIW, I just did a 25kw gen with full load transfer switch on a house with a 400A service, and we just did a load shed for the luxuries (hot tub!) and it handles it fine. Max load on a 25 is around 105A? I think, throw and amprobe on either hot leg of your service even with the a/c's running and you might get up to 60a in most cases.

Just my opinion, but it would easiest to aim the engine RPM around 1800, as it will pick up a surge load very quick. Also, usually 60 cycle (hz) gen's run at either 18--rpm or 3600rpm. Keeps it easier to regulate. Sounds like a good idea, never thought of trying it.

Glen_63

Really interested, I wouldn't mind mind having a pto driven generator for things like inverter welders and other assorted tools I carry occasionally .

KRB

Going with the tractor PTO idea, what about hydraulics?

Take the PS pump and run hoses to the front or rear with quick connects. Could that power a PTO genny? They power winches that way.

Jim Lane

It is a little more involved than simply spinning an alternator with your truck engine.

Both frequency and voltage are directly propionate to the RPM the rotor is turning, smaller units usually turn at either 1800 or 3600 RPM while larger units can be 1200. (determined by how many poles.)

You need to have a governor connected to the throttle to keep the rpm's constant, if not when the voltage droops so does the frequency, the governor should keep it between 57 to 63 Hz any higher and the voltage will creep up around 140 volts and things will start burning out on you.

Induction motors (blower motors, sump pumps, well pumps) that rely on the 60hz line frequency to synchronize will now try to turn faster and overheat if the RPM's are not correct.

I have and work on Onan CCK gensets used in RV's as well as I used to own a Mep-003a Military Genset powered by a 4-cylinder air cooled diesel engine, producing 10kw both single AND 3-phase power, weighing almost 1300 pounds.

There are 2 ways I can think of to approach this problem.
With the generator head directly connected to the transmission through the PTO shaft, choose the final drive to be close to the needed output RPM, install a Woodward Governor on the front of the engine connected using a belt, have a quick connect ball and socket connecting the governor arm to the VE throttle shaft.

In generator mode you would need to connect the governor to the VE, when you start the engine the governor would keep the engine at 1800 RPM rock solid, you would need to disconnect the governor to drive the truck.

Or mount the generator underneath the bed or in the bed and connect it to the PTO shaft using a hydraulic pump, this would in turn spin the remote generator hydraulically that I would then have pass through an over sized fan assisted oil cooler before it returns to the pump, with this way you can throttle the driven motor at a different speed than the drive pump.
This would be my ideal setup.

Cummins/ Onan Hydraulic Generators

http://www.cumminsonan.com/cm/products/hydraulic

http://www.cumminsonan.com/www/html/...ets/a-1495.pdf

http://www.genscoequip.com/products/Generators


You can get PTO parts from Chelsea and also most all truck wrecking yards, but you would probably have to buy the specific PTO gear for your transmission .

http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PA...ry=productline

Fire trucks use a similar setup.

Or you could build a hybrid system and install a Leece Neville alternator like I have and have it power an 8 kw inverter and battery bank, now the frequency is constant and the truck engine only charges the batteries, my alternator can charge 160-amps continuously.

Or you could install a Vanner Dynamic Inverter,

http://www.vanner.com/markets/work-truck/

Jim

kiszka6911

On a Military CCUV M1031 K30 pickup they drove a bed mounted 12KW generator from a PTO monted shaft. Google M1031 PTO generator, you will find lots of pictures. A muncie PTO was used.