Bouncy dually fix - or how to center your dually wheels
04-09-2011, 12:33 AM
#62
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This is the second time I have read thru this post n I dont see how it is possible for the rims not to get centered? Since the rims are coined (have convex concave) ridges around the holes the hubs also have are machined with concaves in them so as you tighten every other lug (since the holes go every other one convex/concave) it will center them. Have had my d350 four 5 years now bout 6 sets of tires and never had a problem with a hop. The only thing you have to watch out for is to make sure that you get the duals matched up so the coined part of the rims matches up.
02-29-2012, 08:09 PM
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I just upgrade my dually to 19.5's, and once i got them on i notice it doesn't hop near as much. I had the front tires replaced a few months ago and it hopped really bad. i watched them put the wheels and tires back on and they did not do it like you said. The 19.5's pretty much centered themselves. I just used my OEM lug nuts, seems to be doing fine. I use a 2.5-3ft breaker bar with no extension.
02-29-2012, 10:17 PM
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i had to cut them out some to make them fit. I was very careful and used an angle grinder, they are basically hub centric. I bored them out till they just slipped over the hub. I really hated to use the angle grinder, but money is tight and i got the wheels and tires cheaper than i could've gotten new tires for the 16's.
09-02-2015, 10:15 PM
#68
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollsCoal View Post
On my second Gen. I was told by Fred Goeske off Wheeladapter.com to do the same procedure when running his 2" spacer between the rear duals. The first wheel goes on and is centered by the hub. The adapter then goes on and is tightened.
Then the 2nd wheel goes on and the only way to center it, he says is to get a ford wheel which has a bigger center bore, and use his spacer with a machined lip. Or I can use my stock Dodge wheel, get a spacer with no lip, and center it using the method you describe with conical lug nuts. I was skeptical if this was a reliable method of centering, but hearing that this was the correct way to center them from the factory on a first gen makes me feel a little more confident.
Wannadiesel, do you see any problem with centering this way on a second gen with spacers?
Joe
Six years on, let me see if there's more life in this.
Executive summary: does centering with the "temp-fit conical-lug-nut method" really keep a dually-pair centered? (Just by face-to-face friction? Really?)
If so, what if I want to separate the faces with washers to keep newly-painted-wheels from sticking to each other?
Unabridged version:
Craigslist, cheapness and naivete led me to buy a mixed-bag 'set' of plain-old-steel dually rims with 'still good' tires mounted, off of what turned out to be Fordlike, vs my Dodge 3500. My intention was to prep/paint them at my leisure, and swap them out with my mostly-worn-out ugly-rusty-nicked-up 2nd-gen Dodge dually wheels/tires, so as not to take the dually out of service for the duration. At the time of purchase, I'd naively thought that all 8-bolt 16" rims were alike. And the seller could only scrounge up five, as it turned out, but I figured it wouldn't be a problem if I added my "NOS" Dodge spare to the batch, so I'd have a sixth, and I'll just run with the best of the ugly leftovers as my new spare.
After getting the six wheels/tires cleaned up and sandblasted, I noticed that, unlike my one Dodge rim, the five others all had what I have since learned is Ford's thing: a raised nub that keeps their wheels from being installed in "the wrong position...", like...on my Dodge. Otherwise, they looked the same. Perhaps in denial that anything else might not be quite the same, I proceeded to neatly remove all trace of those nubs so that only CSI-Honolulu could maybe tell. I kept my caliper in the case and didn't check anything else, 'cause I think I really didn't want to know.
But now that I've been getting even more intimate with this batch, as I labor through much masking & painting, some other differences have been impossible to miss, and they're making me a bit ill, and well before I am even ready to bolt these up.
Here's the rundown:
Good news: they're all 8 x 6.5" pattern.
Center-hole: Dodge is 121.Xmm, Fords are 124.Xmm. If my 2nd-gen Dodge was supposed to be hub-centric, as it appears by the tight fit of the OE stuff, well...with the Fordzillas I am creating, it's going to be sloppy by +/- 1.5mm. I assume that would be bouncy...right?
Lugs: Mine require 15/16" socket, and threaded portion of shank is 9/16"-ish. Thought someone said they were 5/8" - maybe not my generation. Anyway, nuts are stamped with "140 ft-lbs," so I will be stopping there.
Lug holes: My never-used spare Dodge lug-holes measure 77/128"; saving you the math, that's 3/128" smaller than 5/8" (so it's kind gotta be 9/16" studs, I take it). The Fords are way bigger, at 87/128", meaning 5/64" sloppy. So no great centering from them, either, though the conical nuts would at least partly overcome that.
Center plate thickness: Maybe not relevant to centering, but I couldn't help but notice the OEM Dodge is 8mm+ thick, vs the Fords, 6.7-ish.
I mentioned painting earlier: I really don't want to be squishing the protruding faces of the DRWs right up against each other, since not only would that ruin the new, soft, sticky finish, but it'd probably epoxy them together. Thus, I want to separate them with something like simple washers - something the diameter of the OE nuts, say. But now with the whole centering-thing in mind, do I really want another interface to slip under load? Isn't this a problem for aluminum dually owners? Is there a standard fix? (I don't need wheel "spacers" per se - just a little gap between the painted surfaces).
Now that I've written this, short of giving up on this swap entirely, my best fix would seem to be to find a way to re-create the center-hole spacing that was intended - but this would require... what? A ~1.5mm wide shim for each rim's center-hole? I can't imagine this being viable, but then again, it doesn't need to bear a load - just keep the wheel centered until it's bolted up. Is there such a thing? Maybe I should get a removable "centering sleeve" tool made up...and see if I've by then spent as much on all of this as a new set of Alcoa dually rims might have cost?...
aargh. It's never as simple as I think it's going to be, but if I started out by doing the needed research, I'd never get out of my chair.
--Dave
Originally Posted by RollsCoal View Post
On my second Gen. I was told by Fred Goeske off Wheeladapter.com to do the same procedure when running his 2" spacer between the rear duals. The first wheel goes on and is centered by the hub. The adapter then goes on and is tightened.
Then the 2nd wheel goes on and the only way to center it, he says is to get a ford wheel which has a bigger center bore, and use his spacer with a machined lip. Or I can use my stock Dodge wheel, get a spacer with no lip, and center it using the method you describe with conical lug nuts. I was skeptical if this was a reliable method of centering, but hearing that this was the correct way to center them from the factory on a first gen makes me feel a little more confident.
Wannadiesel, do you see any problem with centering this way on a second gen with spacers?
Joe
Six years on, let me see if there's more life in this.
Executive summary: does centering with the "temp-fit conical-lug-nut method" really keep a dually-pair centered? (Just by face-to-face friction? Really?)
If so, what if I want to separate the faces with washers to keep newly-painted-wheels from sticking to each other?
Unabridged version:
Craigslist, cheapness and naivete led me to buy a mixed-bag 'set' of plain-old-steel dually rims with 'still good' tires mounted, off of what turned out to be Fordlike, vs my Dodge 3500. My intention was to prep/paint them at my leisure, and swap them out with my mostly-worn-out ugly-rusty-nicked-up 2nd-gen Dodge dually wheels/tires, so as not to take the dually out of service for the duration. At the time of purchase, I'd naively thought that all 8-bolt 16" rims were alike. And the seller could only scrounge up five, as it turned out, but I figured it wouldn't be a problem if I added my "NOS" Dodge spare to the batch, so I'd have a sixth, and I'll just run with the best of the ugly leftovers as my new spare.
After getting the six wheels/tires cleaned up and sandblasted, I noticed that, unlike my one Dodge rim, the five others all had what I have since learned is Ford's thing: a raised nub that keeps their wheels from being installed in "the wrong position...", like...on my Dodge. Otherwise, they looked the same. Perhaps in denial that anything else might not be quite the same, I proceeded to neatly remove all trace of those nubs so that only CSI-Honolulu could maybe tell. I kept my caliper in the case and didn't check anything else, 'cause I think I really didn't want to know.
But now that I've been getting even more intimate with this batch, as I labor through much masking & painting, some other differences have been impossible to miss, and they're making me a bit ill, and well before I am even ready to bolt these up.
Here's the rundown:
Good news: they're all 8 x 6.5" pattern.
Center-hole: Dodge is 121.Xmm, Fords are 124.Xmm. If my 2nd-gen Dodge was supposed to be hub-centric, as it appears by the tight fit of the OE stuff, well...with the Fordzillas I am creating, it's going to be sloppy by +/- 1.5mm. I assume that would be bouncy...right?
Lugs: Mine require 15/16" socket, and threaded portion of shank is 9/16"-ish. Thought someone said they were 5/8" - maybe not my generation. Anyway, nuts are stamped with "140 ft-lbs," so I will be stopping there.
Lug holes: My never-used spare Dodge lug-holes measure 77/128"; saving you the math, that's 3/128" smaller than 5/8" (so it's kind gotta be 9/16" studs, I take it). The Fords are way bigger, at 87/128", meaning 5/64" sloppy. So no great centering from them, either, though the conical nuts would at least partly overcome that.
Center plate thickness: Maybe not relevant to centering, but I couldn't help but notice the OEM Dodge is 8mm+ thick, vs the Fords, 6.7-ish.
I mentioned painting earlier: I really don't want to be squishing the protruding faces of the DRWs right up against each other, since not only would that ruin the new, soft, sticky finish, but it'd probably epoxy them together. Thus, I want to separate them with something like simple washers - something the diameter of the OE nuts, say. But now with the whole centering-thing in mind, do I really want another interface to slip under load? Isn't this a problem for aluminum dually owners? Is there a standard fix? (I don't need wheel "spacers" per se - just a little gap between the painted surfaces).
Now that I've written this, short of giving up on this swap entirely, my best fix would seem to be to find a way to re-create the center-hole spacing that was intended - but this would require... what? A ~1.5mm wide shim for each rim's center-hole? I can't imagine this being viable, but then again, it doesn't need to bear a load - just keep the wheel centered until it's bolted up. Is there such a thing? Maybe I should get a removable "centering sleeve" tool made up...and see if I've by then spent as much on all of this as a new set of Alcoa dually rims might have cost?...
aargh. It's never as simple as I think it's going to be, but if I started out by doing the needed research, I'd never get out of my chair.
--Dave
09-03-2015, 06:57 AM
#69
Registered User
I haven't seen Wannadiesel post in years...
09-03-2015, 02:44 PM
#70
wanna's Last Activity: 04-23-2013 06:49 PM
09-03-2015, 06:49 PM
#71
Registered User
Like I said,he hasn't posted in years...
09-03-2015, 08:04 PM
#72
OK, thanks...though I'll accept replies from anyone...
Cheesy as it may sound, my current thinking is to make up some sheetmetal shimstock to temporarily fill the 1.5mm gap (about 15 gauge) between hub and Ford rims - then torque down the lug nuts.
That still leaves open the question of whether adding washer-spacers to the dually pairs (to keep painted surfaces separated) is an invitation to loosening and other untold miseries. I think so - recently-applied paint isn't a good bearing surface even for washer-sized 'bearings.'
Occurs to me now that what I need is a pile of double- and single-conical 9/16"-ish washers, if such a thing exists: use the doubles to 'concentrify' the duallys between faces, and the singles everywhere else, while still using my OEM swivel-washer-type lug nuts.
Now if only there were some kind of global index of information for oddball products like this...
Cheesy as it may sound, my current thinking is to make up some sheetmetal shimstock to temporarily fill the 1.5mm gap (about 15 gauge) between hub and Ford rims - then torque down the lug nuts.
That still leaves open the question of whether adding washer-spacers to the dually pairs (to keep painted surfaces separated) is an invitation to loosening and other untold miseries. I think so - recently-applied paint isn't a good bearing surface even for washer-sized 'bearings.'
Occurs to me now that what I need is a pile of double- and single-conical 9/16"-ish washers, if such a thing exists: use the doubles to 'concentrify' the duallys between faces, and the singles everywhere else, while still using my OEM swivel-washer-type lug nuts.
Now if only there were some kind of global index of information for oddball products like this...
Last edited by 'pants; 09-03-2015 at 08:04 PM. Reason: cranial imperfectitude
09-04-2015, 03:05 PM
#73
dually info from Mysteryman, - sorry this is all I got:
First Gen Dually wheels? - Page 2
wheels
You can use the 94 wheels on the first gen trucks. . The main difference is that the 94 has no coin. It is just flat around the lug holes. If your truck is dual wheel you must use pairs of the aftermarket wheels together. . . . In other words. . . . . . Do not use one stock wheel against one aftermarket wheel !!!!
Things you need to check on the aftermarket wheel before you buy.
1) the stud holes will need to be 5/8 ths. for 1 tons or 1/2" for 3/4 on
2) be sure that there is a large enough flat area around the lug hole for your
stock lug nuts to tighten down onto for 1 ton. . you will need new larger od lug nuts for 3/4 ton
3) be sure that your studs are going to be long enough to go threw the wheels
4) If the wheel you want uses cone/tapered lugs and your truck uses coin nuts
you will need to get new nuts. . Tell the parts counter man that you need nuts for an early 1970's 3/4 or 1 ton single wheel truck. The nuts are 5/8's 18 threads per inch with a 45 degree taper. Chevy used the lugs also but they had a 60 degree taper.
Kelsey Hayes still makes a special steel wheel for dual wheel trucks that will take the 235 x 85-16" tire. . . . (The stock wheels will only take up to 215)
If you need new wheels I would buy them and put stainless liners on them to make them look good. . .
I posted some tech info on hubs and wheels in the past. . . Take a look at those posts for more .
If you have any more questions on wheels and hubs PM me or send me your # and I will call you. . . .
First Gen Dually wheels? - Page 2
wheels
You can use the 94 wheels on the first gen trucks. . The main difference is that the 94 has no coin. It is just flat around the lug holes. If your truck is dual wheel you must use pairs of the aftermarket wheels together. . . . In other words. . . . . . Do not use one stock wheel against one aftermarket wheel !!!!
Things you need to check on the aftermarket wheel before you buy.
1) the stud holes will need to be 5/8 ths. for 1 tons or 1/2" for 3/4 on
2) be sure that there is a large enough flat area around the lug hole for your
stock lug nuts to tighten down onto for 1 ton. . you will need new larger od lug nuts for 3/4 ton
3) be sure that your studs are going to be long enough to go threw the wheels
4) If the wheel you want uses cone/tapered lugs and your truck uses coin nuts
you will need to get new nuts. . Tell the parts counter man that you need nuts for an early 1970's 3/4 or 1 ton single wheel truck. The nuts are 5/8's 18 threads per inch with a 45 degree taper. Chevy used the lugs also but they had a 60 degree taper.
Kelsey Hayes still makes a special steel wheel for dual wheel trucks that will take the 235 x 85-16" tire. . . . (The stock wheels will only take up to 215)
If you need new wheels I would buy them and put stainless liners on them to make them look good. . .
I posted some tech info on hubs and wheels in the past. . . Take a look at those posts for more .
If you have any more questions on wheels and hubs PM me or send me your # and I will call you. . . .
04-13-2017, 04:03 AM
#75
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Dually owners, does your truck vibrate or bounce while driving at highway speed and no tire shop seems to be able to balance your tires right? Well, the trouble is likely just plain silly Chrysler engineering. 
The wheels have to be manually centered on the hubs every time they are installed because they are neither hub-centric nor lug-centric. On a single wheel truck, the tapered lug nuts center the wheels. Our flanged nuts don't do a good job at that. And it's pretty obvious that the wheels don't fit the hubs tight enough to center that way.
So how do you get them centered?
OK, so here we go for you visual learners:
These are the lug nuts you need. As you can see these have been used a few times...
The next step is to find the right holes on the wheels. Every other hole is concave (or convex, depending on how you look at it).
You want to install the coned nuts over two opposing concave holes, like so:
Tighten the two tapered nuts to center the wheel. Then put 6 of the flanged nuts on the other studs and crank 'em down tight:
Last step is to remove the tapered nuts and install the leftover flanged nuts:
The procedure is the same on the rear wheels, just make sure that you align the slots on the wheels with the pin on the hub.
Get those lug nights TIGHT! Torque spec is 300-325 ft. lbs, so if you have a standard 1/2" impact wrench you are leaving them too loose. These trucks came with a 3 foot bar to remove and replace the lug nuts, don't be shy about cranking them down hard.
Your tire shop will learn to hate you now.
The wheels have to be manually centered on the hubs every time they are installed because they are neither hub-centric nor lug-centric. On a single wheel truck, the tapered lug nuts center the wheels. Our flanged nuts don't do a good job at that. And it's pretty obvious that the wheels don't fit the hubs tight enough to center that way.
So how do you get them centered?
OK, so here we go for you visual learners:
These are the lug nuts you need. As you can see these have been used a few times...
The next step is to find the right holes on the wheels. Every other hole is concave (or convex, depending on how you look at it).
You want to install the coned nuts over two opposing concave holes, like so:
Tighten the two tapered nuts to center the wheel. Then put 6 of the flanged nuts on the other studs and crank 'em down tight:
Last step is to remove the tapered nuts and install the leftover flanged nuts:
The procedure is the same on the rear wheels, just make sure that you align the slots on the wheels with the pin on the hub.
Get those lug nights TIGHT! Torque spec is 300-325 ft. lbs, so if you have a standard 1/2" impact wrench you are leaving them too loose. These trucks came with a 3 foot bar to remove and replace the lug nuts, don't be shy about cranking them down hard.
Your tire shop will learn to hate you now.