Bouncy dually fix - or how to center your dually wheels
08-04-2009, 05:12 PM
#31
Registered User
Yes i know these are 1st gen yall are talking about but 300-325ft lbs of torque on lug nuts i way overkill all that is achomplishing is streching and stressing the the studs. Do ypu realize that the torque spec that you gave is tighter than the specs for a 3406 cat head bolts.
Here are the torque specs straight from discounttiredirect.com for 1st gens only
D100/150/D200/250 1972-93 110 ft-lbs
D300/350 (1/2"stud) 1972-93 105 ft-lbs
D300/350 (5/8"stud) 1979-93 105 ft-lbs
w/ flanged 5/8"stud 1979-93 200 ft-lbs
Here are the torque specs straight from discounttiredirect.com for 1st gens only
D100/150/D200/250 1972-93 110 ft-lbs
D300/350 (1/2"stud) 1972-93 105 ft-lbs
D300/350 (5/8"stud) 1979-93 105 ft-lbs
w/ flanged 5/8"stud 1979-93 200 ft-lbs
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jimtmcdaniels (11-11-2019)
08-04-2009, 05:52 PM
#33
Registered User
my question is what do you use to break the lug nuts loose at 300- 35 ft lbs. ?
If i rember correct the specs for those head bolts was around 260-280ft. lbs i believe and i had to use a 3/4 breakover with a 5' cheater on it to break them loose.
If i rember correct the specs for those head bolts was around 260-280ft. lbs i believe and i had to use a 3/4 breakover with a 5' cheater on it to break them loose.
08-04-2009, 07:06 PM
#34
Adminstrator-ess
Thread Starter
Dodge included special wrench set with a 3 foot bar with the trucks. It works if you grunt a little. I've dropped my outer duals with it at a dyno event (because their impact wrench was too puny) and it's a lot of work.
Standard cheapo 1/2" impacts will not do the trick, most of them are rated for 230-250 ft/lbs. One place that did a state inspection on my truck could not get the wheels off with any impact they had. They had to go down the street to a truck shop and borrow their 1" rig to take my wheels off.
I use a knock-off of a 1/2" IR Thundergun (Harbor Freight "Earthquake" brand) to R&R mine. It's rated at 400 ft/lbs forward and 625 ft/lbs reverse.
I do not torque mine, I just zap them on with the impact and then go over them a second time.
Standard cheapo 1/2" impacts will not do the trick, most of them are rated for 230-250 ft/lbs. One place that did a state inspection on my truck could not get the wheels off with any impact they had. They had to go down the street to a truck shop and borrow their 1" rig to take my wheels off.
I use a knock-off of a 1/2" IR Thundergun (Harbor Freight "Earthquake" brand) to R&R mine. It's rated at 400 ft/lbs forward and 625 ft/lbs reverse.
I do not torque mine, I just zap them on with the impact and then go over them a second time.
08-04-2009, 08:16 PM
#35
Registered User
Can We Agree To Dis-agree On Methods ???
Right there is where me and the inspectors would have went round and round.
I have adamantly kept
air/impact guns AWAY from my truck(s) and especially away from the wheels/nuts; on my stuff, it's a manual hand-wrench or NO wrench.I see too often first-hand the costly damage that air-guns regularly do to wheel-studs.
Just today, we had a 4x4 3500 GMC to buy four new tires.
He had just came from having brakes done all around.
Needless to say, every nut on the truck was over-torqued and cross-threaded, requiring several to be cut off with a hammer and chisel.
What should have been a forty-minute job at most ended up taking the most of the day, and the poor guy still has to go somewhere and get all 32 studs/nuts completely replaced.
What happens with an air-gun is that once the nut goes on as far as physically possible and the stud has stretched beyond metalurgical limits, the impact hammers it a few thousandths more, pulling the threads inside the nut loose and sort of piling them up, then the next poor soul to come along tries to remove the nut, but the stripped threads won't allow the other threads to "climb" over them, thus the stud then strips and the nut just goes round and round, yet it hasn't backed off at all.
There is no quick and easy fix for this situation.
A torch will also ruin the wheel, especially if it is an aluminum wheel.
The only recourse is the hammer and sharp cold-chisel and lots of time.
By necessity of our work, we have some HUGE air-guns, two that require one-inch I.D. air-supply; these things can snap the axle on a Mack truck, but they are of absolutely no help on a siezed/stripped nut, they only make it go round and round quicker (of course, one might manage to melt them off).
With a hand-wrench, one can "feel" when enough is enough; an air-wrench lacks any feeling.
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jimtmcdaniels (11-11-2019)
08-04-2009, 08:24 PM
#36
Registered User
I agree with bearkiller a impact can cause more dahage than it can help.
I have another question for wannadiesel. You had to have your wheels taken off for a state inspection? Im not from up there but this interested me a lot as to why you would need to do that
I have another question for wannadiesel. You had to have your wheels taken off for a state inspection? Im not from up there but this interested me a lot as to why you would need to do that
08-05-2009, 08:24 AM
#37
I believe those Dodge torque specs are probably "dry." There's a big difference in the effective clamping force with torque applied between "dry" and "lubed" threads, with lubed threads being the finer grained or more accurately achieved value, depending again even further on the type of thread lube being used. That's one reason head studs are put in wet.
I think the OEM just assumes tire changes are going to be performed dry by the non-mechanical geniuses BK speaks of. So they just want to make sure wheels aren't subsequently falling off. They couldn't care less if studs get stretched, rotors warped, lugs impossibly frozen in place or anything else along those lines.
I've been putting the SRW nuts on the 1st gen Alcoa wheels at 120 wet for two years, no problem. That's a little less than the manufacturer spec, and they don't state dry or wet. It depends on the wheel. Steel wheels will take alot more before having problems. I put the 3rd Gen steelies on at 130 wet. Lugs never frozen or coming loose. Whatever works, just be aware of the variables and err on the side of keeping them screwed down and check them occasionaly, as well. I had a Torque Thrust II coming loose on my old Chrysler a few years ago. Upped the torque a little on it after that. Good thing I rotate them on a regular basis.
And OBTW I almost forgot, if you do lube the lug threads, make sure you lube the threads ONLY - not the cone faces. That's what seats the lug and prevents it from backing off, regardless of the torque applied.
I think the OEM just assumes tire changes are going to be performed dry by the non-mechanical geniuses BK speaks of. So they just want to make sure wheels aren't subsequently falling off. They couldn't care less if studs get stretched, rotors warped, lugs impossibly frozen in place or anything else along those lines.
I've been putting the SRW nuts on the 1st gen Alcoa wheels at 120 wet for two years, no problem. That's a little less than the manufacturer spec, and they don't state dry or wet. It depends on the wheel. Steel wheels will take alot more before having problems. I put the 3rd Gen steelies on at 130 wet. Lugs never frozen or coming loose. Whatever works, just be aware of the variables and err on the side of keeping them screwed down and check them occasionaly, as well. I had a Torque Thrust II coming loose on my old Chrysler a few years ago. Upped the torque a little on it after that. Good thing I rotate them on a regular basis.
And OBTW I almost forgot, if you do lube the lug threads, make sure you lube the threads ONLY - not the cone faces. That's what seats the lug and prevents it from backing off, regardless of the torque applied.
08-05-2009, 05:52 PM
#38
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Thread Starter
The price for inspection is set by the state and is too low to make a profit while doing a thorough job. Honest shops are always looking for stuff that needs to be done, and dishonest shops are selling work that does not need to be done and parts that do not need to be replaced to the unwary. It's a system that sucks. Your best hope is to find a shop that will check the lights, wipers, and horn and slap a sticker on it.
10-02-2009, 11:13 AM
#40
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The wheels have to be manually centered on the hubs every time they are installed because they are neither hub-centric nor lug-centric. On a single wheel truck, the tapered lug nuts center the wheels. Our flanged nuts don't do a good job at that. And it's pretty obvious that the wheels don't fit the hubs tight enough to center that way.
Then the 2nd wheel goes on and the only way to center it, he says is to get a ford wheel which has a bigger center bore, and use his spacer with a machined lip. Or I can use my stock Dodge wheel, get a spacer with no lip, and center it using the method you describe with conical lug nuts. I was skeptical if this was a reliable method of centering, but hearing that this was the correct way to center them from the factory on a first gen makes me feel a little more confident.
Wannadiesel, do you see any problem with centering this way on a second gen with spacers?
Joe
10-02-2009, 11:34 AM
#41
Registered User
Well I just realized my dana 80 drw has a short raised section right against the wheel face. So I gUess my axle is hub centric. BTW anyone run 3rd gen dually wheels?
10-02-2009, 11:42 AM
#42
Registered User
Dodge included special wrench set with a 3 foot bar with the trucks. It works if you grunt a little. I've dropped my outer duals with it at a dyno event (because their impact wrench was too puny) and it's a lot of work.
Standard cheapo 1/2" impacts will not do the trick, most of them are rated for 230-250 ft/lbs. One place that did a state inspection on my truck could not get the wheels off with any impact they had. They had to go down the street to a truck shop and borrow their 1" rig to take my wheels off.
I use a knock-off of a 1/2" IR Thundergun (Harbor Freight "Earthquake" brand) to R&R mine. It's rated at 400 ft/lbs forward and 625 ft/lbs reverse.
I do not torque mine, I just zap them on with the impact and then go over them a second time.
Standard cheapo 1/2" impacts will not do the trick, most of them are rated for 230-250 ft/lbs. One place that did a state inspection on my truck could not get the wheels off with any impact they had. They had to go down the street to a truck shop and borrow their 1" rig to take my wheels off.
I use a knock-off of a 1/2" IR Thundergun (Harbor Freight "Earthquake" brand) to R&R mine. It's rated at 400 ft/lbs forward and 625 ft/lbs reverse.
I do not torque mine, I just zap them on with the impact and then go over them a second time.
10-02-2009, 11:54 AM
#43
Registered User
Being in and around this shop ever since I was in diapers, it has been my own personal observation that, due to the near minimum-wage and zero chance of advancement offered, there are no (or very few) mechanical geniuses working in tire-shops.
Knowing that, I would highly recommend anyone needing tire work to leave the truck at home, taking only the wheels to the shop, thus minimizing the damages possible to the truck.
In all the years that I have been driving, NO ONE but me has ever messed with the tires on any of my vehicles, and I have NEVER had a cross-threaded stud or a wheel to come loose.
Another thing, and also due to the low wages and zero incentives, unless a problem is so bad as to be really obvious, very few tire-monkeys are going to "feel" for bearing condition or loose steering and suspension components, nor examine the condition of the brakes/rotors and such; and, most owners are not going to check all of this out at home later, so something that could have been addressed with maybe no expense at all is not noticed until expensive parts have failed.
Knowing that, I would highly recommend anyone needing tire work to leave the truck at home, taking only the wheels to the shop, thus minimizing the damages possible to the truck.
In all the years that I have been driving, NO ONE but me has ever messed with the tires on any of my vehicles, and I have NEVER had a cross-threaded stud or a wheel to come loose.
Another thing, and also due to the low wages and zero incentives, unless a problem is so bad as to be really obvious, very few tire-monkeys are going to "feel" for bearing condition or loose steering and suspension components, nor examine the condition of the brakes/rotors and such; and, most owners are not going to check all of this out at home later, so something that could have been addressed with maybe no expense at all is not noticed until expensive parts have failed.
10-02-2009, 06:11 PM
#44
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i think if your gonna get tires put on anything heavier than a 1/2 ton pickup, you should visit a Truck tire shop... the one i use here in town for 1. knows to torque my lugs to 350 lbs, and 2..does center my wheels correctly. never a bounce....they are actually the first people to tell me about our "special" trucks...although i think they used the term "P.I.T.A."
10-02-2009, 09:24 PM
#45
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Thread Starter
On my second Gen. I was told by Fred Goeske off Wheeladapter.com to do the same procedure when running his 2" spacer between the rear duals. The first wheel goes on and is centered by the hub. The adapter then goes on and is tightened.
Then the 2nd wheel goes on and the only way to center it, he says is to get a ford wheel which has a bigger center bore, and use his spacer with a machined lip. Or I can use my stock Dodge wheel, get a spacer with no lip, and center it using the method you describe with conical lug nuts. I was skeptical if this was a reliable method of centering, but hearing that this was the correct way to center them from the factory on a first gen makes me feel a little more confident.
Wannadiesel, do you see any problem with centering this way on a second gen with spacers?
Joe
Then the 2nd wheel goes on and the only way to center it, he says is to get a ford wheel which has a bigger center bore, and use his spacer with a machined lip. Or I can use my stock Dodge wheel, get a spacer with no lip, and center it using the method you describe with conical lug nuts. I was skeptical if this was a reliable method of centering, but hearing that this was the correct way to center them from the factory on a first gen makes me feel a little more confident.
Wannadiesel, do you see any problem with centering this way on a second gen with spacers?
Joe
