Bottom line on KDP
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From: Madeira Bch Florida
Bottom line on KDP
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illflem
BFleming - Moderator
Registered: May 2000
Location: Bitterroot Valley,Montana
Posts: 7263
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Take care of it before it's too late
Don't delay on containing your dowel pin, the damage that little sucker can cause to your 12 valve and 24 valve up to '99 is severe. To see the damage and why it costs so much to repair click this http://www.flex.net/~triplem/new/dowelpin.htm
What is a killer dowel pin? it is the Upper Timing Case Dowel Pin
In the back of the timing gear case, there is an assembly index pin pressed into a hole. Some holes do not fit tightly around the pin and the pin can vibrate out of the hole, then fall into the gear train. The pin is then rattled around by the timing gears until it either falls into the oil pan (rare), gets kicked out through the side of the timing case, or passes through gear train bending the camshaft and ruining the gears and case causing extensive damage. A small number of 12 Valve engines have encountered this problem but the repair is very costly, $1200 - $4000
Response from Cummins on this matter
"The timing pin diameter from the supplier and the hole drilled for the pin, are designed to be 'press fit' dimensions. In some cases, the supplied timing pin dimension and the drilled hole dimension, may not provide the correct 'press fit'. During assembly line manufacturing, it is impossible to determine the amount of 'press fit' between the pin and the drilled hole, once the pin is installed into the bore.
Some of the pins have not had the correct 'press fit' in the drilled hole and have worked out of the hole. This does cause extensive damage to the gears and gear cover. The percentage of failure is low and did not justify a major recall campaign of all engines. If an unexpected failure should occur during the warranty period of the engine, the repair will be handled under normal warranty practices.
Early in 1998 the gear cover was changed to a 'blind hole' design, which would not let the dowel pin move out of the bore. If you have a great fear of this pin coming out, we suggest discussing this issue with your local Dodge dealer or Cummins distributor, to determine the appropriate action in each situation.
The pin itself can be replaced if desired or Locktite can be used to hold it in place, without having to replace the pin or gear housing assembly.
Inspection and securing of the timing pin:
1. Remove the damper, pulley and gear cover from front of engine.
2. Tap on the dowel pin with a flat punch to insure that it is seated in the bore.
3. Clean all the oil from area with solvent and dry completely.
4. Apply some wicking type Locktite on the dowel pin and housing and let the Locktite cure.
5. Reinstall the cover with a new seal and gasket.
6. Reinstall damper and pulley.
We hope this helps you understand the dowel issue better.
signed Cummins"
Members here are a picky lot and don't trust Cummins' Loc-Tite fix nor believe it is a rare problem. The best ways of preventing the pin escaping are the jig fix and tab fix. Both methods work equally well and have their own advantages. The jig fix is faster, easier and basically free. The tab fix also allows you to tighten any loose bolts under the case cover and you can do it on your own time, no need to wait for a jig and pass it on to the next user. You do have to buy new seals and it takes longer than the jig fix.
For info on the tab fix contact Joe G at jgeorge@inreach.com for excellent instructions.
Click here for a diagram of how the KDP tab is made.
For those who do not have the facilities to fashion their own tab, You can go to Cummins and ask for Part# 3958017. It should be less than a dollar.
If you are interested in getting on a list for use of a KDP jig just click on the name of the caretaker in your area and send them a message with your name, mailing & email addresses and phone number. Mailing the jigs is what takes up the time, try to make a get together out of it and kill many at a time.
Please do not ask to use a jig if you feel you can't use it in a timely manner, others are waiting!!!
If you are waiting on a jig and plan an extended absence let the jig caretaker know so the jig isn't mailed to an empty house and gets stuck.
illflem - Northwest
Big K- koselinc@msn.com - Seattle area
Danelle - Calif & Southwest
Blakers - Northeast
Cooker - Midwest
TFabian Virginia and surrounds
M Barnett - Southeast
Rammin On- Mason-Dixon Mid Atlantic area
drawson@relia.net - Rocky Mtns
Gitchesum(Curtis Harris)-Texas and SouthCentral
CPFF is the master machinist to contact if you'd like to purchase a jig, care take one in an area not covered or just thank him for his excellent work that benefits us all.
Last edited by illflem on 02-28-2002 at 08:15 AM
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02-27-2002 09:56 AM
illflem
BFleming - Moderator
Registered: May 2000
Location: Bitterroot Valley,Montana
Posts: 7263
View Reader's Rigs Gallery
Jig Instructions with Pictures
Here's jig instructions if you'd like to look before you leap. to see pictures of a Jig in use and more instructions follow this link DodgeRam.org
Killer Dowel Pin Jig Instructions . . . illflem style.
1) Remove the fan hub. This is best done by using a long drift
placed on the right side of the nut flats and giving it a good whack with a
hammer. You can then remove the fan by holding the pulley with a pair of
large water pump pliers while turning the nut clockwise with a 1 7/16" open
end wrench. Spin the fan off and lower it down out of the way, no need to pull it out.
***Note: the jig now comes with the fan wrench and a pulley holder, ignore some of the above.
2) Crack the six bolts (10mm) on the fan pulley; do not remove
them until the belt is loose. Belt is loosened by inserting a 3/8" square
drive ratchet in the tensioner arm and turning counter clock wise. A
cheater bar helps. Remove belt from alternator.
3) Remove alternator top two bolts first, 10mm and 13mm, nuts are
welded. Now when you go to remove the bottom bolt (13mm) you can push the
alternator down, this will make the 15mm nut on this bolt easier to see.
Set the alternator back towards cab, do not remove wires.
4) Remove the six bolts on the fan pulley you cracked earlier,
they should turn out with you fingers. Remove the 4 bolts (10mm) that hold
the fan bearing mount. Notice that the bottom bolt is longer and the far
left bolt holds down a wire clamp, remember this for reassembly. Remove
mount. (The wire held by clamp you just removed can be pulled forward,
toward radiator, so the drill can go behind.)
4.5) Some folks have to remove their coolant reservoir, disconnect the hose and push in on the round tab facing the front while pulling up.
5) Clean the gear case side that was under the fan mount with a
rag. Remove the two case bolts (10mm) adjacent to the case curve and attach
the jig with them. It will only go on one way.
6) Remove the dipstick and slip the hose with the air valve
over the dipstick tube. You can turn the air on quite a bit without danger
of over-pressure, the excess will flow out the blow by tube. Do not block off the blowby or exceed 5 psi, blown gaskets are the result.
***If you don't have a compressor then a vacuum cleaner on blow duct taped to the oil fill spout with the blowby blocked works just as well.
7) Drill, countersink then tap the hole using the appropriate
bushings and a cordless drill. When tapping turn back the tap ¼ turn for
every ½ turn forward. You will hear the airflow slow if you allow too many
chips to accumulate in the tap.
** If when drilling the hole the bit doesn't go in all the way
to its stop, the dowel pin is coming out. You should still
countersink and tap. A short bolt is provided with the kit to plug the hole
if you don't have the new seals, gasket and time available. You will need to remove the
cover and pound the pin back in ASAP, there is no way of knowing how far
out the pin is, it could fall out tomorrow. After the pin is pounded back
in, replace the short temporary bolt with a long one. **
8) Blow excess chips away from the pulley and belt. Remove the
jig. Remove the air valve and replace dipstick. Insert the bolt using red
Loc-Tite, do not over tighten, you are going into aluminum. Unless the edge of the bolt head has been ground the bolt will look like it is in crooked. Don't worry this is normal and won't cause a problem, it's just because the bolt is going in at an angle to the case.
9) Reassemble everything using blue Loc-Tite, use anti-seize
on the fan hub. You will not be able to tighten the pulley bolts easily
until the belt is installed; it keeps the pulley from rotating. The easiest
way to replace the belt is to put it though all its pulleys, turn the
tensioner then slip the belt under the idler that rides on the back of the
belt. Replace fan and tighten it.
*** A headless bolt will help lineup the pulley and is included in some kits.
10) !MOST IMPORTANT! Thank John (CPFF) how ever you feel is appropriate, without his work on the jig the job would've been much more difficult. Most folks send $20 to:
John Strenkowski
1912 Exeter Rd
Lebanon CT 06249
Edited by Admin
Author Thread
illflem
BFleming - Moderator
Registered: May 2000
Location: Bitterroot Valley,Montana
Posts: 7263
View Reader's Rigs Gallery
Take care of it before it's too late
Don't delay on containing your dowel pin, the damage that little sucker can cause to your 12 valve and 24 valve up to '99 is severe. To see the damage and why it costs so much to repair click this http://www.flex.net/~triplem/new/dowelpin.htm
What is a killer dowel pin? it is the Upper Timing Case Dowel Pin
In the back of the timing gear case, there is an assembly index pin pressed into a hole. Some holes do not fit tightly around the pin and the pin can vibrate out of the hole, then fall into the gear train. The pin is then rattled around by the timing gears until it either falls into the oil pan (rare), gets kicked out through the side of the timing case, or passes through gear train bending the camshaft and ruining the gears and case causing extensive damage. A small number of 12 Valve engines have encountered this problem but the repair is very costly, $1200 - $4000
Response from Cummins on this matter
"The timing pin diameter from the supplier and the hole drilled for the pin, are designed to be 'press fit' dimensions. In some cases, the supplied timing pin dimension and the drilled hole dimension, may not provide the correct 'press fit'. During assembly line manufacturing, it is impossible to determine the amount of 'press fit' between the pin and the drilled hole, once the pin is installed into the bore.
Some of the pins have not had the correct 'press fit' in the drilled hole and have worked out of the hole. This does cause extensive damage to the gears and gear cover. The percentage of failure is low and did not justify a major recall campaign of all engines. If an unexpected failure should occur during the warranty period of the engine, the repair will be handled under normal warranty practices.
Early in 1998 the gear cover was changed to a 'blind hole' design, which would not let the dowel pin move out of the bore. If you have a great fear of this pin coming out, we suggest discussing this issue with your local Dodge dealer or Cummins distributor, to determine the appropriate action in each situation.
The pin itself can be replaced if desired or Locktite can be used to hold it in place, without having to replace the pin or gear housing assembly.
Inspection and securing of the timing pin:
1. Remove the damper, pulley and gear cover from front of engine.
2. Tap on the dowel pin with a flat punch to insure that it is seated in the bore.
3. Clean all the oil from area with solvent and dry completely.
4. Apply some wicking type Locktite on the dowel pin and housing and let the Locktite cure.
5. Reinstall the cover with a new seal and gasket.
6. Reinstall damper and pulley.
We hope this helps you understand the dowel issue better.
signed Cummins"
Members here are a picky lot and don't trust Cummins' Loc-Tite fix nor believe it is a rare problem. The best ways of preventing the pin escaping are the jig fix and tab fix. Both methods work equally well and have their own advantages. The jig fix is faster, easier and basically free. The tab fix also allows you to tighten any loose bolts under the case cover and you can do it on your own time, no need to wait for a jig and pass it on to the next user. You do have to buy new seals and it takes longer than the jig fix.
For info on the tab fix contact Joe G at jgeorge@inreach.com for excellent instructions.
Click here for a diagram of how the KDP tab is made.
For those who do not have the facilities to fashion their own tab, You can go to Cummins and ask for Part# 3958017. It should be less than a dollar.
If you are interested in getting on a list for use of a KDP jig just click on the name of the caretaker in your area and send them a message with your name, mailing & email addresses and phone number. Mailing the jigs is what takes up the time, try to make a get together out of it and kill many at a time.
Please do not ask to use a jig if you feel you can't use it in a timely manner, others are waiting!!!
If you are waiting on a jig and plan an extended absence let the jig caretaker know so the jig isn't mailed to an empty house and gets stuck.
illflem - Northwest
Big K- koselinc@msn.com - Seattle area
Danelle - Calif & Southwest
Blakers - Northeast
Cooker - Midwest
TFabian Virginia and surrounds
M Barnett - Southeast
Rammin On- Mason-Dixon Mid Atlantic area
drawson@relia.net - Rocky Mtns
Gitchesum(Curtis Harris)-Texas and SouthCentral
CPFF is the master machinist to contact if you'd like to purchase a jig, care take one in an area not covered or just thank him for his excellent work that benefits us all.
Last edited by illflem on 02-28-2002 at 08:15 AM
Report this post to a moderator |
02-27-2002 09:56 AM
illflem
BFleming - Moderator
Registered: May 2000
Location: Bitterroot Valley,Montana
Posts: 7263
View Reader's Rigs Gallery
Jig Instructions with Pictures
Here's jig instructions if you'd like to look before you leap. to see pictures of a Jig in use and more instructions follow this link DodgeRam.org
Killer Dowel Pin Jig Instructions . . . illflem style.
1) Remove the fan hub. This is best done by using a long drift
placed on the right side of the nut flats and giving it a good whack with a
hammer. You can then remove the fan by holding the pulley with a pair of
large water pump pliers while turning the nut clockwise with a 1 7/16" open
end wrench. Spin the fan off and lower it down out of the way, no need to pull it out.
***Note: the jig now comes with the fan wrench and a pulley holder, ignore some of the above.
2) Crack the six bolts (10mm) on the fan pulley; do not remove
them until the belt is loose. Belt is loosened by inserting a 3/8" square
drive ratchet in the tensioner arm and turning counter clock wise. A
cheater bar helps. Remove belt from alternator.
3) Remove alternator top two bolts first, 10mm and 13mm, nuts are
welded. Now when you go to remove the bottom bolt (13mm) you can push the
alternator down, this will make the 15mm nut on this bolt easier to see.
Set the alternator back towards cab, do not remove wires.
4) Remove the six bolts on the fan pulley you cracked earlier,
they should turn out with you fingers. Remove the 4 bolts (10mm) that hold
the fan bearing mount. Notice that the bottom bolt is longer and the far
left bolt holds down a wire clamp, remember this for reassembly. Remove
mount. (The wire held by clamp you just removed can be pulled forward,
toward radiator, so the drill can go behind.)
4.5) Some folks have to remove their coolant reservoir, disconnect the hose and push in on the round tab facing the front while pulling up.
5) Clean the gear case side that was under the fan mount with a
rag. Remove the two case bolts (10mm) adjacent to the case curve and attach
the jig with them. It will only go on one way.
6) Remove the dipstick and slip the hose with the air valve
over the dipstick tube. You can turn the air on quite a bit without danger
of over-pressure, the excess will flow out the blow by tube. Do not block off the blowby or exceed 5 psi, blown gaskets are the result.
***If you don't have a compressor then a vacuum cleaner on blow duct taped to the oil fill spout with the blowby blocked works just as well.
7) Drill, countersink then tap the hole using the appropriate
bushings and a cordless drill. When tapping turn back the tap ¼ turn for
every ½ turn forward. You will hear the airflow slow if you allow too many
chips to accumulate in the tap.
** If when drilling the hole the bit doesn't go in all the way
to its stop, the dowel pin is coming out. You should still
countersink and tap. A short bolt is provided with the kit to plug the hole
if you don't have the new seals, gasket and time available. You will need to remove the
cover and pound the pin back in ASAP, there is no way of knowing how far
out the pin is, it could fall out tomorrow. After the pin is pounded back
in, replace the short temporary bolt with a long one. **
8) Blow excess chips away from the pulley and belt. Remove the
jig. Remove the air valve and replace dipstick. Insert the bolt using red
Loc-Tite, do not over tighten, you are going into aluminum. Unless the edge of the bolt head has been ground the bolt will look like it is in crooked. Don't worry this is normal and won't cause a problem, it's just because the bolt is going in at an angle to the case.
9) Reassemble everything using blue Loc-Tite, use anti-seize
on the fan hub. You will not be able to tighten the pulley bolts easily
until the belt is installed; it keeps the pulley from rotating. The easiest
way to replace the belt is to put it though all its pulleys, turn the
tensioner then slip the belt under the idler that rides on the back of the
belt. Replace fan and tighten it.
*** A headless bolt will help lineup the pulley and is included in some kits.
10) !MOST IMPORTANT! Thank John (CPFF) how ever you feel is appropriate, without his work on the jig the job would've been much more difficult. Most folks send $20 to:
John Strenkowski
1912 Exeter Rd
Lebanon CT 06249
Edited by Admin
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Silver City NM
Re:Bottom line on KDP
JFYI, We also have the KDP Jig and have been doing repairs for 8 or so months... Discounts for DTR Members... Thx Kurt Yardley<br><br>MILD TO WILD DIESEL<br>505-534-0434
;D<br><br>Next time you drive through NewMexico Stop in! L8tr 
Banned
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
From: IDAHO
Re:Bottom line on KDP
harold also has a jig for fixin the kdp. his email is rvhvnfn@juno.com
here is a link for more info
http://www.nwbombers.com/board/ikonb...ST;f=11;t=2874
here is a link for more info
http://www.nwbombers.com/board/ikonb...ST;f=11;t=2874
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
From: Maple Ridge B.C Canada
Re:Bottom line on KDP
Hey KwikKurt?<br>Was just wondering... during the course of your KDP repairs...how many jobs have you done where the pin is *actually* in danger of falling out or are your repairs mostly "preventative" or are the repairs "after" the pin has fallen out?<br>in other words :
what are the %ages of failures youv'e seen?
what are the %ages of failures youv'e seen?
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Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: Silver City NM
Re:Bottom line on KDP
[quote author=JImbo1 link=board=16;threadid=13962;start=0#133239 date=1051637568]<br>KwikKurt,<br><br>I would love to stop in New Mexico and get it fixed.<br>What is a New Mexico and will I need a passport? 
<br>[/quote]<br><br>LOL.... I will send you a Temp Green Card! 
....<br><br>GoldenEars, I have repaired a few dozen and would say that 2 out of ten have moved some. It is really Hard to say since unless it has moved enough to block the drill bit then we don't take it apart and tap it back in. But when we have had to open the gearcase for other repairs Two out of ten move when we tap them. Including a 99 24V!...
<br>[/quote]<br><br>LOL.... I will send you a Temp Green Card! ....<br><br>GoldenEars, I have repaired a few dozen and would say that 2 out of ten have moved some. It is really Hard to say since unless it has moved enough to block the drill bit then we don't take it apart and tap it back in. But when we have had to open the gearcase for other repairs Two out of ten move when we tap them. Including a 99 24V!...
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