Sled Puller

Yes Peter, I do.<br>Reason one, you were concerned about an unsprung design being hard on the drivetrain from past failures.<br><br>This does not seem to be a problem with Mitchells, I have no idea why.<br><br>Reason two, you know what a a guy who buys a dual disc is going to do with it, and there is the possibility of explosion, and somebdoy getting hurt. Nobody needs that.<br>So you stated you would not release your puller until SFI blankets were available.<br>Well, Enterprise has had custom 5 and 6 speed blankets ready since September.Blow proof bell housings were in the works also, not sure if they are ready yet. They also have developed driveshaft loops and kill switches.<br><br>Keep in mind Dave is not bolting these things together in his kitchen, the company that builds them has been doing clutches for a long time.<br><br>I think the bottom line here is they are the most expensive clutch out there, they hold more horsepower than anyone else, you can slip them at 4000+ rpm with 40,000# behind you, pull off the track and drive it to the grocery store or pull your camper, with out chattering your teeth out of your skull.<br><br>Try a search on TDR , look for any complaints. You won't find one.<br>

South Bend Clutch

You forgot one reason,

I was waiting for people that were unfamiliar with sled pulling to learn how abusive and costly it is to do this sport. Now, his clutches are not fail proof as I am sure you know. I have talked to quite a few people that have had problems like levers breaking and center plates breaking and so on. Does this mean it is a bad product...no it does not. People do not speek up about it because Dave cunducts his business very well and takes care of the problem. My main concern is the safty issue which has been addressed. Dave is no longer working on the bellhousing because of the cost from my understanding, not for sure. One thing that bothers me though, when Dave's clutch blew up and everyone said &quot;oh it is just because he had to much power&quot; or &quot;I never saw him come out of the hole like that&quot; seemed to excuse him of what happened. Had someone got hurt or killed would he have been so easly forgiven? That clutch could have just as easly been mine. It wasn't defective, it is the nature of the sport. As you learned it does not take 10,000 RPM's with heat and torque to cause this type of reaction. I am glad the sport is heading in the right direction now and Dave has been a big part of that. (A little late on the safty issue) but it is being addressed now. I bet you have a blanket on you truck now when you pull when before you would have told me I was silly to require such a thing.

Now we have to start working on getting you guy's some sponcers so you can afford to keep doing it. Everyone sure enjoys coming to the events to watch but they need to know just how costly it is. For exsample, If you burn your clutch up which will happen if it hasn't already, EE is not just going to give you another clutch. That would be luticris(sp) and not expected. You will need to purchase anouther $1700 clutch. Preaty soon you guy's will have to mess up the nice paint jobs and put big stickers aaaaall over that truck. LOL

By the way, I don't think it shuold be the vendors doing the sponcering, this is there livelyhood. Come on Coke or Pepsi Or Tide or Cellular One....we need ya.

Peter

Don M

For the record, if there is somewhere in the neighborhood of of .100 or more removed from the face of the flywheel I would never put it in my truck and go pull 45,000 pounds with it. I would not drive it anywhere for that matter. I have resurfaced my flywheel 3 times. Each time I removed about .010 thou. for a total of .030. If you were to machine away .110 like the Rob stated it would be like cutting my flywheel 10 times. If we were to take away a half inch or more it would be like cutting my flywheel 50 times as much as is genrally required. NO thanks! High rotational speeds like these pullers are running ( Rob not included ) causes stress and fatigue failures. Cutting away that much material is dangerous, and somehwhat reckless, IMO. <br>I complained about noone having any safety equipment last spring. Gene and others laughed it away. I see the blankets and other devices or slowly being implemented. Good!!! <br>Several problems exist though: Blankets were designed for automatic trannies to stop explosions of smaller and lighter parts from chopping stuff to pieces. Like feet, legs, the crowd, etc. A blanket may have a hard time containing a 40-50 pound flywheel or chunk of one. Blankets if not removed after the competition will cause excessive heat build-up. So this means you have to remove it for normal driving. So there goes your protection you really need while driving around town, etc as well. Blow proof bellhousings are the best answer and it seems as though the rule to use one will be swept under the rug for yet another season. <br>This past spring I attended an outlaw pulling event here in Texas. I witnessed a tranny explosion in mud bog racer. When it grenaded the internal parts of the tranny came straight up through the floorboard and blew out the windshield, chopped into the poor dude behind the wheel and he was nearly killed. They hauled him off in an ambulance with bleeding limbs and face profusly. I also heard of a flywheel or clutch failure that Dave Mitchell had a few months back. Pieces of metal landed in the stands where spectators were watching. Not good!<br><br>Don~<br>

Rammin On

Don ...<br><br>I was there ... and saw the clutch grenade .... was interesting at best .... chunks flying everywhere ...

Lary Ellis (Top)

The value of Safety equipment can never be overstated! Unfortunately far too many people will skimp their money in the one area that may very well keep them or another from a tragic death.<br> Rules should not have to be implemented to force people to do the right thing, but without them it just doesn't get done. These motor sports are a lot of fun, but the fun sure fades fast when something happens like that mud bogger Don mentioned.<br> Thanks to ALL you people who keep hammering away at the safety issues, I know it costs more of those precious racing and pulling dollars, but the return value is priceless!.

Don M

Even if the chances were a million to one that the explosions would not take place, the stakes are very high when placing this bet. A clutch explosion chopped off a chunk of Don Garlits foot back in his racing days. He will tell ya how important it is to have a SEMA or now SFI bellhousing is. I watched few videos from the pulls up in the pulling country and was surprised to see young children lined up on the fence just a few feet away from these trucks as they pull the sled down the track. Betting the body parts on a million to one deal is not my idea of smart. Now some of us could use a little weight chopped off here and there, but ...... <br><br>Don~

Sled Puller

hmmmm, lets see here- Daves clutch let go after 2 years of mega hp, far and above ANYBODY on TDR, and abuse, Peters let go in a TWO WHEEL DRIVE with STOCK TIRES after about 6 seconds. You would have thought the tires would have spun first.<br>But that is ok, because Peter tells people not to sled pull. <br><br>OR DOES HE? <br>I guess any Cummins over stock HP regardless of whos clutch it is, should have a blanket. That glass house in South Bend is looking kind of frail.<br><br>Did you see Enterprise bash SBC after that one let go under the the banner, &quot;we are concerned about safety&quot;? No, you did not.<br><br>Safety was slow to catch up with street diesels hp. Enterprise was about 2 weeks from a blanket. Enterprise explains this on their site quite clearly. However, they were following all the safety rules that were in place this year.<br><br>Don, please don't exaggerate what happened. Those are Joes words.he was in vegas, you were in Texas. Hard to tell stories when you are 1500 miles away from the event. I was standing RIGHT there, so was Rob, and the flagger, etc. Dave was past the stands, and on the infield side. The clutch let go after the truck was stopped and off the power. Parts bounced on the ground harmlessly.<br><br>BTW, my clutch is fine, with about 20+ hooks on it. I'm sure it will get another 20 or more, as the original prototype went much farther than that, and is still in use.<br><br>Don, give us a link to that carnage, becuase your stories in the past always seem to come up bogus.<br><br>Peter, that was big of you waiting to let people see how hard this sport was on their trucks.<br>What a load of horse hockey.<br><br>You didn't have the know how to build a comp clutch, or decided there was not enough money in it, pure and simple.<br>Why was Enterprise's clutch such a threat to you? You sell hundreds more clutchs than they do, two total different markets, are you not happy with the lions share?<br><br>Why can't you just sell your product and be happy with it, instead of preaching about what the competition should or shouldn't be doing?<br><br><br><br>Safety silly? No, but highly unlikely at my level. I pulled 6 more times after Daves let go, along with dozens of other guys. If I was going to stay at this level, I would not be concerned. I will have one for next year, along with loops, kill switch ,air shut off, etc.<br><br>You are right about sponsers Peter, and nobody will sponsor anything that is not riddled with safety equipment. <br><br>And why in the heck are you using Centerforce parts? Is that not a step backward?<br><br><br><br>Here is a link to Enterprise's blanket issue:<br>http://www.enterpriseengine.com/results2002pulls.htm<br><br>Follow down to August, Scheid event.

Don M

Gene,<br><br>what did I exagerate about Mitchells clutch, flywheel, whatever? I just said something exploded. Pieces of metal did land in the stands according to witnesses there. No, I did not see it with my own eyes. The point is, stuff can explode and DID explode. I know you are not waiting to see someone get hurt before you do something. People have been hurt in the past.So......<br><br>twenty plus hooks huh? Thats not a large enough data set to make this guy happy. Go make a thousand maybe I will reconsider you not needing safety equipment. So Daves clutch or explosion landed on the ground with the power backed off. What if this same explosion had blown up or outward as opposed to down and the power had been ON?<br> ??? ??? ??? ??? That thin sheet of metal floorboard between you and the bellhousing would not even slow the chunks of flying pieces down before they either hit your feet or your body. Dude!!!<br><br><br>Saying a clutch or flywheel cant explode or is highly unlikely is somewhat reckless at your power level and dragging 45,000 pounds of sled. It is actually very likely and cutting away as little as 100 thou from the flywheel is just making the problem that much more possible.<br><br>Do you have a blanket? Do you have it installed when driving on the street and some rice rocket, etc comes along to race? If you dont you are taking risk of life and limb of you and others. If you do have it installed you are building up a ton of heat on the bellhousing. Lose lose scenerio. Get a blowproof bellhousing and a steel billet flywheel or you may not be the thorn in my side much longer.<br><br>This brings me back to steel flywheels, evey serious class of racing requires an SFI approved flywheel. Not some cast iron stocker shaved down to weaken it even further. Are you going to get a steel billet flywheel? Any plans to implement them into the sport? <br><br>Using an air shut off is a great idea. I had a rack stick in my truck once and the thing would not shut off. I was nearly impossible to kill the engine. It just did what it wanted to, ran and ran and ran. I could not kill it. thank goodness I had an electric fuel pump to allow me to shut it off. Most 12 valves dont have this. And it appears you dont have one yet either.<br><br>Don~<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br >

Sled Puller

(yawn) You just keep repeating yourself Don. No matter how hard you try to make people think Mitchells parts are unsafe,so you can sell them Joes latest abortion, it won't work.<br><br>And if you do scare a few customers off, by your stories, they will be at Enterprise, sooner, rather than later, begging for something to hook!<br>There are thousands of hooks on Enterprise clutchs.They do what they are advertised to do.<br> I would like to see ANYONE elses clutch last more than 5 shifts in Daves truck, without the sled, just on the street.<br>Joe claims his holds 633, and you always claim Dave doesn't have that much, put up or shut up Don, lets get a Joe clutch in one of Daves trucks, see how it holds.<br><br>Like I said, if we all want to jump on the safety bandwagon, everyone of us should turn down the fuel, or put safety equipment on our street trucks, auto or stick, single or dual disc clutch., bolts in a cross in the exhaust, to catch blown turbos, etc.<br><br>

Promoter

Safety is a huge thing and it really needs to be taken more seriously than it is. And we are all guilty of it. I run a steel flywheel and a blanket. I only know of one SFI blowproof can for our trucks. And it cost $3000. But it was necessary to run 4 disks. So ya still wonder why no one has them,Don? I have seen clutch and u-joint failures,turbos exploding,etc with people standing 20ft away. It's just a matter of time.

Don M

I never said the Mitchell clutch wont hold. ON the contrary I have told several folks the Mitchell and Haisley clutchs were working very well for pullers. I have a problem with cutting too much material away from the flywheel. Joes clutch is not for pulling. Joes clutch has a sprung hub, better for the street and towing. Mitchells clutch is not sprung and rattles constantly at idle. It also transmits vibrations right into the tranny. Not good for long term and street driven use. Different products for different purposes. Joes clutch will melt like butter with the brass/ceramic pucks if slipped. It is not for pulling. Peters clutch can explode if used for pulling. It is not for pulling. But neither Joes or Peters will vibrate the tranny or rattle like Daves does.<br>My problem is the lack of safety and insistance for months that it was not needed. Until the ATPA stepped in and asked for rules of safety you guys were satisfied to keep on keepin on. <br><br>Do you have a blanket? Is it installed all the time? If so, does the tranny get red hot from the blanket being installed constantly? Does it rattle at idle like Larry Crawfords does? How much was shaved off your flywheel? Do you know the acceptable amount the factory states is safe to machine off a flywheel for even stock trucks pulling stock loads? Never mind a pulling truck with 3 times the hp and 3-10 times the rated weight carrying capacity. <br><br><br>Don~<br>

Don M

[quote author=BULLWAGON link=board=7;threadid=7805;start=30#77122 date=1039283866]<br>Safety is a huge thing and it really needs to be taken more seriously than it is. And we are all guilty of it. I run a steel flywheel and a blanket. I only know of one SFI blowproof can for our trucks. And it cost $3000. But it was necessary to run 4 disks. So ya still wonder why no one has them,Don? I have seen clutch and u-joint failures,turbos exploding,etc with people standing 20ft away. It's just a matter of time.<br>[/quote]<br><br>Great post Bull. Man, Im glad to see that. You are one of the few with a steel flywheel and the extra strength of that baby will allow it to be much thinner than a stock cast iron wheel.<br>It is just a matter of time. Four disks huh? WOW! Sounds like the Crower slipper clutchs I have seen.<br><br>Don~<br><br><br><br>

Promoter

I'm not the only one running a steel flywheel. All of Haisley's pulling clutches come with a new one. Cast is only rated for like 4000r's.

Don M

Van is a smart guy for doing this. This shows a very high &quot;give a dern factor&quot; on his part. I have watched as others speak highly of his input shaft he builds for the 5 speed. I actually want one. Once I find a sprung hub I like for a street clutch with the 1-3/8 shaft I am going to get him to build me a shaft. For those know dont know it...Van also has to machine a new bearing retainer to slip over the newer and larger input shaft. This is why the price is around 750bucks. That is alot of work to custom build, from billet a one off part like that. It is a bargain. <br>I twisted a stock input shaft in my 5 speed this fall. Hence the need for a better part.<br><br>Don~<br><br><br><br>

Hired Gun

All this talk about clutches is great. There is safety involved in everything. Glad to see people working on new ideas on how to make the sport better. I think most of the people who go to pulls are now wanting to see the diesel trucks more and more. That is much better than a modified tractor I think. My 2 cents.<br><br>What about warranty's. <br><br>South Bend? COn FE<br><br>Mitchells?<br><br>Sachs?<br><br>Haisley? <br><br>I havent seen much about it. Somebody answer it please.