Unfortunately I think the cop is going to get his edit handed to him in court by a good lawyer. I tried to put myself in both sets of shoes, but I think the cop should have just told him how fast he was going. All he could say was " WELL "......I don't think he knew for sure how fast the guy was going.

 

Wow,
I've been gone for a couple of days and see several different points of view.
First let me say the way this trooper conducted the entire interaction does sicken me to a point.I can almost promise you, had it been me that stop would have ended differently. Even with the driver acting like a jerk.
I like the example about different mechanincs. It really sums it up best.

I have failed rookies in traning who did a better job than this.

On to the spin off subjects. When I was in a training role I also instructed officers to get the DL and Proof of Financial responsibility before explaining the violation. I know this may sound horrible but if the violator wanted to argue too long or too much, I would simply tell them I would be right back and walk away. If I had explained first, then I would be there continuing to debate not only the infraction, but then the need for me to have the drivers license etc... If they refused at that point I would then be forced to arrest them. It just worked out better for me the other way.
As to the need for a signature, Our JP (Justice of the Peace) Court refuses to issue warrants if the person did not sign it.
I had a violator get off one time because he convinced the judge his brother had been issued the citation using his information. The person stopped did not have identification, so maybe he was right? Our court sometimes takes years for cases to be adjuciated.
I fixed that. After that I went to a local bank and got one of those inkless pads. If the violator had no ID on them but records checked out, I would have them put a thumb print on the citation. Proof enough!!
Anyways sorry for getting side tracked but as stated each court/ state has different requirments and I guess we adapt to survive at our jobs.

Great discussion. I'm newer here and it's good to see people with different points of view discussing a topic and it remaining civil.

 

THE BIG PICTURE.........oooooooooooooo!

LAWS are written and enacted because someone screwed up, lawsuit or public outrage gets it in ink.
MONEY follows LAW! in any direction, remember that.
So screw up and it will cost you lots of money...

As a judge, signatures mean nothing , period. you fail to show at a notified appearance and a scofflaw judgement is entered. No manhunt, warrant or anyone that cares you are not there. (plead not guilty then go talk to the DA)
means you try in a year from now to register your vehicle, guess what pops up. Go back to Court, get it settled (plead, or trial, or dismissed for three reasons)
then dept of Motor Vehicles will unlock your life. Insurances rates go up after DMV notifies them of a scofflaw; in NY you are subjected to a DMV hearing on regaining your license should it involve timeliness, insurance or unlicensed charges (any misdemeanors on up)

We had 19 funerals last year for our state Troopers. that is as traumatic as the space shuttle disaster. no signature required, supporting depostion printed out right there (not that it has anything for the driver) and no explanations. You save it for the judge the moment the lights come on and you stop. this saves our very expensive troopers over your sixty dollar speeding ticket- that is the truth for the 'why cops are jerks' argument..

I once ( LONG time ago and only once) slapped a probationary candidate because he let me get that close to him, for an explanation/argument try; as a training set up (he thinks I am a real traffic stop). it changed his mind about being "polite, professional and responsive to the public". I still have two 'bottom exits' from that event from my supervisors. But the message got pounded into the recruits at the Academy.

For the record: In COURT, any OFFICIAL IS DEEMED CORRECT! assessor, cop, code enforcement, Long Island garbage police (yes, there is).....The BURDEN OF PROOF is on you. called affirmative defense when you screw up but shouldn't be found guilty and that will never happen in a traffic Court.

C'mon fellas, you will wind up 'not in a good situation' with some inkling of arguing with any police on the roadside stops. put this horse to rest....

I want all DTR guys to have an opinion, not find out the hard way....i'm selfish that way- keeps ya around

 

The signature is irrelavent. The judge/magistrate is not trained in hand writing analysis. Would a fraud case fly in court without a trained tech giving an opinion on a signature. Try to find one that would take time to appear on a civil infraction when the guy says, "That's not my signature". It's a waste of time, keeps the officer AND driver in a hazardous situation longer than needed, and more potential for haveing original copies lost, damaged, etc, flapping in the wind and rain. The fact that you don't have I.D. on you when driving can get you lodged. If the officer isn't certain or just wants to be safe while giving the driver the benefit of the doubt, we'll take a thumb print on the back of our copy of the ticket.

The officer was rude and unprofessional, but everything "appeared" legal. I don't like the way he handled it , as mentioned earlier, but the DRIVER is the one who put the images in his families head. He started argueing immediately, took forever to take it out of gear and take the foot off the brake like he might bolt. When the officer walked back to the car, he put his foot on the brake again a long time like he might try to bolt. I tend to think the driver was giving him a hard time prior to stopping by how quickly back-up DID arrive.

You'll see more and more taser use as departments pick them up and train. It's is not considered lethal force and saves injuries on both sides. Most of the ones that die, lead a lifestyle that has them not much better than dead physically already and probably are at the same amount of risk if they wrestled with the officer instead. Also with more and more cut backs and less opportunity for back-up officers, who wants to wrestle with somebody for an extended time and have somebody angry at you in close proximity to your gun?

 

I'm still glad the perp got tasered - hopefully it knocked the stoopit out of him... and shame on him (the perp) for subjecting his pregnant wife to that episode.

Many years ago, I endured a pistol-whipping by a group of thugs in order to stay calm and maintain control in a situation where I needed to protect my wife and baby son from harm - escalation & time both move in the same direction, and will make or break a winning hand... besides, you can always kill them later.

In this case, neither the perp nor the LEO exhibited clear thinking or sound judgement, but one of the nice parts about living in the United States is that one needn't be worried about the occasional jerk with a gun and a badge - the legal system is designed to iron out those wrinkles!


A man without self-control is like a city without walls.

 

this is all very interseting I think the jerk of a driver got what he deserved where is the respect for authority Im sure I will get flamed for this but good cop or bad he is a COP show him the respect his badge deserves he is on your side until proven otherwise if you dont want stopped tasered beaten shot. Do what you know you should be doing. I got stopped friday evening I had rented a trackhoe from the local shop and the trailer it came with had no lights I dug water line for my mom and it was dark when I headed home I took back roads and drove slowly trying not to get into an accident and more importantly not get stopped. I passed a Trooper about 4 miles from my house. He nev er slowed down about half a mile later he hit his brakes it must have hit him trailer no lights back road ding ding ding STOLEN TRACKHOE
He whipped around and I just pulled off of the road and waited for him to get there. He pulled in behind me I stepped out of the truck with hands visible he asked me to reenter the vehicle. I said yes sir and complied. He cautiously approached the truck asked for my L&R I handed them both to him and explained that I had rented the equipment and trailer and that the lights didnt work and that I was intentionally driving the back roads as to not get ran over. He asked to see the rental agreement I explained that I had left it with my mother so she could recoup some of the cost on her taxes. He went back to his car and checked my info and returned with a warning for no trailer lights. This was a guy who had every reason not to believe me I had absolutely no proof of what I was claiming. He would have been well within his rights as far as I'm concerned to hold me there until I could produce proof of the rental agreement. And he was a stand up guy used common sense was extremely polite not all LEO's are "richards" in fact the majority when treated with respect and not threatened are good folks in my experience. The guy in the video is a **** but if it were me pulled over I can assure you I would not have gotten tasered. These guys walk up to a different threat every time the do their job and pull someone over give them a break.


Ps On a side note I had a .40 caliber GLOCK shoved in my ear one time completely my fault I forgot I had a .22 pistol in the side pocket of my door I never intended to use it so it never came to mind he asked me to step out and saw it man was he quick. I immediately studdered out an explanation and an apology he understood and eventually apologized for scaring me but I understood I would have done the same thing the point is in my experience respect and honesty is the best policy.

 

The problem I have with the tazer is that it is being treated as a non-lethal weapon. Despite what the manufacturer says, that is an electric charge running through your body. There are other things in there that are partially controlled by electric charges that can be affected that are needed to keep going. How do you modify a heartbeat? With an electric current.

As for right or wrong...that isnt my place to say as I dont have personal experience here. Do I think this guy needs a desk job? Yup...

Just an interesting aside about the signature vs non signature tickets, the Cincinnati Enquirer just ran a story about a Cincinnati officer who decided not to ticket a few folks in a traffic accident in icy conditions. The supervisor was going to reprimand her for it, so she wrote the tickets and processed them after the fact. The drivers got to find out when they were hauled out of their cars and put in jail for warrants for failure to appear. The union doesnt want her fired for it. Im not sure which Im more angry about...the fact that she betrayed the trust placed on the LEOs or the fact that the union wants to stand up for her.

 

Taser are what we call "Less Lethal" weapons.. Never "Non lethal" or "less than lethal" because they can and may in fact cause death..

Now for the Taser causing death this is very debatable.. If someone dies after a taser deployment and sues the Taser company will go into court and defend their taser and to this day they have won all of their cases.. the deaths that happen after taser deployments are usually caused by other things such as drugs etc.. Lets say you are on PCP.. you heart rate increases to 300+ your blood veins dilate and you flow allot of blood.. now you are tased and restrained.. you calm down and your heart rate drops but the blood vessels are still dilated.. Heart failures, strokes, death... was it the tasers fault.. no....

Tasers are far better than the LEO actually having to go in and put their hands on someone.. recently I had a little scuffle... in the use of force review the questions asked were.. why didn't you pepper spray him, why didn't you tase him... well his family was standing right there and I would have peppered them also.. the other officer that was there was on training and froze in the situation .. didn't draw his taser.. (dam it looked good strapped on his leg).. so it came to a resistive handcuffing...

Bottom line.. Departments would rather you keep distance and tase than put hands on and take the chance of the bad guy getting the officers gun or the officer getting hurt.. especially when working a 1 man hoop..

I will still argue the license first and signatures.. that signature protects me if they say I never cited them... It is pretty simple every time you let someone defy the law or the authority of the LEO then you are doing none of your partners any good..

next time they will figure that they can get away with it and things will escalate with every encounter.. LAPD here is so scared of complaints they they don't have the respect of the community.. now as a deputy We have to deal with that basic disrespect, although most of the real bad guys have a respect for the sheriff's some of the others seem to think that I wasn't speeding so I'm not giving you your license is the way not to get a ticket..or when you respond to the fight if they got away with ignoring you they will try it again.. Guess my attitude is a little different because of where I work, south central Los Angeles, and that most of my shift is responding to crime calls. maybe I would have a different attitude about the signature thing if I was a traffic officer and had to deal with tickets all shift.

 

Yes, he is a major edit.This just really ticks me off, cops that abuse power. He gives a BAD name to decent cops.

 

I tend to get pretty ticked off.

 

Whatever, the cop is a trained professional in business of diffusing situations like this without the use of tasers! if he is not capable of that feat then time for a career change. I will bet you anything that this driver is NOT the only person to ask questions or refuse to comply in a situation that he feels is unjustified or unfair. Is the acceptable practice to taser everybody, that should happen to question his almighty authority? Come on use your head, be a professional and explain his rights (or wrongs) to him (as you would a child)to ensure there is no doubt of the infraction and I am sure he will see the error of his ways. If he doesn't then that is a different situation indeed. To think joe public know the rules/regulations the same as a state trooper or other law enforcement personnel is assanine.
I stand by my earlier comments the trooper should be fired!

 

I havent read every response in this thread but I live in Utah and have been pulled over many times I have been in the wrong most the time and other times I havent been, One time I myself refused to sign the ticket and the officer wrote on ticket "refused to sign ticket" that is the what happens if you dont sign it, it isnt authorizing an arrest. As far as cops go there are some real morons that dont give you any respect and there are good cops that speak to you on a normal level and do there job the right way.

 

This tool that calls himself a police officer in the video is the reason that tasers will be removed from the hands of law enforcement in the coming years.

A couple bad apples ruin the whole batch....

And yes Taser's are killing people......

 

But not as many people that would die if the cops had to use their guns. Everyone of the perps that die from taser events can die if that keeps a cop from getting smoked by some moron that thinks the cop is wrong and wants to fight the cop to show his buddies how mean he is.

 

CamperAndy,
So in your scope of thinking this guy in the Minivan with his wife and 2 Infant children should have been shot with a service firearm if the trooper was not equipped with a taser.....all for not signing the speeding ticket and walking away from the trooper.

Makes a lot of sense.

Please share more of your wisdom.


Dfranks stated above the Highway patrol officer should be fired....I totally agree with that statement and I also think he should be charged with assault with a deadly weapon.
Just because someone is a cop does not give them a green light to beat up on people and power trip when ever they want.