How far would you go to protect your vehicle?
DTR's Night Watchman & Poet Laureate
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 1
From: Lyndon KS
The days of the wild west (even in Texas...) are over. Some may not see all aspects of "progress" as that. Laws are made to "protect society" - but the application of some of those laws in real-world situations can be tough.
I was in law enforcement and carried a weapon for ten years. We were very clear about what the statute in our state said about the use of "deadly force". we were also clear that it was vague and subject to interpretation, especially by a jury. We governed ourselves accordingly.
Problem ownership (along with honesty, integrity...) seem to be absent in a lot of society today. Take no responsibility for anything and then lawyer-up at the first opportunity.
Today a lot of kids aren't raised with the direction and fiber that many of us were. We turned out the way we did, most of us anyway, due to our upbringing and our influences. Kids today are no different. You may disagree with "spare the rod, spoil the child" - but there are a whole bunch of aimless, misguided, unsocialized "kids" who have the capacity to create a lot of havoc running around - that is plain fact.
But also, as responsible adults, we need to temper our responses. The "law" may enable a certain response, but that may not mean it is always "right". It is unfair and angering to have one's property defaced, but it is just that, property. You can replace it, yeah...even though you shouldn't have to. The "threat" of bodily injury or death may deter some kid, but prisons don't seem to deter many criminals, nor does the death penalty. Ever hear ANYONE say, heck, I was goin' to shoot that fella', but then I was afraid they'd put me to death in thrity years ? Guess not.
I carry a weapon to this day under permit. I know how and WHEN to use it. But even when law officers use their weapons, there is a review, and believe me each and every nuance and circumstance will be looked at in a nice climate-controlled setting where everyone had a good nights sleep and a big breakfast....you make a split second decision, often in the heat-of-the-moment, and when everything is nice and calm and cool, others will deliberate YOUR fate. We all know people who anger easily - we all have probably said or done things when "hot" which we regret when we cool down. Haven't every one of us at some time wished we could "take it back" , whatever it was ? Well, knowing and admitting all of that, apply it to this situation. There is plenty of blame to go around, but two wrongs don't make a right, do they, or has that changed since I was a kid ?
You pull a weapon, anywhere, anytime, and discharge it at another person, you had better be well justified, not only under law, but also in the court of public opinion. Oh...and in your own mind, too. It is a very serious and usually irreversible decision...unlike the eggs that you can wash off your truck (or better still, if the kids are caught, have them wash the eggs off and then wash your truck once each week for six months....that will make them LEARN something, not just show them that you can be the bigger bully).
I was in law enforcement and carried a weapon for ten years. We were very clear about what the statute in our state said about the use of "deadly force". we were also clear that it was vague and subject to interpretation, especially by a jury. We governed ourselves accordingly.
Problem ownership (along with honesty, integrity...) seem to be absent in a lot of society today. Take no responsibility for anything and then lawyer-up at the first opportunity.
Today a lot of kids aren't raised with the direction and fiber that many of us were. We turned out the way we did, most of us anyway, due to our upbringing and our influences. Kids today are no different. You may disagree with "spare the rod, spoil the child" - but there are a whole bunch of aimless, misguided, unsocialized "kids" who have the capacity to create a lot of havoc running around - that is plain fact.
But also, as responsible adults, we need to temper our responses. The "law" may enable a certain response, but that may not mean it is always "right". It is unfair and angering to have one's property defaced, but it is just that, property. You can replace it, yeah...even though you shouldn't have to. The "threat" of bodily injury or death may deter some kid, but prisons don't seem to deter many criminals, nor does the death penalty. Ever hear ANYONE say, heck, I was goin' to shoot that fella', but then I was afraid they'd put me to death in thrity years ? Guess not.
I carry a weapon to this day under permit. I know how and WHEN to use it. But even when law officers use their weapons, there is a review, and believe me each and every nuance and circumstance will be looked at in a nice climate-controlled setting where everyone had a good nights sleep and a big breakfast....you make a split second decision, often in the heat-of-the-moment, and when everything is nice and calm and cool, others will deliberate YOUR fate. We all know people who anger easily - we all have probably said or done things when "hot" which we regret when we cool down. Haven't every one of us at some time wished we could "take it back" , whatever it was ? Well, knowing and admitting all of that, apply it to this situation. There is plenty of blame to go around, but two wrongs don't make a right, do they, or has that changed since I was a kid ?
You pull a weapon, anywhere, anytime, and discharge it at another person, you had better be well justified, not only under law, but also in the court of public opinion. Oh...and in your own mind, too. It is a very serious and usually irreversible decision...unlike the eggs that you can wash off your truck (or better still, if the kids are caught, have them wash the eggs off and then wash your truck once each week for six months....that will make them LEARN something, not just show them that you can be the bigger bully).
Banned
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 996
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From: Stillwater, OK
Yes. Great post and views..in my opinion. I too carry under permit and hope the day never comes when I feel like my life is threatened. Then and only then would it be even considered to come out. That is what the class teaches and that is what I beleive. That still doesn't mean I wouldn't pull a lariat rope out from behind the seat, lasso his butt, and drag him around. I might get arrested for abuse, but not for murder!
Thats MR Hoss to you buddy!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,759
Likes: 3
From: Central Texas
In Texas if someone threw an egg and hit your truck and blew him away your butt would be in front of a grand jury quicker than you can spit. Your lawyer fees would wipe you out and I wouldn't be surprised if they threw a true bill on you. You may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride. Do you really think it is worth it to ruin your life over something so trivial.
bearwhiz
bearwhiz
Thats MR Hoss to you buddy!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,759
Likes: 3
From: Central Texas
Interesting thread. It is clear as day that opposite opinions are present, and the politically correct side proudyl proclaims, "nothing material that I own is worth taking other's life for".
Ok, let's see. You are in your bed. Your door is kicked in, and two people bustle into your house. They have an axe, but all they are doing is taking your VCR and some jewelry, and they inform you that they are not going to kill you.
Ok, let's see. You are in your bed. Your door is kicked in, and two people bustle into your house. They have an axe, but all they are doing is taking your VCR and some jewelry, and they inform you that they are not going to kill you.
Now, the above story has a different twist...at least for me. You see, if someone kicks in MY door then I'm going to assume that they are there to do bodily harm. If I have the chance I'm going for a weapon. What happens once I get that weapon all depends on their reaction to my pistol or shotgun being aimed at them. If they want to stop in their tracks, turn around and walk out the door then I'll let them...even if they have my stereo in their hands. If, however, they make any threatening moves towards me or my family then I'm going to defend myself.
On the other hand, if I heard a sound outside during the night and went out to finding someone backing my truck out of the driveway, would I shoot them? I'd like to think that I would NOT.
I am willing to take a life if I HAVE to in order to defend myself or someone I love, but not for the sake of STUFF.
Banned
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 30
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the person driving the jeep could have been killed(eggs on the winsheild lost controle etc etc)BUT killing the kid is NOT what i would do.a butt kickin (one where you cant sit right for a week seriously a week) is what that little edit needs.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,457
Likes: 95
From: KENTUCKY
I will relate an event that I witnessed in 1975, when I was a mere 14 years old.
I was riding in the back seat of a brand new 1975 Pontiac Grand Prix.
My mother and father were in the front.
We were traveling on a brand new four-lane parkway, following a hot-blooded gentleman driving a nearly new Ford pickup, with one of those aluminum toppers that had those blue-colored windows.
There was an overpass that carried a remote gravel road across the parkway.
That gravel road was straight, in both directions, for almost a mile, with nothing but wide open fields on both sides.
When we went under the overpass, about a dozen plastic milk-jugs full of water came falling on our vehicles.
One smashed into the hood of the Ford truck, with a couple others hitting the topper, causing huge dents and knocking out one side-glass.
A couple hit the long hood of our Grand Prix, making big dents and cracking the windshield.
That old man, in the Ford, slid to the shoulder of the road, jumped out, vaulted over the fence, ran up the embankment, and commenced throwing lead at about a dozen teenage boys running for their lives down that long open straight stretch of gravel road.
If he hit anyone, they never slowed.
He was shooting a little old .38 Special revolver; I often wonder of the outcome if he had been properly armed with a good lever-gun.
One thing for sure, I bet those punks thought long and hard before they pulled a stunt like that again.
The lesson stuck with me, and I was only an innocent witness.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 213
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From: Ca.
Yes I do..
My step-son is in his mid 20's. Self employed tile,stone and marble setter. High end custom home kind..... and yes, I'm quite proud of him.
My daughter is 17, a senior in high school. She just qualified as a nursing assistant. She's also taken an early enlistment in the USMC. Very proud of her.
Although none of us are anywhere near perfect, they know the difference between right and wrong. They respect other people as well as their property. They know not to lie, steal, or hurt another human. But most of all, they know to stand up for what they feel is right. To avoid a confrontation if possible. To never be the one to take the first swing. And should they be in a situation where they are backed up against a wall and there is no other way out, go for the nuts then punt their face like a football. When you need to defend yourself, you use and do whatever it takes to keep yourself from harm. When my daughter was assaulted in the 10th grade, she did just that. Protecting herself got her suspended. So what. The school security wasn't going to help her. She defended herself and had my blessing. Yeah, I'm proud of her. The punk that thought he could cop a feel went to Juvenal hall. He had assaulted many, but my kid was the only one to speak out.
As with any kid, they do sometimes get into trouble. But never do they violate anyone else. They know better!
My step-son is in his mid 20's. Self employed tile,stone and marble setter. High end custom home kind..... and yes, I'm quite proud of him.
My daughter is 17, a senior in high school. She just qualified as a nursing assistant. She's also taken an early enlistment in the USMC. Very proud of her.
Although none of us are anywhere near perfect, they know the difference between right and wrong. They respect other people as well as their property. They know not to lie, steal, or hurt another human. But most of all, they know to stand up for what they feel is right. To avoid a confrontation if possible. To never be the one to take the first swing. And should they be in a situation where they are backed up against a wall and there is no other way out, go for the nuts then punt their face like a football. When you need to defend yourself, you use and do whatever it takes to keep yourself from harm. When my daughter was assaulted in the 10th grade, she did just that. Protecting herself got her suspended. So what. The school security wasn't going to help her. She defended herself and had my blessing. Yeah, I'm proud of her. The punk that thought he could cop a feel went to Juvenal hall. He had assaulted many, but my kid was the only one to speak out.
As with any kid, they do sometimes get into trouble. But never do they violate anyone else. They know better!
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,578
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From: Charleston SC
got a Q? for you guys?
some kids threw a HUGE rock ~6 months ago into the side of my truck.
hit right on the groove / ridge where the bodyside molding runs, made 2 nice dents, about pencil eraser sized, on either side of the groove.
it really upset me. what should i have done?
its hard to keep your composure when the whole world around you wants to "bully" you everyday. you want to strike out at that one person who is the pinnacle of the stress you felt that day. (think about traffic)
even if i do shoot the punks who walk past my house every day, the other 9 million punks won't KNOW that i shot the other punks, and it won't change my fear of their ability to break into my house while i am work. all i can do is pray for God to protect my possessions.
FWIW, i would say the guy doing the shooting (i think it was a passenger in the jeep, not the driver) sounded like a kid with a gun, a 'gang banger' or whatever.
would an adult really follow him off the road?
some kids threw a HUGE rock ~6 months ago into the side of my truck.
hit right on the groove / ridge where the bodyside molding runs, made 2 nice dents, about pencil eraser sized, on either side of the groove.
it really upset me. what should i have done?
its hard to keep your composure when the whole world around you wants to "bully" you everyday. you want to strike out at that one person who is the pinnacle of the stress you felt that day. (think about traffic)
even if i do shoot the punks who walk past my house every day, the other 9 million punks won't KNOW that i shot the other punks, and it won't change my fear of their ability to break into my house while i am work. all i can do is pray for God to protect my possessions.
FWIW, i would say the guy doing the shooting (i think it was a passenger in the jeep, not the driver) sounded like a kid with a gun, a 'gang banger' or whatever.
would an adult really follow him off the road?
Banned
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
From: Ca.
Back to the shooter, sure he made a really bad choice. I'm not saying that killing someone for egging your truck is ok. It's not. But it sure sends out one heck of a message to the next kid. Now, shooting some kid for doing something dumb is not normal human behavior. Did something in this guys head snap? Who knows what state of mind he was in, or what issues he had been dealing with. The egg was the straw that broke the camels back. The shooter reacted......in a bad way. For every action there is a reaction. If the kid would have been doing homework, or chores, or anything else...this would have never happened. In this case, everyone looses.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,007
Likes: 0
From: Albuquerque, NM
got a Q? for you guys?
some kids threw a HUGE rock ~6 months ago into the side of my truck.
hit right on the groove / ridge where the bodyside molding runs, made 2 nice dents, about pencil eraser sized, on either side of the groove.
it really upset me. what should i have done?
its hard to keep your composure when the whole world around you wants to "bully" you everyday. you want to strike out at that one person who is the pinnacle of the stress you felt that day. (think about traffic)
even if i do shoot the punks who walk past my house every day, the other 9 million punks won't KNOW that i shot the other punks, and it won't change my fear of their ability to break into my house while i am work. all i can do is pray for God to protect my possessions.
FWIW, i would say the guy doing the shooting (i think it was a passenger in the jeep, not the driver) sounded like a kid with a gun, a 'gang banger' or whatever.
would an adult really follow him off the road?
some kids threw a HUGE rock ~6 months ago into the side of my truck.
hit right on the groove / ridge where the bodyside molding runs, made 2 nice dents, about pencil eraser sized, on either side of the groove.
it really upset me. what should i have done?
its hard to keep your composure when the whole world around you wants to "bully" you everyday. you want to strike out at that one person who is the pinnacle of the stress you felt that day. (think about traffic)
even if i do shoot the punks who walk past my house every day, the other 9 million punks won't KNOW that i shot the other punks, and it won't change my fear of their ability to break into my house while i am work. all i can do is pray for God to protect my possessions.
FWIW, i would say the guy doing the shooting (i think it was a passenger in the jeep, not the driver) sounded like a kid with a gun, a 'gang banger' or whatever.
would an adult really follow him off the road?
Unfortunately, you probably have more to lose than they do. They know what you drive and where you live. They probably know what your wife and or kids drive as well.
And if they want, they can learn your schedule and kick down your front door when you’re at work and really mess with you.
So do you go after them, when they may have the upper hand on you? Or just walk away with your tail between your legs? Things that make you go “Hmmm”.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
From: AZ
All just my opinion, of course, and it is not in defense of protecting property, but protecting life.
"That's what him and his boys was up to — having fun doing what they do."
"It was after midnight when the shooting happened. The teens were on a lighted church parking lot where it was common for kids to play basketball or roller-skate, and adults were nearby"
I don't know about you, but where I was raised we didn't meet up in a church parking lot after midnight, with ADULTS present, and start vandalizing cars.
"At some point, police say, the boys began lobbing the eggs at cars along a busy four-lane city stretch of U.S. 40"
ANYTHING being thrown at a moving vehicle in my opinion is attempted murder. It makes it even worse that its a BUSY road.
I know everyone here is against shooting over property, but in this case its not just property. You are in a 4,000 pound weapon. If your vision is blocked, or you are purposely distracted, you can very well kill yourself or another person.
Those boys had no regard for safety. This was not the egging of a parked vehicle. It was egging of moving vehicles on a busy highway THROUGH a town.
How would it have played if an egg hit the windshield and they veered off the highway and hit someone?
To make matters worse, adults were present and obviously did not prevent the situation.
Its sad that it ended in a death, but let it be a lesson of instant Karma and bad child supervision.
You put someone elses life in danger, it WILL come back and bite you. It just happened to bite these kids faster than usual.
"That's what him and his boys was up to — having fun doing what they do."
"It was after midnight when the shooting happened. The teens were on a lighted church parking lot where it was common for kids to play basketball or roller-skate, and adults were nearby"
I don't know about you, but where I was raised we didn't meet up in a church parking lot after midnight, with ADULTS present, and start vandalizing cars.
"At some point, police say, the boys began lobbing the eggs at cars along a busy four-lane city stretch of U.S. 40"
ANYTHING being thrown at a moving vehicle in my opinion is attempted murder. It makes it even worse that its a BUSY road.
I know everyone here is against shooting over property, but in this case its not just property. You are in a 4,000 pound weapon. If your vision is blocked, or you are purposely distracted, you can very well kill yourself or another person.
Those boys had no regard for safety. This was not the egging of a parked vehicle. It was egging of moving vehicles on a busy highway THROUGH a town.
How would it have played if an egg hit the windshield and they veered off the highway and hit someone?
To make matters worse, adults were present and obviously did not prevent the situation.
Its sad that it ended in a death, but let it be a lesson of instant Karma and bad child supervision.
You put someone elses life in danger, it WILL come back and bite you. It just happened to bite these kids faster than usual.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
That would be “False imprisonment” for holding a juvenile at gunpoint for throwing eggs at your truck. The police may not arrest you for doing it, but the DA’s office has the final say. Then the little punk and his welfare parents will end up suing you for “violating his civil rights”.
As law-abiding citizens, we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place.
As law-abiding citizens, we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Would not be False Imprisonment... Every citizen has a right to arrest someone... Because he threw an egg at the truck and damaged the truck he committed the crime of Vandalism.. If the damage was over $400.00 (at least here in California).. it is a Felony.. Holding a person for the police after a crime is not FALSE Imprisonment.. You may even use the force necessary to effect the arrest should they try and flee..
Another thought... There are also specific laws against throwing objects at moving vehicles.. And should an accident have happened the 14 year old could have been brought up on manslaughter, murder had someone died or a variety of related attempted Crimes..
Now I don't condone killing anyone after the fact.. but holding them for the police.. sure... if they struggle well then you have to do what you have to do..
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