Gotta love those Democrats .....
09-12-2004, 03:52 PM
#32
It's my pot and I'll stir it if I want to. If you're not careful, I'll stir your's as well!
Hey guys, go easy! This is an interesting thread so let's not get too personal and insulting and get the thread locked. We all have our opinions. I know mine is is right so therefore yours is ?????
Seriously tho, there is no way we can all agree on who is right or wrong, or who will be the next 'best' leader for the USA, so let us continue to debate this in a civil way until the voters decide for you in a couple of months. As I have stated many times in the past, let's agree to disagree agreeably. OK?
Seriously tho, there is no way we can all agree on who is right or wrong, or who will be the next 'best' leader for the USA, so let us continue to debate this in a civil way until the voters decide for you in a couple of months. As I have stated many times in the past, let's agree to disagree agreeably. OK?
09-12-2004, 05:25 PM
#33
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Originally posted by Lary Ellis (Top)
Yeah you have lots of rhetoric there, however your facts seem to be missing in action
Yeah you have lots of rhetoric there, however your facts seem to be missing in action
09-12-2004, 05:42 PM
#34
Originally posted by smiller
Please let us know which facts in CrusingRam's post are incorrect.
Please let us know which facts in CrusingRam's post are incorrect.
09-12-2004, 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by Lary Ellis (Top)
You must have misread my post, I only see rhetoric and hence my comment that the FACTS are missing. I can't comment on something that obviously isn't there
You must have misread my post, I only see rhetoric and hence my comment that the FACTS are missing. I can't comment on something that obviously isn't there
But in saying that you only see rhetoric without facts are you also saying that Bush did not change his position on many of the items listed in CrusingRam's post?
09-12-2004, 06:11 PM
#36
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Originally posted by Equalizer 2
Gotta love that out of context stuff. Where would the media be without it?
Gotta love that out of context stuff. Where would the media be without it?
The OBL, homeland security, WMD comments were absolutely NOT out of context- he meant exactly what he said, and then "flip flopped" LOL
09-13-2004, 07:18 AM
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It is funny how two people can witness a action, accident, sporting event or whatever, & come to different conclusions.
I guess the statement made by GWB that "The war on terrorism could not be won" went on that flip flop you are speaking of.
I heard him say this in a interview myself, I interperpeted this to mean that terriorism will never be completely eliminated on a global scale. We can eliminate one cell but another will surface in a different area.
The media reported and I heard the statement from news host Katie Corrick that Bush had admitted we cannot win the war in Iraq. Glad I have my own ears and heard GWB live & not just the reported spin.
Now look at a broader picture and let's see what comes of the situation with KOREA and the so called demoliton & forest fire with reported 2 mile mushroom cloud.
I am interested in the Democratic & Republican reply to a renewed threat of a know member of THE AXIS OF EVIL..
As an American our way of life & freedom are always under attack.
I am sure that if things got tough we would all shoulder up as we have done in the past.
Hot off the press Katie Kellys book on the Bush family, I am sure that will be good reading, not slanted & full of facts. I like reading the National Inquirer for humor also the facts
I guess the statement made by GWB that "The war on terrorism could not be won" went on that flip flop you are speaking of.
I heard him say this in a interview myself, I interperpeted this to mean that terriorism will never be completely eliminated on a global scale. We can eliminate one cell but another will surface in a different area.
The media reported and I heard the statement from news host Katie Corrick that Bush had admitted we cannot win the war in Iraq. Glad I have my own ears and heard GWB live & not just the reported spin.
Now look at a broader picture and let's see what comes of the situation with KOREA and the so called demoliton & forest fire with reported 2 mile mushroom cloud.
I am interested in the Democratic & Republican reply to a renewed threat of a know member of THE AXIS OF EVIL..
As an American our way of life & freedom are always under attack.
I am sure that if things got tough we would all shoulder up as we have done in the past.
Hot off the press Katie Kellys book on the Bush family, I am sure that will be good reading, not slanted & full of facts. I like reading the National Inquirer for humor also the facts
09-13-2004, 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by CruisingRam
Once again- I am confused as to which is the Flip flopper-
Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.
Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.
Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's
against them again.
Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian
conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for
changing the constitution.
Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire,
police, emergency), then he doesn't.
Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits
Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden.
Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't
care.
Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts
drilling on Padre Island.
Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.
Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will
Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.
Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to
sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would
not call for a vote
Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors.
Bush later admits it was his advance team.
Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the
US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.
Bush said he would appoint a czar to create manufacturing jobs. He never did it.
Bush was against amnesty for illegal aliens. Now he's for it.
Bush was against Presidents doing an end run around Congress to pack
the courts. Then he did it.
Bush gave million dollar Iraq contracts to Halliburton without making
sure they wouldn't overcharge us. Now he's investigating them for
overcharging.
Bush told people global warming isn't a threat. Now his Defense Dept
says it can end civilization in 25 years.
Bush promised to end the tax cuts after a few years. Then he made them permanent.
Bush said we shouldn't fight two wars at once. Then he sent troops to
Haiti while Americans are dying in Iraq.
Bush was for the rebels in Haiti trying to bring down Aristide. Now
he's fighting the rebels.
Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]
...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]
BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]
...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]
BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]
...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]
BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]
...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]
BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]
...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]
I have hundreds more- you want them?
Once again- I am confused as to which is the Flip flopper-
Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.
Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.
Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's
against them again.
Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian
conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for
changing the constitution.
Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire,
police, emergency), then he doesn't.
Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits
Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden.
Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't
care.
Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts
drilling on Padre Island.
Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.
Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will
Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.
Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to
sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would
not call for a vote
Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors.
Bush later admits it was his advance team.
Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the
US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.
Bush said he would appoint a czar to create manufacturing jobs. He never did it.
Bush was against amnesty for illegal aliens. Now he's for it.
Bush was against Presidents doing an end run around Congress to pack
the courts. Then he did it.
Bush gave million dollar Iraq contracts to Halliburton without making
sure they wouldn't overcharge us. Now he's investigating them for
overcharging.
Bush told people global warming isn't a threat. Now his Defense Dept
says it can end civilization in 25 years.
Bush promised to end the tax cuts after a few years. Then he made them permanent.
Bush said we shouldn't fight two wars at once. Then he sent troops to
Haiti while Americans are dying in Iraq.
Bush was for the rebels in Haiti trying to bring down Aristide. Now
he's fighting the rebels.
Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]
...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]
BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]
...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]
BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]
...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]
BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]
...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]
BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]
...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]
I have hundreds more- you want them?
09-13-2004, 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by LRAmberson
IThe media reported and I heard the statement from news host Katie Corrick that Bush had admitted we cannot win the war in Iraq. Glad I have my own ears and heard GWB live & not just the reported spin.
IThe media reported and I heard the statement from news host Katie Corrick that Bush had admitted we cannot win the war in Iraq. Glad I have my own ears and heard GWB live & not just the reported spin.
09-13-2004, 02:13 PM
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Well, funny how this thread has died down now that the shoe is on the other foot...
Crickets...
In spite of statements that the Bush flip-flops somehow aren't 'fact' we haven't seen anyone willing to step up and say say that Bush didn't change his position on many, many issues. Of course he did, that much at least is simple fact. But I'm not necessarily faulting him in changing his mind because in some cases he may have had good reason to 'flip flop', and changing your mind is not always wrong... in fact remaining stubborn when a change is warranted is a rather foolish thing to do, whether you're a republican or democrat.
The only thing here that is wrong is the transparent partisan rhetoric that implies that anytime Kerry changes his mind it's a 'flip flop' but when Bush changes his mind it's... OK. If you are going to have a 'discussion' on this topic and want to have any credibility at all at least be intellectually honest enough to try to be objective.
Crickets...
In spite of statements that the Bush flip-flops somehow aren't 'fact' we haven't seen anyone willing to step up and say say that Bush didn't change his position on many, many issues. Of course he did, that much at least is simple fact. But I'm not necessarily faulting him in changing his mind because in some cases he may have had good reason to 'flip flop', and changing your mind is not always wrong... in fact remaining stubborn when a change is warranted is a rather foolish thing to do, whether you're a republican or democrat.
The only thing here that is wrong is the transparent partisan rhetoric that implies that anytime Kerry changes his mind it's a 'flip flop' but when Bush changes his mind it's... OK. If you are going to have a 'discussion' on this topic and want to have any credibility at all at least be intellectually honest enough to try to be objective.
09-13-2004, 03:30 PM
#42
It's my pot and I'll stir it if I want to. If you're not careful, I'll stir your's as well!
Have just come across a story which I have copied and pasted here in case it is of interest to anyone:
------------------------------------------------------------
Not A Forgery: Kerry's 1984 Weapons Hit List
Powerline Blog published a 1984 press release from John Kerry's senate campaign Page 1 Page 2 in which Kerry's stance on defense is clear.
This press release is especially interesting because (a) Kerry is running on building a "stronger America" and (b) the Kerry campaign has denied that he opposed many of the weapon systems he has been accused of opposing but rather opposed only entire defense appropriations bills.
In that document, candidate Kerry calls for reducing the Reagan defense buildup by some $50 billion by making cuts to specific weapons systems. Let's analyze the list of weapons that John Kerry wanted to cancel back in 1984:
• MX ICBM . This modern ballistic missile served as one of the backbones of the U.S. nuclear deterrent triad during the Cold War--a strategic force that eventually played a large roll in the defeat of the Soviet Union.
• B-1 Bomber . Also a major system in the nuclear triad, the B-1 went on to play a key role as a long-range, all-weather, heavy, precision bomber in Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom. The B-1's range and huge payload capacity were especially important given the lack of basing rights in the region for both campaigns.
• Anti-Satellite System (ASAT) . This system was a missile designed to be carried by an F-15 interceptor to a very high altitude and then launched into the atmosphere to shoot down enemy satellites. Unfortunately, the ASAT was indeed shelved due to budget constraints. Now we are learning more every day that Red China is working on systems to shoot down satellites and rogue nations, such as Iran and North Korea, have satellite programs. The ASAT capability would be quite useful.
• Star Wars . Probably no weapon system had greater impact on the Cold War's outcome in the 1980s than Star Wars, or SDI, the Strategic Defense Initiative. It was designed to provide America with a defense against incoming ballistic missiles. Leftist opposition to the program just about killed the whole concept, but its heart kept beating ever so feintly and now we are close to deploying national missile defense. Of course, had the left not opposed the program from its outset, we would surely already have a defense against incoming ballistic missiles from countries like Iran and North Korea. As we stand now, we are completely defenseless against missile attack.
• Tomahawk missile . I guess Kerry should get partial credit here. He only advocated cutting funding for the Tomahawk by 50%. That may have been very damaging though since the Tomahawk is probably the most widely used weapon against terrorists and rogue nations over the past dozen years or so. The Tomahawk played a key role in Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom, as well as a few other military operations in the Balkans, Africa and the Middle East.
• AH-64 Apache attack helicopter . The Apache is the most modern attack helicopter in the world. Apaches fired the first shots in Operation Desert Storm and have played key roles in Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom. John Kerry wanted to cancel the Apache program.
• DIVAD system . The DIVAD air defense system was designed to protect U.S. ground forces from the Soviet Mi-24 Hind attack helicopter, which was much feared and widely used by communist forces in 1984. The DIVAD was basically a radar-directed twin 40mm turret mounted on an old M-48 Patton tank chassis. The system was cancelled after performing poorly in numerous tests and experiencing cost overruns. Kerry may have actually been right about this one...pure dumb luck.
• Patriot Air Defense Missile . No weapon system symbolizes John Kerry's horrible record on national defense more than the Patriot, which he sought to cancel in 1984. Seven years later, Patriots were saving lives in Desert Storm by shooting down Iraqi SCUD ballistic missiles. They repeated that role in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Today the Patriot is the most modern air defense system in the world and in use in South Korea, Japan, several parts of Europe, Israel, and other places in the Middle East. No thanks to John Kerry.
• AEGIS guided missile cruiser . The AEGIS air defense system-equipped guided missile cruisers form the backbone of the U.S. fleet. They have proven instrumental in everything from air and missile defense to drug interdiction. They have also played a key role in operational evolutions in launching cruise missile attacks on rogue nations and terrorist bases.
• Iowa-class Battleship Reactivations . Seldom in the history of warfare has a naval fleet gotten so much bang for the buck as the U.S. Navy got for the modernization and reactivation of the USS New Jersey, USS Iowa, USS Wisconsin and USS Missouri. For the cost of a frigate, the U.S. Navy got a magnificent capital ship able to dominate the seas and land for hundreds of miles around. These vessels played a key role in the Cold War and also in operations from Beirut in 1983-84 to Operation Desert Storm in 1991. On what basis John Kerry opposed the reactivation of the Iowa-class battleships truly pro-U.S. security people may never know.
• AV-8B Harrier . The Harrier is the world's only operational V/TOL (vertical take off and landing) combat jet. It is the key player in Marine aviation and close air support and played a major role in support of our troops in Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom, saving the lives of Americans on the front lines.
• F-15 Eagle . The F-15 has been the world's foremost fighter aircraft since it entered service in the late 1970s. It guarded the skies as part of NORAD in the Cold War and did so again after 9-11. In between the F-15 ensured air superiority in virtually every major military operation in which the U.S. was involved.
• F-14A/D Tomcat . The F-14, only now being replaced by the new F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, is the world's premier naval fighter. It was essential to the protection of the U.S. fleet during the Cold War from the mid-1970s on. F-14s twice shot down Libyan interceptors over international waters during the 1980s and later versions became outstanding all weather precision attack aircraft. In fact, for much of Operation Enduring Freedom, the F-14 provided the entire precision guided attack capability of the U.S. military as basing rights were hard to come by for land based aircraft and the F/A-18C/D Hornet lacked the range and endurance necessary to perform the mission over Afghanistan. Another great airplane that John Kerry wanted to shoot down on Capitol hill.
• AIM-54 Phoenix air to air missile . This long range missile was carried exclusively by the F-14 and could bring down targets as far as 110 nautical miles away flying just above sea level or as high as 60,000 feet. Of course, since John Kerry sought to kill the F-14, it only made sense that he should seek to rid our military of its key weapon as well.
• AIM-7 Sparrow air to air missile . The Sparrow was the chief radar guided air to air missile in the U.S. inventory from the 1950s until the relatively recent introduction of the AIM-120 AMRAAM. The Sparrow was the main armament of the F-15, F-16 and F-18 and the secondary armament of the F-14. One wonders what Kerry thought we would have armed our fighter aircraft with had he gotten his way and the Sparrow was cancelled?
This list shows that no area of our national defense was safe from John Kerry. He has fought equally hard on Capitol Hill against the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines over the course of his entire career. We can only shudder to think what would have happened had he won the day and all of these key weapons had been cancelled.
Next time you see a sign that says, "Kerry for a stronger America," you may want to stop and think about all these tools in the hands of our servicemen and women that would not have been procured and deployed had John Kerry gotten his way.
World Tribune
Christopher Holton
------------------------------------------------------------
Not A Forgery: Kerry's 1984 Weapons Hit List
Powerline Blog published a 1984 press release from John Kerry's senate campaign Page 1 Page 2 in which Kerry's stance on defense is clear.
This press release is especially interesting because (a) Kerry is running on building a "stronger America" and (b) the Kerry campaign has denied that he opposed many of the weapon systems he has been accused of opposing but rather opposed only entire defense appropriations bills.
In that document, candidate Kerry calls for reducing the Reagan defense buildup by some $50 billion by making cuts to specific weapons systems. Let's analyze the list of weapons that John Kerry wanted to cancel back in 1984:
• MX ICBM . This modern ballistic missile served as one of the backbones of the U.S. nuclear deterrent triad during the Cold War--a strategic force that eventually played a large roll in the defeat of the Soviet Union.
• B-1 Bomber . Also a major system in the nuclear triad, the B-1 went on to play a key role as a long-range, all-weather, heavy, precision bomber in Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom. The B-1's range and huge payload capacity were especially important given the lack of basing rights in the region for both campaigns.
• Anti-Satellite System (ASAT) . This system was a missile designed to be carried by an F-15 interceptor to a very high altitude and then launched into the atmosphere to shoot down enemy satellites. Unfortunately, the ASAT was indeed shelved due to budget constraints. Now we are learning more every day that Red China is working on systems to shoot down satellites and rogue nations, such as Iran and North Korea, have satellite programs. The ASAT capability would be quite useful.
• Star Wars . Probably no weapon system had greater impact on the Cold War's outcome in the 1980s than Star Wars, or SDI, the Strategic Defense Initiative. It was designed to provide America with a defense against incoming ballistic missiles. Leftist opposition to the program just about killed the whole concept, but its heart kept beating ever so feintly and now we are close to deploying national missile defense. Of course, had the left not opposed the program from its outset, we would surely already have a defense against incoming ballistic missiles from countries like Iran and North Korea. As we stand now, we are completely defenseless against missile attack.
• Tomahawk missile . I guess Kerry should get partial credit here. He only advocated cutting funding for the Tomahawk by 50%. That may have been very damaging though since the Tomahawk is probably the most widely used weapon against terrorists and rogue nations over the past dozen years or so. The Tomahawk played a key role in Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom, as well as a few other military operations in the Balkans, Africa and the Middle East.
• AH-64 Apache attack helicopter . The Apache is the most modern attack helicopter in the world. Apaches fired the first shots in Operation Desert Storm and have played key roles in Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom. John Kerry wanted to cancel the Apache program.
• DIVAD system . The DIVAD air defense system was designed to protect U.S. ground forces from the Soviet Mi-24 Hind attack helicopter, which was much feared and widely used by communist forces in 1984. The DIVAD was basically a radar-directed twin 40mm turret mounted on an old M-48 Patton tank chassis. The system was cancelled after performing poorly in numerous tests and experiencing cost overruns. Kerry may have actually been right about this one...pure dumb luck.
• Patriot Air Defense Missile . No weapon system symbolizes John Kerry's horrible record on national defense more than the Patriot, which he sought to cancel in 1984. Seven years later, Patriots were saving lives in Desert Storm by shooting down Iraqi SCUD ballistic missiles. They repeated that role in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Today the Patriot is the most modern air defense system in the world and in use in South Korea, Japan, several parts of Europe, Israel, and other places in the Middle East. No thanks to John Kerry.
• AEGIS guided missile cruiser . The AEGIS air defense system-equipped guided missile cruisers form the backbone of the U.S. fleet. They have proven instrumental in everything from air and missile defense to drug interdiction. They have also played a key role in operational evolutions in launching cruise missile attacks on rogue nations and terrorist bases.
• Iowa-class Battleship Reactivations . Seldom in the history of warfare has a naval fleet gotten so much bang for the buck as the U.S. Navy got for the modernization and reactivation of the USS New Jersey, USS Iowa, USS Wisconsin and USS Missouri. For the cost of a frigate, the U.S. Navy got a magnificent capital ship able to dominate the seas and land for hundreds of miles around. These vessels played a key role in the Cold War and also in operations from Beirut in 1983-84 to Operation Desert Storm in 1991. On what basis John Kerry opposed the reactivation of the Iowa-class battleships truly pro-U.S. security people may never know.
• AV-8B Harrier . The Harrier is the world's only operational V/TOL (vertical take off and landing) combat jet. It is the key player in Marine aviation and close air support and played a major role in support of our troops in Desert Storm, Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom, saving the lives of Americans on the front lines.
• F-15 Eagle . The F-15 has been the world's foremost fighter aircraft since it entered service in the late 1970s. It guarded the skies as part of NORAD in the Cold War and did so again after 9-11. In between the F-15 ensured air superiority in virtually every major military operation in which the U.S. was involved.
• F-14A/D Tomcat . The F-14, only now being replaced by the new F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, is the world's premier naval fighter. It was essential to the protection of the U.S. fleet during the Cold War from the mid-1970s on. F-14s twice shot down Libyan interceptors over international waters during the 1980s and later versions became outstanding all weather precision attack aircraft. In fact, for much of Operation Enduring Freedom, the F-14 provided the entire precision guided attack capability of the U.S. military as basing rights were hard to come by for land based aircraft and the F/A-18C/D Hornet lacked the range and endurance necessary to perform the mission over Afghanistan. Another great airplane that John Kerry wanted to shoot down on Capitol hill.
• AIM-54 Phoenix air to air missile . This long range missile was carried exclusively by the F-14 and could bring down targets as far as 110 nautical miles away flying just above sea level or as high as 60,000 feet. Of course, since John Kerry sought to kill the F-14, it only made sense that he should seek to rid our military of its key weapon as well.
• AIM-7 Sparrow air to air missile . The Sparrow was the chief radar guided air to air missile in the U.S. inventory from the 1950s until the relatively recent introduction of the AIM-120 AMRAAM. The Sparrow was the main armament of the F-15, F-16 and F-18 and the secondary armament of the F-14. One wonders what Kerry thought we would have armed our fighter aircraft with had he gotten his way and the Sparrow was cancelled?
This list shows that no area of our national defense was safe from John Kerry. He has fought equally hard on Capitol Hill against the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines over the course of his entire career. We can only shudder to think what would have happened had he won the day and all of these key weapons had been cancelled.
Next time you see a sign that says, "Kerry for a stronger America," you may want to stop and think about all these tools in the hands of our servicemen and women that would not have been procured and deployed had John Kerry gotten his way.
World Tribune
Christopher Holton
09-13-2004, 03:51 PM
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Well, since any kind of real, objective discussion here is obviously out of the question we might as well just kid around...
Yeah, right. Very close.
and taking lives by shooting down friendly aircraft, one American and one British. 
... and now we are close to deploying national missile defense.
Seven years later, Patriots were saving lives in Desert Storm by shooting down Iraqi SCUD ballistic missiles...
09-13-2004, 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by ramlovingvet
We were letting you guys babble a while while you try to come up with answers to the original post.
We were letting you guys babble a while while you try to come up with answers to the original post.
Also, we have learned that Bush has flip-flopped his position more in his fours years in office than Kerry has in his entire Senate career.
See what interesting things we have discovered in this thread? I learn so much from you guys...
09-13-2004, 04:15 PM
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Hello, Stan,
Could you post the link to the blog? It almost looks identical to Miller's speach at the RNC and to the list of weapons systems that the VP wanted cut for the first Bush admin. as part of budget cuts. What a coincidence! Imagine that!
Could you post the link to the blog? It almost looks identical to Miller's speach at the RNC and to the list of weapons systems that the VP wanted cut for the first Bush admin. as part of budget cuts. What a coincidence! Imagine that!