FiverBob

I think the point being made is fairly simple. Our founding fathers put into our constitution a simple fact - - that they had a firm faith in God, they intended this country to embrace that basic belief. At the same time, they opened the door for others to believe however they want. There would be no "state church" as it was in England and one of the reasons they were leaving their home country was the intrusion of the government in THAT particular church.

Our basic foundation is one of a belief in God - - that is not to be discussed according to the founders. My argument is when people tell me they wish to discuss removing all referrence to God because it offends them. Fine, move to some country where they don't mention God, because my country is founded on that belief - - it is my constitutional right.

It is interesting what history has shown about civilizations choosing right from wrong. History has shown that citizens choose right based on two things: either the government is so dictatorial they make them act as decent citizens, or they have a strong faith in God that lays out right and wrong. The debacle in Russia in our recent time was a vivid example of that principle. The government was highly dictatorial and kept the citizens in line - - God was basically outlawed from their society. When the government tumbled and the iron hand became clay, the citizens went crazy due to the vacuum. Slowly, the government has come back into some control, but people that know a lot more than I do are saying their biggest saving factor has been a new recognition in the society of God and His morals and principles. Now don't shoot the messenger - - only repeating what I have been studying.

I have a strong feeling that one of the problems in our country right now is we, as a nation, are turning our back on God, forgetting our roots, but our governing principles do not allow the government to step in with the iron fist and demand the following of moral rules. Hence, we are falling apart. I do not want the rules, believe me, but we sure need to look at the facts and see the road we are travelling is not a very nice one. We are deteriorating from the inside out and it scares the pidaddle (is that a word?) out of me for the sake of my kids and grandkids. God, save our nation - - help us to turn our eyes back to You.

Lary Ellis (Top)

Thanks guys for stating your opinions as gentlemen, and not as lecturers. Most threads of this nature have been shut down because they inherently turn to mud slinging.

I see wonderful points raised here by everyone, and I truly hope it continues in this direction. Good food for thought, from all parties when it remains peaceful

natstayl

AlpineRam wrote;

Hi Markus. With all due respect, I see what you're saying and I couldn't disagree with you more. On the contrary, to us who believe in one true God, the God that led the 12 tribes by fire at night and by a cloud during the day, is the same God who lives in heaven today. For reasons I don't (yet) understand other than it pleased Him, God sent a sacrifice once and for all unto mankind to all of us, perfect, blameless, His son, Jesus. Jesus chose to die and on the third day rose again proving once and for all, he was, and is, the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. Jesus himself said we must believe in him to have eternal life and also said immediately after, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." All one has to do is believe Jesus is who he said he is and can do what he said he would do. See John chapter 3 of the Bible. Perhaps this is hard to believe, it is for many, but Christians know that when we humbly ask God to clean out the garbage (the Bible calls the garbage Sin) and renew in us his love in His son Jesus' name, something wonderful happens.
Nat

DPG

Wow! It makes me want to move to Georgia so that I could vote for this gentleman. I agree with everything that he said. The courts have distorted the meaning of the First Amendment.

DeWain

aklabs

Opening up the Constitution is a very scary thought. The way this country is being run by the folks back in DC they would find a way to completely screw everything up and we would end up in a police state. They would reinterpt/rewrite the greatest document that has ever been written. No thanks. IMHO, the fastest way to reverse the downward spiral is to turn off the music, tv, video games that offend us. It will take generations to do so. It would have to start with the parents. Will it ever happen? No. I pray I will be long gone by the time the bottom really falls out. These times are starting to scare me something bad.

Dawna

jfpointer

Notice that I'm not saying you *can't* base a moral framework on religion, merely that it's not necessary to do so. If you do so, however, sooner or later you're likely to find yourself in a philosophical blind alley, so to speak. From a logical standpoint, it leads to the tautology of "Is a particular action right because God likes it, or does God like a particular action because it's right?" There are, however, other ways of judging the rightness of an action.

I don't think Christian ethics or morals are bad, and it might surprise you that in fact I agree with large portions of your analysis of the current situation. I just see some different sources for the problems and would use different arguments against them.

AlpineRAM

natstayl: I will keep my religious beliefs to myself, especially on an internet forum. This is because I choose to do so, and I respect everybody who wants to word his or her beliefs in a public place.
Being European, and having studied quite some part of the history of chriistian religion based societies, my opinion is that where state reason is allowed to use the name of god the first thing to be smashed are moral basics. Look at the history of the crusades. In my opinion lots of the most cruel things in history happened in the name of god- not in the spirit that is in the holy scriptures of this religion, the name of god was simply taken as an explanation/excuse for any atrocity and injustice inflicted by the mighty of these societies. In my opinion a society composed of firm believers in christ, who do really follow the moral rules set out in christianity (but also in several other religions!), will be of high moral standards, and will not necessarily need to name god in any political document. It will work just as well without the name of god in the constitution. On the other hand a society that declares itself as god given, but consisting of people who do not live up to the said moral standards will not only be injust, inhumane etc, but will be like that in the name of god. The danger is that people tend to get god out of their hearts and minds to simply follow the set out procedures, going through the motions of prayer and service like machines and with a fundamental disregard of the values that should be there.
I think that we must be realistic- neither the USA nor Austria are inhabited only by people who do act upon the moral standards set out in the bible. (Else we wouldn't need laws, armies etc)
I think that politics should try to form an environment for the real people that live in these states. And let them live together following these moral standards.
To summarize- IMHO the true believer doesn't need god in a constitution, he/she carries him within the heart, and all others would just use the three letters "g" and "o" and "d" as a magic potion to auto-justify and auto-absolve everything they do, be it good or evil.

AlpineRAM

blackjack

The founding of a country such as the U.S. is complex beyond the words that convey the intent. However the vehicle's such as the constitution are still subjective to far to much interpretations as to their true meaning.

As many of us tend to bend and manipulate these words we finally build these documents into a shield that we can hide behind no matter how closely our morals and ideas may align with those who wrote them.

If the intent of the amendments of the constitution are ones-that are unwavering of interpretation no matter what our convictions, Then how can we so readily drop the very clear wording of our pledge of allegiance and strike as offending "one nation under GOD" from it's content. When I read the constitution I sometimes have to grapple with the meaning. When I read the words One Nation Under God I am as clear as a bell.
The words of the constitution were written at a time when rap, T.V. , computers, etc...could not be conceived yet we find within these documents words from our forefathers as to how we may use these medias no matter how offensive they may be to our neighbors and fellow countrymen and yet in the same reverence we treat words about God as something those founding fathers could not possibly understand. I can absolutely assure you that separation of church and state had nothing to do with separation of God and those that wish to follow his teachings.
IMHO we have become a nation of people that is fast losing the ability to stand unwavering upon our principals simply because we no longer have the common sense to understand their meaning

pappyman

I have allot of respect for Zell Miller even when he was our governor of Georgia....He's a very common thinking man that will support either party if it benefit's the people of Georgia...he does not vote along party lines

His term ends in 2005 and he has stated that he will not seek re-election he will be missed

Mexstan

A few minutes ago I happened to see a statistic that made my blood boil and then run cold. It is this:
"In the United States, more than 30 million babies have been killed by abortion since Roe v. Wade".
30,000,000 babies murdered!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To put this into some sort of perspective, the population of the entire country of Canada is about 42 million. It is hard to get my mind around the fact that so many babies have been murdered.
Zell Miller indicated that he was of the opinion that America was going down the tubes because of moral decay. Isn't this a prime example of moral decay. The so called courts have happily decided that it is OK to murder defenseless babies up to a certain age. They conveniently overlook the fact that life has been proven again and again to begin at conception. These people that have killed these unborn babies are nothing but government approved murderers.
I suspect that America is soon going to pay big time for all these murders.

natstayl

...and not one could speak up for her/himself. Clearly visible on a sonagram during the procedure a 12 week fetus recoils in pain. But some argue, life doesn't start until birth.
Nat

sgrooms

So many wonderful points have been made here, and I am not sure that I can speak as eloquently as some of you have, but I will try.

When I was a boy, my mother read to me and talked to me about God. When I was gowing up, we went to a one room church that was just as alive with the spirit of God as any multi million dollar building that churches are now.

It seemed, when I was younger, that it was a lot easier to talk about God in a public setting. Now-a-days, it seems that if you mention anything about Him, you are chastized beyond belief for being intolerant of other religions. This is something that I don't understand.

This country was founded on a strong belief in the Almighty. It permeats our founding father's works, their words, and the thoughts they allowed us to read. I think it is very unfortunate that we cannot allow the free practice of our religion in regards to local, state, and federal government. If it were any other religion, the ACLU and whomever would be falling all over themselves trying to find a lawsuit.

I happen to agree with the good senator. We are slouching our way toward a society that has little moral fiber, less compassion, and no foresight at all. I only hope that we can turn our eyes back to God, or whatever form of diety they choose, and be saved.

God bless America!

PistolWhipt

A good read that explains the reasoning behind the constitution and the declaration of independance is "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine. It mentions their religious stand, but seems to put more emphasis on being able to do their own thing and getting away from the antiquated ways of Europe.

Probably the most influential piece of American History that I have read.

PISTOL