Mexstan

Here is something I just read that maybe all Americans need to read. Serious stuff:

http://miller.senate.gov/press/2004/...04decency.html

Cowhand

That's amazing. A democrat actually said something I wholeheartedly agree with. I'll have to mark this one down on my calender

billg

I've seen Zell Miller in several interviews. He is very good. I can remember a time when there were more dems like him. It’s a real shame the way things have changed.

MCMLV

The problem is that for too long we have been so divisive by single mindedly siding with one party or oposing the other that we have forgotten to look for the good in people and we judge them by their affiliations only. Good is good no matter where it comes from, just as bad sould be eliminated no matter its origin.

MikeyB

Excellent!!

MikeyB

Battering Ram

Zell Miller has a new book out that has gotten great reviews. His new book is "A National Party No More: The Conscience of a Conservative Democrat". I saw him give an good interview on TV the other day where he was supporting George W Bush for re-election and said he would campain for him. And yes he is a Democratic Senator.

Horace

FiverBob

Wow that is dynamite. I get sick of the repeating of the phrase "separate church and state." He nailed it on the head. It says nothing about getting God out of anywhere, rather putting Him in. Good for him - - wish I could vote for him.

natstayl

Zell Miller says,
Good to see another of our government leaders not afraid to take a stand. Will there be more, I sure hope so.Keep'm coming. Nat

Commatoze

He's right about that, and that's why I replied. Sorry gentlemen, but when I read that speech, it scares the heck out of me. I see an attempt to alter my First Amendment rights to suit what the Senator personally believes is right, and wrong, the correct faith, what "audio art" I should and should not listen to. Curious, I wonder if you'd rally around him if he was quoting Koran scriptures instead of the Bible? Show me a country who's government is steeped in religion that's not embroiled in political and cultural strife? I'm very happy with my government over here, and my personal religion (or anybody's religion) over there. Call the phrase what you want, I think it makes good sense. I think as a cilvilized society we should be able to discern right from wrong, good from evil, moral from immmoral without opening ones personal book of faith. If you're looking for further debate from me, forget it. I'm going back to diesel talk, but occasionally something tweaks me.

natstayl

Commatoze wrote; Call the phrase what you want, I think it makes good sense. I think as a cilvilized society we should be able to discern right from wrong, good from evil, moral from immmoral without opening ones personal book of faith. If you're looking for further debate from me, forget it. I'm going back to diesel talk, but occasionally something tweaks me.

I'm sorry if I tweaked you. No further debate needed. I think I understand your thoughts are "to each his own." Are you saying it's alright as long as it doesn't interfere with you doing what you want when you want to do it? My intent is not to be ugly or start a war of words in this forum, but concerning same sex marraiges, I consider them against nature, and against God's design no matter which religion one may or may not subscribe too. How about you?
Nat

Mexstan

Commatoze, take a look at what he said in part;
"Arnold Toynbee who wrote the acclaimed 12 volume A Study of History, once declared, ‘Of the 22 civilizations that have appeared in history, 19 of them collapsed when they reached the moral state America is in today.’
He is saying that the states has sank so low morally with it's rejection of everything your founding fathers held dear, it's turning of good into bad, it's pushing of the acceptance of homosexuals and a lot more that it is now at the brink of the same extinction that caused the other 19 civilizations to disappear.
This makes me think of Biblical prophecy and it's many references to "The last days". There does not seem to be any reference to America in prophecy in the last days. It's has vanished!
America IS facing it's greatest threat in history. I think that he is just trying to wake you guys up and get you to take your finger out of that warm place that it is so comfortable placed.

MCMLV

Commatze, you do have a valid point, and yes I also do prefer choosing my faith and what I listen too, however I also think that the Senator is not trying to impose a set of values on us in form of legislature, but rather asking us to embrace a higher standard of morality and not pick the lowest common denominator. A lot of what is negative today is the result of just pure greed, the quest for greater profit no matter the consequence, even at the price of abandoning civility and the moral standards that humanity has long accepted as good.

jfpointer

I have to agree with Commatoze that discerning right from wrong does not require religion. It's entirely possible to construct a moral framework without it. With that said, I think people tend to get a bit silly about the "separation" bit sometimes. I agree with the Senator on the point of the First amendment being to prohibit establishment of an official state church, not any mention of religion by public figures. Now, understand that I'm not a particularly religious person, so to me all religions look pretty much alike. From that perspective, I can't figure out how I'm harmed in any way by someone saying "One nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance or by ex-Justice Roy Moore's commandments sculpture. I'm not threatened in public situations where people want to pray; I'm grown up enough to wait in respectful silence as they do so. All I ask in return is that they respect my decision not to without making unwarranted assumptions.

Mexstan

Guys and gals, I can see that this thread could lead to some dissension. That's fine, but please remember that it is OK to disagree, but we must agree to do so agreeably. Let's keep the mods away on this one.

jfpointer, now you are adding another arguable point. You state that you do not believe that it is necessary to have religion to construct a moral framework. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and I respect you for keeping quite when others pray etc, but I strongly disagree with you on that statement. Go back to the time of the Pilgrim's, the founding fathers of the great country of the United States of America. How would you have founded your country from scratch without religion? In fact, the US would not be here today if it was not for religion. Do you remember the main reason the Pilgrims left their home country? They left the bad parts of religion behind them and started a great new country using the best parts of religion as they knew it. It worked for hundreds of years but has now been severely corrupted. This corruption is what that senator is talking about and trying to turn around. It is this corruption that is helping to destroy America.
All religions are NOT alike. Christianity is the ONLY religion that does not demand that you do good to go to heaven. All other religions insist that you MUST do good to be allowed entry into heaven. Christianity is the ONLY religion whose savior, Jesus Christ, died for us and went bodily into heaven. ALL other 'religions' have had their founder dead and buried. Jesus Christ is the only 'prophet' to have been proved 100% correct 100% of the time. I could go on but that would be distracting from the main point of this thread.
Going back to your point that I am disputing, how would you, or any other person know good from bad without the base of religion of the the Holy Bible? What would you use as the base for morals? You could argue that your instinct would tell you right from wrong. Maybe, but the Bible defines those morals exactly and nobody yet has ever disproved that the morals as taught from the Bible are bad. It has been proven over and over again that to live the morals of the Bible leads to a great society with happy and content people. It is when the people stray from these morals that the problems start.

AlpineRAM

Well, from over here this looks somewhat strange to me. I don't think that same sex marriages do pose a big moral problem on society. I think that the decay of values like honesty, respect, tolerance and helpfulness (which aren't exclusive to christianity) is what ails the modern societies. The quote that 19 out of 22 civilizations collapsed when they reached the moral state the US is in today should IMHO not be taken as an excuse to forbid just one or two forms of what is perceived as the symptoms of the moral decay but should be taken as a hint to look back at the fundamental moral values that led to the founding of hte USA and that are written down in the constitution.
IMHO any society that is based on the values that are outlined in christianity (as in most other big religions) won't need to place a deity in the constitution to make religious people able to live a way of life that is deemed good by their religion. A very big problem with the naming of a deity in a constitution to me is that it easily leads to bigotry. It's much easier to look for the label this other guy gives his deity than to improve the own moral conduct. I think that the USA isn't nearl as secularized as it is deemed by some inhabitants. Even on the last US$ bills I had in my hands I could read "In God we trust". I think that going back to the basic values is needed much more than naming God somewhere.
Just my 2c

AlpineRAM