Broke a Bolt! Please advise
12-13-2008, 12:38 PM
#31
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Thread Starter
make sure you buy quality easy outs
they are square not like a drill bit
you pound em in and they are cut to grap when used to remove things
imo
punch the bolt
drill straight
make sure the easy out goes infar enough and has enough to bite
remove easyout
heat around hole
then use easyout while still hot
i personally dont like the spiral easy outs because they break!
they are square not like a drill bit
you pound em in and they are cut to grap when used to remove things
imo
punch the bolt
drill straight
make sure the easy out goes infar enough and has enough to bite
remove easyout
heat around hole
then use easyout while still hot
i personally dont like the spiral easy outs because they break!
its a pretty tight place for me to work with a drill...but I'm starting to feel like I might be able to do this...and after all if it doesn't work Im right where I started...
12-13-2008, 12:41 PM
#32
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Thread Starter
Is there even enough room in there to drill a straight hole without removing the radiator and coolers?
Be careful eze-outs break pretty easy especally with a small bolt like that.
If I recall the bolt is less than 1/4" diameter.
Not to fret if you can't get it out, Just use a punch to peen over the hole a little where the dowel pin could escape and hope the remaining four bolts hold the case on. They should.
Be careful eze-outs break pretty easy especally with a small bolt like that.
If I recall the bolt is less than 1/4" diameter.
Not to fret if you can't get it out, Just use a punch to peen over the hole a little where the dowel pin could escape and hope the remaining four bolts hold the case on. They should.
I really wish I could tab the KDP instead of punching it..
If I leave the shank, is there anything I could glue the bolthead and tab back onto the casing?
I would still blue locktite and torque the other bolts...
12-13-2008, 12:57 PM
#33
Registered User
I really think peening the KDP and leaving the broken bolt shank will be fine.
The worst that could happen, though I don't think it will, is you could after a long time develop an oil leak on the portion of the case to block gasket to the left of KDP.
Think of all the folks who find loose bolts while doing the KDP but have had no problems.
What I've done in really tight spaces is to grind the shank of the drill bit down to a length that will fit the space. Don't let the bit get hot and lose it's temper doing it.
Then use an angle drill.
What I've been wondering is how you'll heat the bolt stub to break lose the Loctite though. The aluminum case and block will suck away the heat really well. What might work is to push a brazing rod,or a drill bit into the drilled hole and direct the heat at it.
The worst that could happen, though I don't think it will, is you could after a long time develop an oil leak on the portion of the case to block gasket to the left of KDP.
Think of all the folks who find loose bolts while doing the KDP but have had no problems.
What I've done in really tight spaces is to grind the shank of the drill bit down to a length that will fit the space. Don't let the bit get hot and lose it's temper doing it.
Then use an angle drill.
What I've been wondering is how you'll heat the bolt stub to break lose the Loctite though. The aluminum case and block will suck away the heat really well. What might work is to push a brazing rod,or a drill bit into the drilled hole and direct the heat at it.
12-13-2008, 01:09 PM
#34
Registered User
Thread Starter
All the other ways to use a drill, I have used the drilling into the bit until the threads just give way, drilling small to larger, and I have a propane torch, have a used acetaline torch but I never used it before would have to experiment first...
its drilling into the small recessed space that I can't see that has me so uncomfortable...
I do have a mig welder, with gas, is the case aluminium or just the tab?
cant get to the bolt shank because its recessed, but wonder about welding the bolt head/tab or even the tab just covering the KDP and the bolt hole...
with the rest of the bolts torqued that would probably hold..
I'm thinking I might be able to just spot weld around the tab, less chance of me makin a hole...
but this would all depend on my skill at welding, which Im not sure about, i'd definitely do a little practice before I got in there...
Not sure when I'll get to it, I hope soon, not sure with the season and work etc, might be a week or two..
its drilling into the small recessed space that I can't see that has me so uncomfortable...
I do have a mig welder, with gas, is the case aluminium or just the tab?
cant get to the bolt shank because its recessed, but wonder about welding the bolt head/tab or even the tab just covering the KDP and the bolt hole...
with the rest of the bolts torqued that would probably hold..
I'm thinking I might be able to just spot weld around the tab, less chance of me makin a hole...
but this would all depend on my skill at welding, which Im not sure about, i'd definitely do a little practice before I got in there...
Not sure when I'll get to it, I hope soon, not sure with the season and work etc, might be a week or two..
12-13-2008, 01:16 PM
#35
Registered User
I wouldn't do any welding in there.
Just peen around the KDP hole with a punch.
Lots of folks have used this method instead of a tab.
In fact Cummins' early method was to use the wicking type green Loctite on the dowel pin and call it good.
Just peen around the KDP hole with a punch.
Lots of folks have used this method instead of a tab.
In fact Cummins' early method was to use the wicking type green Loctite on the dowel pin and call it good.
12-13-2008, 01:20 PM
#36
Registered User
Thread Starter
Think of all the folks who find loose bolts while doing the KDP but have had no problems.
What I've done in really tight spaces is to grind the shank of the drill bit down to a length that will fit the space. Don't let the bit get hot and lose it's temper doing it.
Then use an angle drill.
What I've been wondering is how you'll heat the bolt stub to break lose the Loctite though. The aluminum case and block will suck away the heat really well. What might work is to push a brazing rod,or a drill bit into the drilled hole and direct the heat at it.
What I've done in really tight spaces is to grind the shank of the drill bit down to a length that will fit the space. Don't let the bit get hot and lose it's temper doing it.
Then use an angle drill.
What I've been wondering is how you'll heat the bolt stub to break lose the Loctite though. The aluminum case and block will suck away the heat really well. What might work is to push a brazing rod,or a drill bit into the drilled hole and direct the heat at it.
definitely appealing f I don't have to drill in that little space...
I don't really know what peening is, but i know some here have done it and no problems...
Unfortunately I gotta go do chores now, I will check back this evening and will definitely post the results when I tackle this
Also I've learned alot about how to handle this problem in different situations in the future, although I'm pretty sure this will never happen to me again (wink)
12-13-2008, 01:24 PM
#37
Registered User
Thread Starter
Think of all the folks who find loose bolts while doing the KDP but have had no problems.
What I've done in really tight spaces is to grind the shank of the drill bit down to a length that will fit the space. Don't let the bit get hot and lose it's temper doing it.
Then use an angle drill.
What I've been wondering is how you'll heat the bolt stub to break lose the Loctite though. The aluminum case and block will suck away the heat really well. What might work is to push a brazing rod,or a drill bit into the drilled hole and direct the heat at it.
What I've done in really tight spaces is to grind the shank of the drill bit down to a length that will fit the space. Don't let the bit get hot and lose it's temper doing it.
Then use an angle drill.
What I've been wondering is how you'll heat the bolt stub to break lose the Loctite though. The aluminum case and block will suck away the heat really well. What might work is to push a brazing rod,or a drill bit into the drilled hole and direct the heat at it.
definitely appealing f I don't have to drill in that little space...
I don't really know what peening is, but i know some here have done it and no problems...
Unfortunately I gotta go do chores now, I will check back this evening and will definitely post the results when I tackle this
Also I've learned alot about how to handle this problem in different situations in the future, although I'm pretty sure this will never happen to me again (wink)
12-13-2008, 01:32 PM
#38
Administrator
Barngal, Peening is simply making sure the dowel is below the surface of the case, then using a punch and hammer and hitting the case to roll over the face, this should prevent the pin from coming out through the front.
The case is Aluninum, you are not going to weld to it, just melt it.
The case is Aluninum, you are not going to weld to it, just melt it.
12-13-2008, 01:52 PM
#39
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i peened the dowel on the '95 engine in my '97 conversion chevy. you take a sharp punch. and hit it just around the edge of the hole in the case to push in the aluminum around the dowel hole. so the hole is now effectively smaller than the dowel. = dowel not coming out. green wicking grade loctite is equivalent strength to blue. hit it with some of that as well. you will be OK. shoot some brake clean in there 1st to get oil residue out before locktite goes in. remember though locktite green wicking grade is different than locktite bearing retainer which is also green. make sure you use the wicking green. like was said before, you will have to melt the red locktite with a torch or it will not come out no matter what you do short of drilling out and helicoiling. red locktite is just short of chemical welding when its setup. heat is the only thing that will break the bond down.
though at this point, you might be best off to pull the front end off. grill rad support rad and intercooler are not hard and don't take long to get off the truck. it will help you when installing the new front seal too if you require a speedi sleeve especially.
peen looks like this.
though at this point, you might be best off to pull the front end off. grill rad support rad and intercooler are not hard and don't take long to get off the truck. it will help you when installing the new front seal too if you require a speedi sleeve especially.
peen looks like this.
12-13-2008, 02:21 PM
#40
Registered User
Lots of good advice here. I'll throw mine in too. 
I would try simple solutions before taking any irreversible measures like enlarging the hole. It may be inevitable, but I like to attempt to save the original threads first.
The secret is to use a sharp center punch to make a spot on the exact center. Remove the rad or whatever's needed to get a straight on view of the hole, for the punching and the drilling.
Drill into it straight with a 1/8" bit, lefthand is nice if you have one, but not a necessity. Don't feel the need to drill right through the bolt right away, though you may need to later. I don't like to pound an extractor right through a bolt, because it expands the bolt as it gets tapped in. For this reason, I try to stay away from tapered spiral extractors. I use a straight-splined extractor.
Don't worry about trying to grind the broken surface flat before punching, any damage you do to the threads in the hole above the break will prevent the bolt from unthreading easily. Just center punch it cleanly and deeply.
Use a little bit of heat to soften up the loctite. Not much heat is necessary. You're not trying to make anything cherry red. A small butane torch is ideal. Remember if you burn the gasket behind the gear housing, your problems will be a lot bigger.
I'm thinking this bolt will come out really easy as long as you drill straight, and get the loctite softened up. It's not like it's a stainless steel exhaust manifold bolt that's been getting barbecued in there for 200k miles. There have been many different pieces of great advice offered in this thread, and you may indeed end up having to enlarge the hole, and rethread or helicoil it, or peen the KDP hole and abandon the bolt, but working in the trade, I'd start with this little surgical procedure first and see how it goes. Good luck.
I would try simple solutions before taking any irreversible measures like enlarging the hole. It may be inevitable, but I like to attempt to save the original threads first.The secret is to use a sharp center punch to make a spot on the exact center. Remove the rad or whatever's needed to get a straight on view of the hole, for the punching and the drilling.
Drill into it straight with a 1/8" bit, lefthand is nice if you have one, but not a necessity. Don't feel the need to drill right through the bolt right away, though you may need to later. I don't like to pound an extractor right through a bolt, because it expands the bolt as it gets tapped in. For this reason, I try to stay away from tapered spiral extractors. I use a straight-splined extractor.
Don't worry about trying to grind the broken surface flat before punching, any damage you do to the threads in the hole above the break will prevent the bolt from unthreading easily. Just center punch it cleanly and deeply.
Use a little bit of heat to soften up the loctite. Not much heat is necessary. You're not trying to make anything cherry red. A small butane torch is ideal. Remember if you burn the gasket behind the gear housing, your problems will be a lot bigger.
I'm thinking this bolt will come out really easy as long as you drill straight, and get the loctite softened up. It's not like it's a stainless steel exhaust manifold bolt that's been getting barbecued in there for 200k miles. There have been many different pieces of great advice offered in this thread, and you may indeed end up having to enlarge the hole, and rethread or helicoil it, or peen the KDP hole and abandon the bolt, but working in the trade, I'd start with this little surgical procedure first and see how it goes. Good luck.
12-13-2008, 03:28 PM
#42
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Infidel--Have you ever used "extract-alloy" Its a welding rod that is made for extracting bolts that are broke below the surface----It would have saved you a LOT of money on your dozer if you had it then.
12-13-2008, 03:45 PM
#43
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Thread Starter
Yes, LOTS of good advice and I appreciate it.
I agree, I'd avoid enlarging the hole at all costs, I've never used a tap/die,
and I think if I can drill straight and apply some heat the threads would hopefully give...my easy outs are the splined kind, they kinda have graduating steps.. I have the spiral but wasn't considering using them..
Does anyone know the length of the M10 bolt that came with the TST kit just in case I am able to screw in the tab?
And is this any special strength bolt? Thinking if its an aluminum case the bolt isn't that hardened, but I dont' know...
The peening does look easy enough, although I'm thinking unless I can glue on the head and the tab, (ok, wishful thinking, as nobody has reccomended that..)
anything else is gonna be easier for me if I remove the radiator..of course I have AC and tranny thingys too, so I'll have to see what to procedure for THAT is...I just like working space if I can get it...
thanks for the welding tip, I think even if I screw up the drilling a little bit,
I wouldn't do as much damage as overheating the thing..
Whats behind this screw? If I drilled to deep (just say if) anyone know how thick the case is behind the bolt? At the least I'd probably have a leak, what would be the worst outcome?
Gotta go finish cleaning the barn, hasn't rained so I'm getiting to the winter prepartion late, better not put it off any longer.
Back later and THANK YOU ALL what an awesome forum and I love that I am learning to work on my truck..I' enjoy putting time into doing this much more than doing the overtime to pay someone else to do it...
I agree, I'd avoid enlarging the hole at all costs, I've never used a tap/die,
and I think if I can drill straight and apply some heat the threads would hopefully give...my easy outs are the splined kind, they kinda have graduating steps.. I have the spiral but wasn't considering using them..
Does anyone know the length of the M10 bolt that came with the TST kit just in case I am able to screw in the tab?
And is this any special strength bolt? Thinking if its an aluminum case the bolt isn't that hardened, but I dont' know...
The peening does look easy enough, although I'm thinking unless I can glue on the head and the tab, (ok, wishful thinking, as nobody has reccomended that..)
anything else is gonna be easier for me if I remove the radiator..of course I have AC and tranny thingys too, so I'll have to see what to procedure for THAT is...I just like working space if I can get it...
thanks for the welding tip, I think even if I screw up the drilling a little bit,
I wouldn't do as much damage as overheating the thing..
Whats behind this screw? If I drilled to deep (just say if) anyone know how thick the case is behind the bolt? At the least I'd probably have a leak, what would be the worst outcome?
Gotta go finish cleaning the barn, hasn't rained so I'm getiting to the winter prepartion late, better not put it off any longer.
Back later and THANK YOU ALL what an awesome forum and I love that I am learning to work on my truck..I' enjoy putting time into doing this much more than doing the overtime to pay someone else to do it...
12-13-2008, 06:11 PM
#44
Registered User
Does anyone know the length of the M10 bolt that came with the TST kit just in case I am able to screw in the tab?
And is this any special strength bolt? Thinking if its an aluminum case the bolt isn't that hardened, but I dont' know...
Thinking back, the stock bolt is an M8, and about 1/2 inch long. I would assume the TST bolt would be slightly (1/8") longer. The stock bolt has a higher 10.9 strength rating. Not sure about the TST, but I've been known to use a regular strength 8.9 rated bolt with a tab.
Whats behind this screw? If I drilled to deep (just say if) anyone know how thick the case is behind the bolt? At the least I'd probably have a leak, what would be the worst outcome?
The bolt goes right into the iron engine block, and the ones I've measured have had a bit of air space behind the bolt. If you drill right through the bolt, you should feel the bit enter that air space before you start drilling into engine block, but for safety, I'd mark the bit at 1/2 inch and go no deeper.
...
12-13-2008, 07:09 PM
#45
Registered User