Valid points. In your comparison, though, you compared the HD motor's predicted overhaul interval to the cream of the crop 12v stories. MANY 12v engines will not make it to a million miles without an overhaul. There are those that have (same as the 7.3 IDI), but it cannot be expected. Cummins' expected overhaul interval on a 12v is FAR less than a million miles, so the comparison is more than slightly biased. You're comparing the standard expected life of one engine to the top-tier stories of heroism of another.

Also, you have to remember what the HD Cummins motors are subjected to. In an industrial gen-set application, the motor sits for months, then is required to fire up and assume full-load immediately. This is very taxing on an engine, which is why the life expectancy is lower than expected.


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Ya, it's tough to compare two engines that are soooo different. I can't find the Cummins expected over haul time for the 12v. Comparing the Cummins rated life expectancy of the big V8 to the stories of the million mile 12v (of which there are plenty - agreed they won't all make this) was intended to squash this: "there is absolutely ZERO credibility to the Vee motor reliability argument when the same company that makes your own bombproof I-6 12v turns to a Vee motor when reliability is paramount" by showing that the "inferior" MEDIUM duty L6 can nicely outlast the HEAVY duty V8 that was intended to take much more abuse in most applications. That along with the fact that the V8's are not used because "reliability is paramount", but rather to save weight and space where very high HP is needed more over torque.
Although I agree to some degree that this abuse is a contributor to the shorter life expectancy, I am also of the strong persuasion that the "V" design wears the cylinder walls in a diesel much quicker due to combustion characteristics and all the other things that go along with it like harmonics.
Most guys that run V8 diesels (that think they love them) will tell you they are fine as long as you don't lug them. I'm a lugger

 

Good thoughts, but I still don't agree that the 12v has a longer service life than the Q-series Cummins. And yes, in the big gen-sets, reliability IS paramount. It is important in medium duty applications, for sure, but it is FAR more important in the HD Stationary market. My company just recently completed the Google Atlanta facility ( GC) with 2.1 billion ( with a B) in infrastructure backed up by Cummins Q-series stat. setups. The budget was unlimited, and there were no space requirements. It was, and still is, one of the most monetarily important scenarios on earth that relies on a mechanical engine. They use Cummins Vee motors. If you think any engine manufacturer would send a subpar platform (as you're implying the Vee motor is) into such an arena, you're mistaken. Cummins has plenty of faith in the Vee orientation for some reason...

IMO, Cummins wouldn't sacrifice their legendary name by widely implementing an inferior design solely based on space efficiency and weight management.

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As bad as I hate to admit it I think Cummins has lost it`s advantage. There was a time that dodge had much better fuel mileage, the same HP, & tough as nails. Now the other trucks have more power & better fuel mileage. As far as the engine it looks to me like the GM has less trouble than the others & has a service department that knows how to fix it.

 

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Banyon,.....I agree with you! I also think Cummins has slipped over the past three to four years. IMHO,.....the emissions issues have hurt them more than anything. As you said, the mileage of the new trucks is terrible, I see constant problems with the engines at my local Dodge Dealer and as you also said the new Dodge CTD CR 6.7's are dead LAST in ALL categories when they go up against the new Ford 6.7 and Duramax 6.6. The most recent
"shootout" between the new Dodge 6.7, Ford 6.7 and Chevy Duramax in "Diesel Power" proved that.

Like you, it pains me to have to say this as I have driven Cummins Powered Dodge Trucks since 1992. And I can honestly tell you that of the five that I have owned my 1996 Dodge CTD 12 valve is still the BEST of all of them that I have owned.

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John_P

 

i'm not sure what these v motors are being used for at gooole but it looks like from what you stated is that they are being used for generators or something along those lines which is a far cry from a engine thats used for a half a million miles of service hauling loads all over the country.there's no way these engines you spoke of are going to see the run time or heavy loads our trucks will see during their life time.

 

SMH. Stationary generators run all day, every day @ full load. They also have to do that without the benefit of increased airflow which comes from speed that vehicle engines enjoy. These engines log use in hours or fuel consumption, not miles, but if you do the math, the miles would be in the millions.

You're thinking of a backup generator, which is seldom used. Way different.

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There may be a whole different reason for using V8 configurations for generator plants, more power pulses per rotation. This can be a big benefit on the generator.

Why doesnt someone ask cummins why they use what they use?

I work on power generators but they use Nat. gas turbine engines, i do know the generator can be very finicky in how they are spun.

 

I hear what you are saying but note: One huge project with an unlimited budget is not enough to change how Cummins designs their engines. They look at the grand scale. If gensets is your thing, what about all the gensets sent up to Alaska or the Yukon, etc. They are all flown in. Space and weight is a huge issue. Look at the other applications the same engines are used - space, weight - still an issue in locomotives, ships, and most other applications they're used in. There are waaay more of these engines out there than what Cummins made for the Google project.

Full RPM, I don't think they run quite at full load. Can't see any engine lasting if it's at full load 100% of the time.
Lack of "increased airflow which comes from speed that vehicle engines enjoy" is offset by a larger cooling system. No increased airflow needed.
I did the rough math for ya - L6 came in up top of the V8.

Goes right along with what I said earlier about HP/TQ. We've learned from building our planes that it takes a lot of HP to turn a prop. Same deal as with the genset. The V8 generally has a higher rated RPM which is also beneficial for a Genset - you don't need a gearbox to speed up the generator's input shaft. The L6 engines of comparable HP to the huge V8's used in the Gensets are usually lower RPM engines. You've also hit it on the head - anything electrical likes a smooth pull. L6 power pulses are much more agressive than a size compareable V8 pulses because the pistons are bigger and hit less often per rotation.

That's pretty much what happened with the Cummins 555... The 904 was better but they didn't make it very long either. Same goes for the International V's, Powerstroke's, and GM's attempt at a V diesel, and lots and lots of other V diesels. It's not that the V8 Diesel can't be reliable. To some degree, they can be. But due to the physics of the design - the L6 has always been a longer lasting more reliable engine than the V8 Diesel, especially where lugging is needed. If you look into any industry using diesels you'll find that the ones with the "million mile" or "indestructible" or "crazy reliable" reputation are of the inline variety. (and mechanically injected - but that's another rabbit to chase...)

By the way, not all the Q-series Cummins are V configurations.

 

We have let the automakers enslave us? The automakers have nothing to do with it man, no wonder this has happened. No one even realizes it is the government mandating new emissions, safety, fuel mileage, and all other sorts of regulations that have caused this.

 

Yep. That right there is a fact.

 

DING!DING!DING!


That being said, I really wouldn't want to go back to the "bad old days" of zero emission controls...

Who else remembers choking on the black smoke and diesel fumes eminating from a three/five ton cube van in front of them in rush hour traffic? Or choking with watering eyes on the vapors from several poorly tuned carburated V8 gas engines on a hot summer day?

Yup, emissions control pisses me off, but only when it comes to the vehicles I own. Everyone else needs it... Does that make me a hypocryte?

 

Every one has up and downs, i choose the Cummins,i hope IMHO.In bread delivery business i agree 100% as i logged 800,000KM(500,000Miles) with two Ford 7.3 but both trucks/motors were pretty much shot by then,both leaking /using oil,unreliable .Good thing about the ones i drove was that both motors were never opened up for any major repairs (IE---original turbo/injectors/oil pump)On the down side below-5, sitting all night,a no start if not plugged in,down to -25C and they might start,cross your fingers.We just had the night guys fire them up ever 4 hours to keep everything warm or leave them running.Underpowered when the cube box loaded down with 27 stacks of bread,poor mileage,glow plugs replaced every 1-2 years/major electrical issues/gremlins/weak front ends---maybe 8-10PMG in the city.I could not get more than 100Km out of a Ford tranny,water pumps,alternator/starter.This is the reason why i have 2 Cummins in the garage at home,better fuel mileage/easier to work on and just a better engine IMHO and driving experience.PS-----07 GM gasser 6.0(325HP) is what i drive now and it had been very reliable,70,000KM a year(one ECM/tune up,water pump,alternator,2 rads,starter and a couple switches/belts,3rd set of brakes/tires---original front end but work will be need soon).25 oil changes later/done every 10,000KM(Mobil 5w/30) in 250,000KM(155,000 miles) of heavy city driving+tons of idle time though out the colder days,original tranny never touched except for fluid changes(last year the dealer said the motor was at 6000+ hours)most times i just let it run 10-12 hour a day for heat.Not bad and has plenty of power to spare when loaded---gives me 13MPG average,hoping to get 400,000 out of it.---My 2 cents,CHEERS DW

 

I think it comes down to apples to apples. I read on here one guy saying his friend had a 7.3 and had 600hp and lasted two weeks. Sounds like he was playing and ended up paying. It's not a Ford or International issue if I take their engine and put on a huge turbo, garden hose injectors and then end up spitting a rod out the side of the block. I abused my rear differential, killed it and it has cost me over $2000 so far, am I ticked off at Dodge, nope, it's my fault, now, talk to me about the dash that is falling apart and I'll give ya an earfull!

My buddy is a Ford tech, says 90% of the Ford 6.0's he sees with head gasket issues, injectors are the one's where the guy has thrown a chip on it. Other than that he tells me that they are just common egr problems and things, kinda like the fuel system fiasco I have dealt with on my Cummins. We had an F550 and it had some oil leaks but that was about it. It got drove hard for 50k with my butt in the seat and just some oil leaks. Another fella said the new 6.7 Fords are having oil pan gasket issues? Wow, mine on my '02 Dodge was leaking when bought it, had it fixed under warranty and was leaking a year later. I have a contractor friend who has an '01 Ford F250, 7.3. Has done nothing to it except maintenance. He did all 8 injectors and it was paid for by the gas station that sold the dirty fuel. Other than that he has done nothing else. Over 300k on the ticker.

I'm not stickin' up for Ford but like I said, apples to apples. Don't throw thousands of dollars of power adding junk to your engine and then blame the manufacturer when it breaks. Man up and accept the fact that your gonna have to reach deep into your pockets.

As far as the big three. I don't know much about the new Dodge, with all the fuel pump issues on mine, dash problems, clutch, tranny, on and on(before I added any power) I'm going to jump ship personally. I know, I know, everybody has their issues, guess I'm gonna revert back to what I grew up on.

I've heard rave reviews for the new Ford engine. If I was willing to spend $50k plus on a cab and chassis I might give it a whirl but the case of the $50k is what gets me. The current 6.0 Powerstroke incident reminds me of GM many years ago when they decided to put a diesel in a car and it ended up turning into a giant mess. A blurb on GM's history, something which they have obviously overcome with the Duramax. Same thing happened to Ford for whatever reason they've now got this blip on their record.

As far as the Isuzu engine, don't get caught up in your little world. Isuzu is very large in Japan and has big engines as well, up to 15.7L engines, Marine and industrial applications. http://www.isuzuengines.com/series_f...p?series=C_IDI What you see over here is just a fraction as they are not big in our market with the CAT, Cummins and Detroits populating most heavy trucks. Go to Japan and you'll see Nissan, Isuzu and others dominating the highways.

What's the best? In my opinion(which is like a bunghole, everybody has one) there is no single best. It's all opinion. You can't build and test in indentical conditions to prove it in any way. It's all opinion, this guy buys into the herd mentality and buys brand "W" diesel, this guy was raised on brand "Y" and that's what he calls the best. We have all seen it and read it right here when somebody say's, "I'm done with Dodge" and the usual first response is, "sorry to hear that bud, but your gonna find everybody has their own issues". Every driver drives, maintains his vehicle in different ways. This one has fuel issues, that one has egr issues, etc., etc.

Is Cummins the best? In my opinion no. Good engine, yeah it has done what I needed it to do. Reliable, yeah, most issues I've had have been dodge induced.....or the most recent induced by me! As far as the best, I honestly can't say anything is the best. The best in my opinion would be one that you can climb into day in and day out and know for a fact that you will get home that night, a vehicle that would put the wrecker business and mechanics out of business. But, as humans with everything made by humans that is as likely as traveling at the speed of light.

 

If I built 600hp into my 5.9l and it lasts 3 years and my buddy builds 600hp into his 7.3l Powerstroke and it lasts a couple weeks, how is that not apples to apples? They are both the manufactures chosen engine, they both do the same job, see the same abuse, they both have "garden hose injectors" and big turbos etc etc etc.You want to talk apples to apples? The Cummins is a small inline 6 cyl against the bigger V8 7.3l. And yet still, the smaller engine is making more HP/Litre (in this specific case) and lasting longer. The Cummins longevity is not just in this scenario. The Cummins as an average outlasts any of the Powerstrokes on an average. Especially when power is added. This includes towers, daily drivers, abusers etc. Apples to apples. Makes Cummins better in my books.

Yes, and who is buying a 6.0l or 7.3l and not upping the power? That's the likely reason you hear of some lasting and some not. Lasting = OEM Power Levels - Not Lasting = Upped Power Levels. Compare that to Cummins. OEM Power Levels = Lasting - Upped Power Levels = Lasting. Apples to Apples and the Cummins comes out as the better motor again. Why? Because they're built stronger. Add power and they still keep on chuggin.

Opinion is a huge part of it but a guy needs to remember that opinion is based on experience and experience says the Cummins lasts. That's why it's rep is "The Legendary Cummins" (at least in our automotive field). 20+ years of making a VERY reliable long lasting engine. Why so long of a run? Because they've designed an engine that guys like and guys buy what they like. I know the electronics have screwed that up to a degree, but blame the EPA for that. How long did Ford make the 7.3l? The ONE engine that was actually good.
Also, the identical testing facility is out there - it's called the real world. A world where there are millions of each engine all sharing the same conditions and the Cummins is just known to outlast the competition - added power or not.

Hmmm.....

Sounds like you've found what you are looking for!