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Is the Cummins still the best??

Old 12-19-2011, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sootnsmoke View Post
Well that's no fun. Can we all at least agree that 6.0L Ford trucks were all completely garbage? Perhaps this is as close to an over generalized sweeping statement we can make. We need a statement like this to rally around and create a good bond for us all.
Nice! Agreed!
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:57 PM
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I really think anyone who works on the 6.0 will agree they are very very problematic, my cousin has been a ford tech for 23 years, at the moment he does all the work on a fleet of 6.0's, 19 in all ( they belong to a pollbarn company) right at this moment he has 3 in for injector problems and one with the cab off for head work.

all bone stock trucks.

now you should ask him what he thinks about a 6.0, he will say there great because it's putting his kids through college.

Dar
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:26 PM
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9812vram,

I understand what your saying but your apples to apples is still skewed in my opinion. 600 hp Cummins and 600 hp 7.3 is not apples to apples. Things that kill that theory, how you maintain your apple -vs- how mr.7.3 maintains his apple. How you drive your apple -vs- how mr.7.3 drives his apple. What type of seeds were used to make said Cummins apple 600 hp -vs- the type used on the 7.3 apple. You have deeper pockets to buy top of the line apple seeds and fertilizer and have top of the line apple farmers where mr. 7.3 uses lesser grade seeds and less educated farmers to plant the crop so to speak. All the conditions, driving conditions, maybe you stay on the highway all day long, pull your toys on the weekends and it sits for friday night runs on the strip whereas the other guy runs in a mine all day long, down a dusty right of way somewhere or hauls gear all day long. Same 600hp totally different situations. What type of oil is used, filters, etc., etc. To many variables.

Just because you have a fuji and a granny smith don't mean it's a good comparison, still apples but still different. You say that they have identical testing facilities. Well, how about this, are all the parts made by the exact company? Person? Facility? Machines? Even two Cummins engines are going to be different. Rods could have been cast on a different day, block or some type of thing. Little bit different recipe and one is not as good as the other. One guy has 600hp and lasts years, other guy pops a rod, cracks a block. Only difference, Joe at the factory was hung over as heck from the big Nascar party at his place on Sunday where the week before or after it was just another Wednesday. Ever heard of Chao's theory?

I have not decided, still a good engine once you spend a few grand replacing things like fuel pumps, ball joints, dash boards. Actually saw a '99 the other day for sale. Dually, Cummins, Auto, 4x4 and it had about 150k on the clock. What went thru my mind? Buy truck, replace fuel pump, $600, replace injection pump, $1500, get gauges, $350, repair dowel pin problem, $300-400 maybe, ahh, good no 5th gear nut problem....ohhh, Automatic transmission replacement, $2000? $3000? Dash board and bezel, $300 plus my time total $500-600....needless to say, that apple was thrown out of the basket quickly.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:46 PM
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My thoughts. Cummins makes a great engine, but so do other companies. Everything is mechanical. Stuff breaks. Engineers are far from perfect and most will never admit it.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Purplezr2 View Post
My thoughts. Cummins makes a great engine, but so do other companies. Everything is mechanical. Stuff breaks. Engineers are far from perfect and most will never admit it.
Well said
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dodgeguy71 View Post
9812vram,

I understand what your saying but your apples to apples is still skewed in my opinion. 600 hp Cummins and 600 hp 7.3 is not apples to apples. Things that kill that theory, how you maintain your apple -vs- how mr.7.3 maintains his apple. How you drive your apple -vs- how mr.7.3 drives his apple. What type of seeds were used to make said Cummins apple 600 hp -vs- the type used on the 7.3 apple. You have deeper pockets to buy top of the line apple seeds and fertilizer and have top of the line apple farmers where mr. 7.3 uses lesser grade seeds and less educated farmers to plant the crop so to speak. All the conditions, driving conditions, maybe you stay on the highway all day long, pull your toys on the weekends and it sits for friday night runs on the strip whereas the other guy runs in a mine all day long, down a dusty right of way somewhere or hauls gear all day long. Same 600hp totally different situations. What type of oil is used, filters, etc., etc. To many variables.

Just because you have a fuji and a granny smith don't mean it's a good comparison, still apples but still different. You say that they have identical testing facilities. Well, how about this, are all the parts made by the exact company? Person? Facility? Machines? Even two Cummins engines are going to be different. Rods could have been cast on a different day, block or some type of thing. Little bit different recipe and one is not as good as the other. One guy has 600hp and lasts years, other guy pops a rod, cracks a block. Only difference, Joe at the factory was hung over as heck from the big Nascar party at his place on Sunday where the week before or after it was just another Wednesday. Ever heard of Chao's theory?
Trying to kill this with technicalities eh? Listen dodgeguy, I know that you know that 90% of what you said does not apply to said example. In a few less words, what you've said is I cannot compare my granny apple with your granny apple because they came from different sides of the tree, let alone compare it to a fuji apple from a totally different tree.
I get what you're saying. But with that logic applied - nothing can be compared to anything. The problem with that, is comparison is the foundation of all judgement. ALL judgement.
Variables aside, you've still missed it. If dodgeguy has a 600hp Cummins lined up beside fordguy's 7.3l powerstroke with 800hp at the track and fordguy whips dodgeguy's socks - what matters at the finish line? Not tire slip, clutch slip, air temperature, wind direction or anything else. Fordguy beat dodgeguy. Period. Maybe next time dogeguy beats fordguy! Now here's the catch - when fordguy consistently (or almost consistently) looses to dodgeguy: dodgeguy has the faster truck. Regardless of the variables. Doesn't matter if fordguy has more power or had the crappier side of the track. Dodgeguy's truck is still faster.
And this is what we see in our testing facility - the real world, where there are hundreds of thousands of examples of all the variables from all the makers. Cummins reputation for longevity, reliability and everything else is not taken from 3 motors in a perfect environment. It's taken from an average of all of their motors - from the coal mines to the drag strips to your truck. It's no different for the others.
It's the overall average that balances out the variables.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Purplezr2 View Post
My thoughts. Cummins makes a great engine, but so do other companies. Everything is mechanical. Stuff breaks. Engineers are far from perfect and most will never admit it.
Agreed. But the question was not "Who makes a great motor"? The question was "Does Cummins do it better"?
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:40 AM
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Arrow My take


OK, so over the years ----->

Early GM gas to diesel conversions ----- "DOA"
GM 6.2 & 6.5 ------------------------- "OK"
Fords 6.9 & 7.3 ----------------------- "A good effort"
Early Cummins 5.9's ------------------- "Durable workhorses"
Ford 6.0 PS -------------------------- "Under engineered"
Cummins CR 2003 to 2007 ------------ "Modern workhorses"
GM Duramax thru 2007 ---------------- "Good effort improving"

--- and finally---.

The latest efforts from the Big Three --- "Decent products being overwhelmed from the never ending emissions regulations and we're paying for it".

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Old 12-20-2011, 10:37 AM
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Nice little chart but have we forgotten the vp's? 53 blocks? GM's early trials were given a bad name because? Yes, they put them in....Cars. How many people then or today know how to, shut a diesel off? Maintain a diesel? Sure, not a great engine but the customer base was not all seasoned truckers either.

I remember the first Cummins in the trucks and heard "slobbering pigs", "Comeapart" and all manner of chatter. Seems as though 6.9 as gutless as it was seemed more popular but most would just bypass them all for a good ol' 460 or 454.

7.3's, good attempt, I like that. Think it's an opinion swayed by tunnel vision or should I say "Cummins Vision". Most have their blinders on or their, as I said, "traditional values". I was raised on Dodge, Ford, Chevy type of mentality. If the 7.3 was such a good attempt why are these trucks still insanely high in cost for a used vehicle with 175-200k miles? I mean, $15k for a used truck that has 175k on the clock? I only paid $7k more for my truck....6 years ago and it only had 69k on it.

The Duramax, well, some would tend to disagree with your opinion. I was a nay sayer years ago. "Aluminum heads" I would spout, what idiot? The General has since shut my mouth. I do not care for their front suspension or believe it's one ton capability, looks flimsy compared to a Dodge....which looks flimsy compared to a Ford. Everytime somebody comes out with more horsepower the General is there to slap them down by increasing theirs.

"Modern Workhorses", that's funny as well. I know guys who have replace their pumps on the common rails due to failures, a guy with an '07 that had injectors ALL replaced, and a host of other dear god stories about their "modern workhorse".

What you have done in the past has no relevance on what you are doing at this moment. If you built the toughest, longest lasting engine in the world 10, 15 years ago and today it is a offshore built pile of junk it does not matter what people thought about you back then, what they said, it's what they get now. In our discussion about what is the best now, this day, we need to judge the 6.7 Ford, the 6.7 Cummins and the Duramax. All the past, "10 years running" b.s is out the door as it again has no relavance.

Does the past become relevant when considering a vehicle for purchase, sure. You'll look and see how it has performed over the years but that don't mean your gonna get a shiny gold star when you buy one tomorrow. It don't mean that it is still the best today.

I guess the only way to resolve this is to look at current reviews, results for the 3 engines available now, Ford, Chevy and Dodge. Service records, costs, etc. Now the key to that would be finding real numbers that the manufacturer has not altered or modified in any way to come off better than the others. Good luck with that.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:00 AM
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My first diesel is the Ram, 2500, 6.7 auto 6sp, quad cab, HD, SLT, 4x4 with thunder rd package. I researched all big 3 and with Cummins u get 30% less moving parts approx same hp and ft lbs, so far, 56K miles, some sooting problems, have ex warranty and will sell when warranty is out. Truck does what I need and does it well. Sooting a pain but workable. Tow across country, 11-12k, approx 3k miles one way east to west and back every yr. Pulls at any sp I want over any mountain in any weather with ease. Any problems covered under warranty so far but no big ones, all minor. Would not buy any other than Cummins.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by dodgeguy71 View Post
Nice little chart but have we forgotten the vp's? 53 blocks?
Nobody's forgotten bud. And nobody said the 5.9 is without flaws.

Originally Posted by dodgeguy71 View Post
GM's early trials were given a bad name because? Yes, they put them in....Cars. How many people then or today know how to, shut a diesel off? Maintain a diesel? Sure, not a great engine but the customer base was not all seasoned truckers either.
GM's line of diesel's before the Dmax sucked hard. Good on fuel (mostly) and that's about it. Just admit it.

Originally Posted by dodgeguy71 View Post
I remember the first Cummins in the trucks and heard "slobbering pigs", "Comeapart" and all manner of chatter. Seems as though 6.9 as gutless as it was seemed more popular but most would just bypass them all for a good ol' 460 or 454.
Ever occur to you that those "names" may have been given by die-hard ford or chevy guys who were nervous about the competition? If the ford guys were bypassing the 6.9 for gassers, then the 6.9 wasn't as good as the gassers was it? What puller today would trade their Cummins (ANY of the Cummins engines) for a gas job? Besides, the first Cummins were...well...the first ones! Sure they needed work, and yet the Cummins legend began because even in it's flawed glory, it was still the best option of the time..

Originally Posted by dodgeguy71 View Post
7.3's, good attempt, I like that. Think it's an opinion swayed by tunnel vision or should I say "Cummins Vision". Most have their blinders on or their, as I said, "traditional values". I was raised on Dodge, Ford, Chevy type of mentality. If the 7.3 was such a good attempt why are these trucks still insanely high in cost for a used vehicle with 175-200k miles? I mean, $15k for a used truck that has 175k on the clock? I only paid $7k more for my truck....6 years ago and it only had 69k on it.
Anybody wanna trade their 5.9L for a 7.3? No? Nah, didn't think so. They're as expensive as they are because they're the only really good diesel engine Ford's had up till these brand new ones (I hear they're quite a good engine so far). So if you're a real Ford guy, (of which there's a plenty) and want a good diesel in your truck then you have two choices: swap in a Cummins, or find a 7.3. That's what drives up the price. You got a good deal on your truck. An '02? Aaaahhh yes, the 5.9l subject to the VP44 syndrome that you were just complaining about. They're cheaper 'cause they're not quite as good as some of the other engines. Same reason you don't pay big bucks for a 6.0l Ford, and yet, outside of the VP44, the engine lasts..and lasts..and lasts - not like the 6.0.

Originally Posted by dodgeguy71 View Post
What you have done in the past has no relevance on what you are doing at this moment. If you built the toughest, longest lasting engine in the world 10, 15 years ago and today it is a offshore built pile of junk it does not matter what people thought about you back then, what they said, it's what they get now. In our discussion about what is the best now, this day, we need to judge the 6.7 Ford, the 6.7 Cummins and the Duramax. All the past, "10 years running" b.s is out the door as it again has no relavance.
Wooooww Careful about the "b.s." now... There's a lot of guys on here running the old engines. The engines that built Cummins' reputation. Besides, all that talk is to prove one point - Cummins HAS been on top for years and years.
However, yes, I guess you're right, the question being what it is, we need to stick to comparing the newest engines.


Originally Posted by dodgeguy71 View Post
I guess the only way to resolve this is to look at current reviews, results for the 3 engines available now, Ford, Chevy and Dodge. Service records, costs, etc. Now the key to that would be finding real numbers that the manufacturer has not altered or modified in any way to come off better than the others. Good luck with that.
Hey dodgeguy, I got a better idea: Cummins is being and has been used to re-power everything from die-hard owner's Chivies and Phords to farm equipment, boats, etc etc etc.
Once I start seeing die-hard Dodge Men yanking out their Cummins engines and installing Powerstrokes or Duramax's..... Or when I start seeing re-power conversions by the masses to Dmax or Pstrokes..... That would be the point where I may reconsider if I believe Cummins is still top dog.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:56 AM
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Take it easy boys, disagree all you want, but do so civilly.
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:25 PM
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It seems the emotion part of posts can be easily misconstrued. I apologize for being a jerk folks.
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:50 PM
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Great discussion on the Cummins Engine fellas! With that being said, I think this one has about "run it's course!" Thanks to all who posted on this!

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