Compressed Natural Gas (CNG)/Diesel
12-17-2008, 10:57 PM
#16
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So, are you the guy in the magazine article?
When you figure your fuel mileage (diesel) how do you figure in the cost (and gallons consumed - if that's the correct measurement, probably not though) of natural gas?
In other words, if you traveled 330 miles and had to fill your CNG tank again at that point, if you added the cost of the CNG, diesel - and then gallons of diesel and volume of CNG, how much did you really save over traveling just on diesel alone? How much was your actual fuel mileage when you add together the amount of diesel and CNG consumed?
I don't even know how much CNG costs or how it's measured when purchased.
Anyway, your experience confirms the magazine article I read. It sounds like the power is there too.
When you figure your fuel mileage (diesel) how do you figure in the cost (and gallons consumed - if that's the correct measurement, probably not though) of natural gas?
In other words, if you traveled 330 miles and had to fill your CNG tank again at that point, if you added the cost of the CNG, diesel - and then gallons of diesel and volume of CNG, how much did you really save over traveling just on diesel alone? How much was your actual fuel mileage when you add together the amount of diesel and CNG consumed?
I don't even know how much CNG costs or how it's measured when purchased.
Anyway, your experience confirms the magazine article I read. It sounds like the power is there too.
12-24-2008, 01:24 PM
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No, I'm not the guy in the article. I've seen a couple of articles, one featuring a brand new '08 done by another shop here in St. George. My truck turns 10 years old this next year and I just wanted to help a friend's fledgling business/reduce my dependence on foreign oil/pay less at the pump/get more power out of the old girl. I succeeded in everything, although I doubt any mag will want to run an article on a well-used 10-year-old truck!
OK, the way I have the combined mpg figured is this: I add the total gallons consumed (or, for the CNG, the GGE--gallon of gas equivalent) and divide that into the total miles driven, same as figuring out mpg on a single fuel alone.
Keeping in mind we found a leaky CNG fitting allowing some of my CNG to escape, it went something like this (I don't have my receipts in front of me so it's rough numbers): first 330 miles, 65% CNG/45% diesel. Consumed 12.2 +/- GGE CNG and 9.9 +/- gallons diesel. I know I'm off a little 'cause that day I calculated 15.92 combined mpg or something close. Today I'm coming up with just under 15 mpg. This shows an actual DECREASE in overall fuel economy of about 4 mpg over straight diesel but, again, I had a CNG fuel leak I was dealing with.
Still, that 12 gallons or so of CNG cost me something like $10. I probably spent more than that for dinner! It significantly improved my diesel-only mileage, meaning I used much less diesel than I would have normally burned making the trip. Figuring that out at $2.25/gal, and using 19.5 mpg (what I would have probably averaged diesel-only) I would have used approximately 17 gallons of fuel. Remember, I only used just less than 10, so a savings of 7 gallons over 330 miles. So, I paid approximately $22.25 as it was. I WOULD HAVE paid $38.25 or $16.00 more. I paid $10 for the CNG, giving me $6.00 in my pocket when all was said and done.
Wow. Whoopee. Six whole dollars. Well, I'm satisfied that when the kinks are all worked out, it'll be an even bigger savings. This was sort of the "maiden voyage," so I guess I should have expected Murphy's Law. Like, who'd have known about the regulator freezing up from the ridiculously cold weather we had that week?
For full-disclosure purposes, I track CNG consumption for my friend and his advertising efforts but, personally, I could care less about CNG consumption when it costs me less than $20 in CNG to go to Salt Lake and back. It costs me double that to fill up my diesel tank at only half full! (But, I get a whole lot farther on that half-tank than I used to!)
I think my truck might be ready for the 900-mile club one of these days.
OK, the way I have the combined mpg figured is this: I add the total gallons consumed (or, for the CNG, the GGE--gallon of gas equivalent) and divide that into the total miles driven, same as figuring out mpg on a single fuel alone.
Keeping in mind we found a leaky CNG fitting allowing some of my CNG to escape, it went something like this (I don't have my receipts in front of me so it's rough numbers): first 330 miles, 65% CNG/45% diesel. Consumed 12.2 +/- GGE CNG and 9.9 +/- gallons diesel. I know I'm off a little 'cause that day I calculated 15.92 combined mpg or something close. Today I'm coming up with just under 15 mpg. This shows an actual DECREASE in overall fuel economy of about 4 mpg over straight diesel but, again, I had a CNG fuel leak I was dealing with.
Still, that 12 gallons or so of CNG cost me something like $10. I probably spent more than that for dinner! It significantly improved my diesel-only mileage, meaning I used much less diesel than I would have normally burned making the trip. Figuring that out at $2.25/gal, and using 19.5 mpg (what I would have probably averaged diesel-only) I would have used approximately 17 gallons of fuel. Remember, I only used just less than 10, so a savings of 7 gallons over 330 miles. So, I paid approximately $22.25 as it was. I WOULD HAVE paid $38.25 or $16.00 more. I paid $10 for the CNG, giving me $6.00 in my pocket when all was said and done.
Wow. Whoopee. Six whole dollars. Well, I'm satisfied that when the kinks are all worked out, it'll be an even bigger savings. This was sort of the "maiden voyage," so I guess I should have expected Murphy's Law. Like, who'd have known about the regulator freezing up from the ridiculously cold weather we had that week?
For full-disclosure purposes, I track CNG consumption for my friend and his advertising efforts but, personally, I could care less about CNG consumption when it costs me less than $20 in CNG to go to Salt Lake and back. It costs me double that to fill up my diesel tank at only half full! (But, I get a whole lot farther on that half-tank than I used to!)
I think my truck might be ready for the 900-mile club one of these days.
12-24-2008, 02:38 PM
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I can assure you your truck is not going to make its tenth birthday running the mixture your advertising. The stress on your motor from this will cause it to have excessive blowby and oil consumption. If you do 95% diesel and 5% cng or lpg you will actually see mpg go up to 20 - 22 mpg. I can tell you that $6.00 savings each tank will be erased with an engine rebuild.
12-24-2008, 06:06 PM
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I can assure you your truck is not going to make its tenth birthday running the mixture your advertising. The stress on your motor from this will cause it to have excessive blowby and oil consumption. If you do 95% diesel and 5% cng or lpg you will actually see mpg go up to 20 - 22 mpg. I can tell you that $6.00 savings each tank will be erased with an engine rebuild.
12-25-2008, 10:17 AM
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I have seen several high engine hr. LPG, worked on a couple LPG delivery truck engines, but have never seen/heard a high mileage DIESEL engine burning LARGE amounts of CNG or LPG.
12-25-2008, 03:15 PM
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12-26-2008, 12:40 PM
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Actually were talking about running CNG in Diesel engines not CNG engines. Do you have any experience with Diesel engines? I'm trying to understand how a gas that is used in a 16:1 CR engine can run at large percentages in an engine that runs 22:1 CR without eventually doing major harm to it. Now I may not have the experience with CNG engines that you have, but I have plenty of experience with Diesel engines and Diesel engines running LPG and have devistating proof from a couple of truck pullers that ran the percentages you are advertizing. Heck I can't even get them to use a 5-7% mixture that I advocate now because of it. Now you may say there is a difference in characteristics between the two and there is, but the differences are not all that different when running high percentages in a high compression engine.
12-29-2008, 09:17 AM
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Obviously, with any "new," or "alternative," fuel there's going to be questions as to its relative safety, reliability of the equipment, etc. I make no claim that I know the long-term reliability from personal experience but, as I researched my conversion I kept stumbling into one name: Mark DeLuca in the Columbus, OH area. He is, apparently, the go-to guy when it comes to CNG supplementation on diesel engines. I've never talked with him but a number of write-ups in diesel mags and a number of knowledgable resources on-line keep referring to him and his work. He states:
Also, keep in mind the amount of CNG is variable, based on load. At idle and below about 1500 RPM no CNG is being burned. The heavier the load (more vacuum pre-turbo) the more CNG is consumed. It appears, at least in my truck, that enough is drawn in at steady-state freeway speeds of approximately 72-73 mph and 2,000 rpm to replace 60-65% +/- of the diesel it would have burned.
I'm told CNG is much cleaner than diesel fuel as it's primarily methane and should result in a cleaner, more complete burn of both the diesel and the CNG in the combustion chamber. I guess I can't see how that's a bad thing. EGT's look great, coolant temp hasn't changed at all, boost numbers are consistent, so I'm happy that my engine is motoring along happily enough.
So, the long and short is that, after researching it, I'm satisfied my truck's engine won't self-destruct and that I'll enjoy significant savings in fuel in the meantime. By the way, it's interesting to note that Mr. Deluca claims up to 60 mpg diesel-only one a Duramax, 25 mpg CNG. If I wanted to think harder about that, I could figure out what the combined average was with those two mpg added together. It's safe to say, though, that it's more than $6.00/tank and that's where I'll eventually be as we work out the details.
"Compressed natural gas works very well on turbodiesels. It has a very high octane rating which allows the use of a high percentage of gas to diesel. CNG is less expensive than propane, often substantially less, which will reduce operating cost significantly. It offers the same power increase as propane, around 100 horsepower on the current diesel engines from Detroit."
He has, evidently, been running CNG supplementation on D-max's (I'll overlook his engine of choice) for quite some time. I have no idea exactly how many miles but I suspect it's long enough to have achieved the truck's next birthday following conversion and then some. I'd be interested to hear his response to a claim that a truck won't survive one year running CNG.Also, keep in mind the amount of CNG is variable, based on load. At idle and below about 1500 RPM no CNG is being burned. The heavier the load (more vacuum pre-turbo) the more CNG is consumed. It appears, at least in my truck, that enough is drawn in at steady-state freeway speeds of approximately 72-73 mph and 2,000 rpm to replace 60-65% +/- of the diesel it would have burned.
I'm told CNG is much cleaner than diesel fuel as it's primarily methane and should result in a cleaner, more complete burn of both the diesel and the CNG in the combustion chamber. I guess I can't see how that's a bad thing. EGT's look great, coolant temp hasn't changed at all, boost numbers are consistent, so I'm happy that my engine is motoring along happily enough.
So, the long and short is that, after researching it, I'm satisfied my truck's engine won't self-destruct and that I'll enjoy significant savings in fuel in the meantime. By the way, it's interesting to note that Mr. Deluca claims up to 60 mpg diesel-only one a Duramax, 25 mpg CNG. If I wanted to think harder about that, I could figure out what the combined average was with those two mpg added together. It's safe to say, though, that it's more than $6.00/tank and that's where I'll eventually be as we work out the details.
01-07-2009, 10:22 PM
#25
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Obviously, with any "new," or "alternative," fuel there's going to be questions as to its relative safety, reliability of the equipment, etc. I make no claim that I know the long-term reliability from personal experience but, as I researched my conversion I kept stumbling into one name: Mark DeLuca in the Columbus, OH area. He is, apparently, the go-to guy when it comes to CNG supplementation on diesel engines. I've never talked with him but a number of write-ups in diesel mags and a number of knowledgable resources on-line keep referring to him and his work. He states:
Also, keep in mind the amount of CNG is variable, based on load. At idle and below about 1500 RPM no CNG is being burned. The heavier the load (more vacuum pre-turbo) the more CNG is consumed. It appears, at least in my truck, that enough is drawn in at steady-state freeway speeds of approximately 72-73 mph and 2,000 rpm to replace 60-65% +/- of the diesel it would have burned.
I'm told CNG is much cleaner than diesel fuel as it's primarily methane and should result in a cleaner, more complete burn of both the diesel and the CNG in the combustion chamber. I guess I can't see how that's a bad thing. EGT's look great, coolant temp hasn't changed at all, boost numbers are consistent, so I'm happy that my engine is motoring along happily enough.
So, the long and short is that, after researching it, I'm satisfied my truck's engine won't self-destruct and that I'll enjoy significant savings in fuel in the meantime. By the way, it's interesting to note that Mr. Deluca claims up to 60 mpg diesel-only one a Duramax, 25 mpg CNG. If I wanted to think harder about that, I could figure out what the combined average was with those two mpg added together. It's safe to say, though, that it's more than $6.00/tank and that's where I'll eventually be as we work out the details.
"Compressed natural gas works very well on turbodiesels. It has a very high octane rating which allows the use of a high percentage of gas to diesel. CNG is less expensive than propane, often substantially less, which will reduce operating cost significantly. It offers the same power increase as propane, around 100 horsepower on the current diesel engines from Detroit."
He has, evidently, been running CNG supplementation on D-max's (I'll overlook his engine of choice) for quite some time. I have no idea exactly how many miles but I suspect it's long enough to have achieved the truck's next birthday following conversion and then some. I'd be interested to hear his response to a claim that a truck won't survive one year running CNG.Also, keep in mind the amount of CNG is variable, based on load. At idle and below about 1500 RPM no CNG is being burned. The heavier the load (more vacuum pre-turbo) the more CNG is consumed. It appears, at least in my truck, that enough is drawn in at steady-state freeway speeds of approximately 72-73 mph and 2,000 rpm to replace 60-65% +/- of the diesel it would have burned.
I'm told CNG is much cleaner than diesel fuel as it's primarily methane and should result in a cleaner, more complete burn of both the diesel and the CNG in the combustion chamber. I guess I can't see how that's a bad thing. EGT's look great, coolant temp hasn't changed at all, boost numbers are consistent, so I'm happy that my engine is motoring along happily enough.
So, the long and short is that, after researching it, I'm satisfied my truck's engine won't self-destruct and that I'll enjoy significant savings in fuel in the meantime. By the way, it's interesting to note that Mr. Deluca claims up to 60 mpg diesel-only one a Duramax, 25 mpg CNG. If I wanted to think harder about that, I could figure out what the combined average was with those two mpg added together. It's safe to say, though, that it's more than $6.00/tank and that's where I'll eventually be as we work out the details.
01-08-2009, 12:40 PM
#26
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Jay,
The basic design is a tank, two regulators and the plumbing from the second regulator into the intake tract. The first regulator needs to regulate the pressure from the storage pressure (~3000-3600 psi) down to ~200 psi. That first regulator feeds the variable output pressure regulator a constant supply of ~200 psi CNG. The second regulator is basically similar to diaphragm/spring pumps in that vacuum pressure on one side of the diaphragm overcomes spring pressure resulting in a metered flow of the CNG. My regulator has 2 outlet ports and either one or both could be used. These outlet ports are plumbed inot the intake tract which terminates in something similar to a venturi in a carburetor. As air is sucked in by the turbo, the venturi augments the vacuum or whatever it exactly does and the CNG is drawn into the intake tract pre-turbo. I don't know the manufacturers of these two regulators nor the exact settings (what's the proper spring rate in the variable press. regulator for instance) for each nor do I think the venturi-deal in the intake is an off-the-shelf part so I'd recommend talking to someone a whole lot more knowledgable than me about the details, but that's the general concept of operation.
Obviously, I'd like that knowledgable person to be my friend but if you go search for this DeLuca guy he could probably supply you the stuff you need as well. But, give Kevin call and I know he'll do right by you. Four three five, six five six, twenty two-ninety three.
Hope that helps!
Jeremy
The basic design is a tank, two regulators and the plumbing from the second regulator into the intake tract. The first regulator needs to regulate the pressure from the storage pressure (~3000-3600 psi) down to ~200 psi. That first regulator feeds the variable output pressure regulator a constant supply of ~200 psi CNG. The second regulator is basically similar to diaphragm/spring pumps in that vacuum pressure on one side of the diaphragm overcomes spring pressure resulting in a metered flow of the CNG. My regulator has 2 outlet ports and either one or both could be used. These outlet ports are plumbed inot the intake tract which terminates in something similar to a venturi in a carburetor. As air is sucked in by the turbo, the venturi augments the vacuum or whatever it exactly does and the CNG is drawn into the intake tract pre-turbo. I don't know the manufacturers of these two regulators nor the exact settings (what's the proper spring rate in the variable press. regulator for instance) for each nor do I think the venturi-deal in the intake is an off-the-shelf part so I'd recommend talking to someone a whole lot more knowledgable than me about the details, but that's the general concept of operation.
Obviously, I'd like that knowledgable person to be my friend but if you go search for this DeLuca guy he could probably supply you the stuff you need as well. But, give Kevin call and I know he'll do right by you. Four three five, six five six, twenty two-ninety three.
Hope that helps!
Jeremy
Last edited by utvaquero; 01-08-2009 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Wrong info
01-08-2009, 12:50 PM
#27
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Sorry, I forgot to address kit cost. Kevin is looking at approximately a $1,500 price-point for the basic kit, which would include everything you need to be up and running, minus a tank. He can source tanks for you as well and uses and recommends used tanks based on how much cheaper they can be had compared to brand new ones ($1,500-3500 depending on capacity!) He can also provide upgrades at your discretion such as a low-pressure idiot light to let you know when it's time to refill the CNG tank, pyrometer, boost gauge, auto low-or over-pressure shutoff switch, and whatever else he's got in mind. You don't really NEED the upgraded stuff but it's cool, I guess. I already had boost and pyro gauges and I figure most of us probably already do so I opted for the basic setup. I guess you can source used tanks for ~$6-900. Mine was a 7 GGE tank @ 3,600psi and ran about $670. Kevin can install a complete kit on your rig for ~$4,000 with some variables like tank price, upgrade options, etc. Maybe a little cheaper. Turnaround's about about 1 day.
www.dieselcngkit.com
Good luck!
www.dieselcngkit.com
Good luck!
Last edited by utvaquero; 01-08-2009 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Needed to add more info
01-09-2009, 05:02 PM
#28
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Jay,
The basic design is a tank, two regulators and the plumbing from the second regulator into the intake tract. The first regulator needs to regulate the pressure from the storage pressure (~3000-3600 psi) down to ~200 psi. That first regulator feeds the variable output pressure regulator a constant supply of ~200 psi CNG. The second regulator is basically similar to diaphragm/spring pumps in that vacuum pressure on one side of the diaphragm overcomes spring pressure resulting in a metered flow of the CNG. My regulator has 2 outlet ports and either one or both could be used. These outlet ports are plumbed inot the intake tract which terminates in something similar to a venturi in a carburetor. As air is sucked in by the turbo, the venturi augments the vacuum or whatever it exactly does and the CNG is drawn into the intake tract pre-turbo. I don't know the manufacturers of these two regulators nor the exact settings (what's the proper spring rate in the variable press. regulator for instance) for each nor do I think the venturi-deal in the intake is an off-the-shelf part so I'd recommend talking to someone a whole lot more knowledgable than me about the details, but that's the general concept of operation.
Obviously, I'd like that knowledgable person to be my friend but if you go search for this DeLuca guy he could probably supply you the stuff you need as well. But, give Kevin call and I know he'll do right by you. Four three five, six five six, twenty two-ninety three.
Hope that helps!
Jeremy
The basic design is a tank, two regulators and the plumbing from the second regulator into the intake tract. The first regulator needs to regulate the pressure from the storage pressure (~3000-3600 psi) down to ~200 psi. That first regulator feeds the variable output pressure regulator a constant supply of ~200 psi CNG. The second regulator is basically similar to diaphragm/spring pumps in that vacuum pressure on one side of the diaphragm overcomes spring pressure resulting in a metered flow of the CNG. My regulator has 2 outlet ports and either one or both could be used. These outlet ports are plumbed inot the intake tract which terminates in something similar to a venturi in a carburetor. As air is sucked in by the turbo, the venturi augments the vacuum or whatever it exactly does and the CNG is drawn into the intake tract pre-turbo. I don't know the manufacturers of these two regulators nor the exact settings (what's the proper spring rate in the variable press. regulator for instance) for each nor do I think the venturi-deal in the intake is an off-the-shelf part so I'd recommend talking to someone a whole lot more knowledgable than me about the details, but that's the general concept of operation.
Obviously, I'd like that knowledgable person to be my friend but if you go search for this DeLuca guy he could probably supply you the stuff you need as well. But, give Kevin call and I know he'll do right by you. Four three five, six five six, twenty two-ninety three.
Hope that helps!
Jeremy
The web site didn't tell me much so I'll have to give them a call when I have more time.
04-27-2012, 11:03 AM
#29
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Any update on the progress, MPG, or savings of these CNG injection systems?
i have been out of the diesel game due to costs but could be persuaded back in with a decent CNG/diesel system getting mid twenties mpg
i have been out of the diesel game due to costs but could be persuaded back in with a decent CNG/diesel system getting mid twenties mpg
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