B3.3T Jeep YJ
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From: Iowa
My jeep had the 4.2 carb motor, not the 4.0 fuel injected motor. The 4.2 was something like 210 ft-lbs and 112 hp. The B3.3T stock "felt" a little peppier than the 4.2. After intercooling and turning up the fuel the B3.3T is much peppier. I weighed my jeep on a couple different scales (local dump, rock quarry) and with a full tank of fuel, me (190 lbs), hard top and 30 inch all terrain tires it comes to ~3850 lbs.
My 04 Cummins with me weighs about 7850 lbs with 305 hp which is ~ 25.57 lbs/hp. My Jetta is ~3300 with 90 hp which is ~ 36.11 lbs/hp. The jeep is 3850 lbs with ~125 hp which is ~30.8 lbs/hp. So the Jeep is in between the VW and the Cummins in terms of hp. Now let's look at torque.
04 Cummins (555): 14.14 lbs/ft-lbs
Jetta TDI (155): 21.3 lbs/ft-lbs.
Jeep (~320): 12 lbs/ft-lbs.
So the Jeep actually has more torque relative to weight than my other vehicles. Around town the jeep feels faster than the VW and Cummins (mainly because the 6 spd in the Cummins can't be shifted very fast). Passing on the interstate I would say the Cummins feels faster than jeep. At 55 the jeep feels faster than the VW, and 70 the jeep feels about the same as the VW (which I think is due to the horrible wind resistance of the jeep).
I'm completely satisfied with the performance as it stands. The only occassion where I needed all the hp the engine could give (EDIT: all the hp the engine could give in OD to maintain speed, not max hp the engine is capable of -- which whould be higher if I would've down shifted into 4th gear) was once this winter cruising home from work in ~10 F weather, into a 30-35 mph sustained headwind on the interstate going 70 up a hill. I was turning about 2000 rpm's in OD and had it floored and the EGT's never got above 1150 F. My previous calculations of how much hp you need to do 70 into a 30 mph wind (100 mph) shows that I needed well north of 130 hp (when considering wind + rolling resistance + going up a slight incline) -- and it was giving this power at 2000 rpm. You can calculate what the torque would need to be for this and it's more than what my accelerometer runs show (I'm assuming this is because the interstate experience is more like a loaded dyno run where as the accelerometer runs are un-loaded and the engine accelerates so easily it doesn't get loaded down properly).
However, since I still have a little more air than can I presently use (1150 F max EGT's and less boost than the waste gate limit, and if I turn up the max fuel screw much more the rpm's start hanging which in the 1st Gen forums they call getting close to a "run away situation" which is bad news) I am searching for a relatively easy and cheap way to get some extra hp at the higher end of the rpm band. If it's not cheap and easy I'll just stick with what I got . . . I think . . . However I tend to wake up at night thinking about different things to tweak.
My 04 Cummins with me weighs about 7850 lbs with 305 hp which is ~ 25.57 lbs/hp. My Jetta is ~3300 with 90 hp which is ~ 36.11 lbs/hp. The jeep is 3850 lbs with ~125 hp which is ~30.8 lbs/hp. So the Jeep is in between the VW and the Cummins in terms of hp. Now let's look at torque.
04 Cummins (555): 14.14 lbs/ft-lbs
Jetta TDI (155): 21.3 lbs/ft-lbs.
Jeep (~320): 12 lbs/ft-lbs.
So the Jeep actually has more torque relative to weight than my other vehicles. Around town the jeep feels faster than the VW and Cummins (mainly because the 6 spd in the Cummins can't be shifted very fast). Passing on the interstate I would say the Cummins feels faster than jeep. At 55 the jeep feels faster than the VW, and 70 the jeep feels about the same as the VW (which I think is due to the horrible wind resistance of the jeep).
I'm completely satisfied with the performance as it stands. The only occassion where I needed all the hp the engine could give (EDIT: all the hp the engine could give in OD to maintain speed, not max hp the engine is capable of -- which whould be higher if I would've down shifted into 4th gear) was once this winter cruising home from work in ~10 F weather, into a 30-35 mph sustained headwind on the interstate going 70 up a hill. I was turning about 2000 rpm's in OD and had it floored and the EGT's never got above 1150 F. My previous calculations of how much hp you need to do 70 into a 30 mph wind (100 mph) shows that I needed well north of 130 hp (when considering wind + rolling resistance + going up a slight incline) -- and it was giving this power at 2000 rpm. You can calculate what the torque would need to be for this and it's more than what my accelerometer runs show (I'm assuming this is because the interstate experience is more like a loaded dyno run where as the accelerometer runs are un-loaded and the engine accelerates so easily it doesn't get loaded down properly).
However, since I still have a little more air than can I presently use (1150 F max EGT's and less boost than the waste gate limit, and if I turn up the max fuel screw much more the rpm's start hanging which in the 1st Gen forums they call getting close to a "run away situation" which is bad news) I am searching for a relatively easy and cheap way to get some extra hp at the higher end of the rpm band. If it's not cheap and easy I'll just stick with what I got . . . I think . . . However I tend to wake up at night thinking about different things to tweak.
TDIwyse -
I will eventually get around to some more of your engine theory questions.
You stated that you feel that your B3.3T lets you do anything that your 4.0 did before. You are then entirely satisfied with your Jeep's ability to merge into traffic and maintain highway speeds?
I am certain that the engine (either the B3.3T or the QSB3.3) is the one for me, as I have been driving the 2.5L Wrangler since '98. I think that it has sufficient in-town performance but suffers on the freeway with hills and headwinds. I attribute this to poor torque and low revs. Basically the 2.5 and QSB3.3 have similar power ratings, but the 2.5 must spin near 5000rpm to achieve it. I don't have a curve for the QSB3.3, but if it is anything like yours, it makes good power at ~2000 and great torque at ~1500.
In looking for a worthy recipient I'm considering the '04-06 Unlimited Wranglers. I think that once I can get good highway mileage I might like to take it out of town, and in that case the extra wheelbase will be nice on the freeway. I also want to run 31-32" tires. I'm afraid that if I get too carried away I will have a vehicle too heavy for peppy driving with the diesel.
The stock 2.5 with a softop is around 3400 lbs with an operator, giving me about 28 lbs per hp. I figure my tires and hardtop add 200 more. The unlimited would add another 200, and the engine would add another. I'm looking at 4000 pounds going down the road, giving about 36 lb per hp (assuming the stock 110hp Cummins). Compare this with the Viper and Z06 (around 7 lb per hp) or a Ford F250 crewcab diesel (around 21 lb per hp). Theoretically then it would be considerably slower than an empty diesel 3/4ton. Of course this doesn't consider axle ratios, rpms, etc.
On a qualitative basis, how do you feel your Jeep performs relative to other vehicles? I have driven all 3 diesel pickups and would be entirely satisfied with matching that performance.
I will eventually get around to some more of your engine theory questions.
You stated that you feel that your B3.3T lets you do anything that your 4.0 did before. You are then entirely satisfied with your Jeep's ability to merge into traffic and maintain highway speeds?
I am certain that the engine (either the B3.3T or the QSB3.3) is the one for me, as I have been driving the 2.5L Wrangler since '98. I think that it has sufficient in-town performance but suffers on the freeway with hills and headwinds. I attribute this to poor torque and low revs. Basically the 2.5 and QSB3.3 have similar power ratings, but the 2.5 must spin near 5000rpm to achieve it. I don't have a curve for the QSB3.3, but if it is anything like yours, it makes good power at ~2000 and great torque at ~1500.
In looking for a worthy recipient I'm considering the '04-06 Unlimited Wranglers. I think that once I can get good highway mileage I might like to take it out of town, and in that case the extra wheelbase will be nice on the freeway. I also want to run 31-32" tires. I'm afraid that if I get too carried away I will have a vehicle too heavy for peppy driving with the diesel.
The stock 2.5 with a softop is around 3400 lbs with an operator, giving me about 28 lbs per hp. I figure my tires and hardtop add 200 more. The unlimited would add another 200, and the engine would add another. I'm looking at 4000 pounds going down the road, giving about 36 lb per hp (assuming the stock 110hp Cummins). Compare this with the Viper and Z06 (around 7 lb per hp) or a Ford F250 crewcab diesel (around 21 lb per hp). Theoretically then it would be considerably slower than an empty diesel 3/4ton. Of course this doesn't consider axle ratios, rpms, etc.
On a qualitative basis, how do you feel your Jeep performs relative to other vehicles? I have driven all 3 diesel pickups and would be entirely satisfied with matching that performance.
Last edited by TDIwyse; Apr 14, 2007 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Correction to information
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From: Iowa
Excellent question. My jeep is registered as having a gas motor. It was true when I registered it. I don't know the details of the law (called the DOT before the swap and asked about engine swaps and was told it only had to be an engine as new or newer than the model year of the vehicle, but I didn't specify it would be a diesel engine in the question) but it's such a good thing (cleaner emissions than the carb motor that was in it, twice the fuel economy, running on renewable fuel) that I would hope there wouldn't be an issue that couldn't be resolved. However, I somewhat doubt the legal controlling authorities would like it. Somebody is always trying control peoples freedoms. Also, in Iowa there is no vehicle inspection/smog tests.
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From: Iowa
Did some looking at regulations on engine swaps. Found this link where a government official responded to question regarding modifying older vehicles:
http://dodge.adv100.com/dodge/articl....jsp?id=194399
"Basically, if it can be demonstrated that modifications to a vehicle do not cause the vehicle to exceed emission standards, we would not consider the modification to be illegal."
Nice way to sum things up. Of course the term "basically" does not cover all aspects of the law . . .
http://dodge.adv100.com/dodge/articl....jsp?id=194399
"Basically, if it can be demonstrated that modifications to a vehicle do not cause the vehicle to exceed emission standards, we would not consider the modification to be illegal."
Nice way to sum things up. Of course the term "basically" does not cover all aspects of the law . . .
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From: Iowa
Someone PM'd me with a question I thought would be good to add to the public discussion. It was about why I used a lift pump and the implication of an intank fuel pump on a newer model vehicle. Please check my response and correct me if I gave any misinformation.
Good morning
My VW TDI doesn't have a lift pump, it just uses it's VE injection pump to pull fuel from the tank. The Chevy Duramax doesn't use a lift pump either. My Dodge Cummins uses a lift pump and I believe the Ford's use a lift pump.
The specs on the B3.3T talk about not needing a lift pump if there is less than some amount of restriction in the fuel line (don't recall exactly what that was). If there is excess restriction then it recommends one. It also specifies a maximum fuel pressure pushing into the VE pump, so you don't want a high pressure lift pump feeding the VE pump. I wasn't sure what my restriction was, and since I added a second fuel filter/water seperator with a 5um element and run a lot biodiesel (which is slightly thicker than petroleum diesel) I thought I'ld play it safe and add a lift pump. They are nice for priming the system after fuel filter changes. But I don't think a lift pump is necessarily a requirement.
Most gasoline engines with fuel injection use high pressure fuel pumps in the fuel tank. Your pump is probably located in your fuel tank and may not be compatible with diesel fuel. It also most likely feeds a lot of pressure. I would recommend removing the intank pump.
Good morning
My VW TDI doesn't have a lift pump, it just uses it's VE injection pump to pull fuel from the tank. The Chevy Duramax doesn't use a lift pump either. My Dodge Cummins uses a lift pump and I believe the Ford's use a lift pump.
The specs on the B3.3T talk about not needing a lift pump if there is less than some amount of restriction in the fuel line (don't recall exactly what that was). If there is excess restriction then it recommends one. It also specifies a maximum fuel pressure pushing into the VE pump, so you don't want a high pressure lift pump feeding the VE pump. I wasn't sure what my restriction was, and since I added a second fuel filter/water seperator with a 5um element and run a lot biodiesel (which is slightly thicker than petroleum diesel) I thought I'ld play it safe and add a lift pump. They are nice for priming the system after fuel filter changes. But I don't think a lift pump is necessarily a requirement.
Most gasoline engines with fuel injection use high pressure fuel pumps in the fuel tank. Your pump is probably located in your fuel tank and may not be compatible with diesel fuel. It also most likely feeds a lot of pressure. I would recommend removing the intank pump.
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From: Iowa
Regarding the emissions issue of this type of swap and the implications of increasing/decreasing the emissions over the original engine configuration:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/diesel/documents/EPAshort.htm
I found this link where California measured the NOx and PM emissions of various engines. They tested the B3.3 (not the B3.3T), it's down towards the bottom. NOx and PM were .128 g/kw-hr and .13 g/kw-hr. This is .095 g/hp-hr and .097 g/hp-hr. I would assume the B3.3T may be a bit higher but I can't find any data. However, as you will see there's lots of margin for error before getting in emissions trouble . . .
If you would assume traveling at 60 mph needs ~40 hp this would work out to 0.00633 g/ml NOx and 0.0067g/ml PM.
This link gives emission standards from Tier I to Tier II
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld.php
Tier I reguirements were in effect up to ~1997. NOx emission limits were ~ 1g/ml and PM were ~0.1g/ml for Tier I. The B3.3 seems to be substantially below these limits. In fact it appears it would meet Tier II bin II emissions which is cleaner than my VW TDI.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/diesel/documents/EPAshort.htm
I found this link where California measured the NOx and PM emissions of various engines. They tested the B3.3 (not the B3.3T), it's down towards the bottom. NOx and PM were .128 g/kw-hr and .13 g/kw-hr. This is .095 g/hp-hr and .097 g/hp-hr. I would assume the B3.3T may be a bit higher but I can't find any data. However, as you will see there's lots of margin for error before getting in emissions trouble . . .
If you would assume traveling at 60 mph needs ~40 hp this would work out to 0.00633 g/ml NOx and 0.0067g/ml PM.
This link gives emission standards from Tier I to Tier II
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld.php
Tier I reguirements were in effect up to ~1997. NOx emission limits were ~ 1g/ml and PM were ~0.1g/ml for Tier I. The B3.3 seems to be substantially below these limits. In fact it appears it would meet Tier II bin II emissions which is cleaner than my VW TDI.
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From: Iowa
A couple new things to report.
1.) Replaced the jeep’s transmission mount this weekend. Not having much experience with jeeps before this project I had assumed certain aspects of the drivetrain were normal for jeeps. Well, I’m pretty confident the transmission mount was shot when I bought the jeep because the new mount has radically changed the way it drives/feels. All of the driveline vibrations while driving down the road are now gone. Before, at 1500-1700 rpm under load the rear view mirror would have small, rapid vibrations that made it difficult to see out of. That is gone. The jeep previously had a rattle/looseness feel to it, especially under load, at all rpm’s, almost like it was contorting/twisting. Now it feels very solid. It also idles a bit more smoothly now, but it’s still not as good as my VW TDI or the Dodge Cummins.
2.) The engine now has over 10k on it and I did my first oil analysis. The oil was Shell Rotella 5w-40 synthetic CI-4+ and had a little over 5k mls on it. The analysis was done at the local Cat dealership.
Copper 2
Iron 14
Chrome 1
Lead 4
Aluminum 3
Silicon 12
Molybdenum 3
Sodium 3
Magnesium 12
Tin 0
Nickle 0
Zinc 1592
Water Neg
Fuel Neg
Glycol Neg
Soot 0
Oxidation 21
Nitration 0
Sulphur Products 24
Viscosity 14.5
The comments on the sheet are: “Wear values are normal. Water/fuel/glycol are acceptable. Infrared results are acceptable. Resample next interval.”
On the back of the sheet it describes what each of these tests may indicate. The soot value is supposed to be an indicator of combustion efficiency. I was glad to see this being a 0 since most of this oils time was during cold winter weather while running high percentages of biodiesel. The engine seems to be able to handle the slightly thicker viscosity of this fuel pretty well.
Any comments on the oil analysis by those experienced with them would be appreciated since I am not very knowledgeable in this area.
1.) Replaced the jeep’s transmission mount this weekend. Not having much experience with jeeps before this project I had assumed certain aspects of the drivetrain were normal for jeeps. Well, I’m pretty confident the transmission mount was shot when I bought the jeep because the new mount has radically changed the way it drives/feels. All of the driveline vibrations while driving down the road are now gone. Before, at 1500-1700 rpm under load the rear view mirror would have small, rapid vibrations that made it difficult to see out of. That is gone. The jeep previously had a rattle/looseness feel to it, especially under load, at all rpm’s, almost like it was contorting/twisting. Now it feels very solid. It also idles a bit more smoothly now, but it’s still not as good as my VW TDI or the Dodge Cummins.
2.) The engine now has over 10k on it and I did my first oil analysis. The oil was Shell Rotella 5w-40 synthetic CI-4+ and had a little over 5k mls on it. The analysis was done at the local Cat dealership.
Copper 2
Iron 14
Chrome 1
Lead 4
Aluminum 3
Silicon 12
Molybdenum 3
Sodium 3
Magnesium 12
Tin 0
Nickle 0
Zinc 1592
Water Neg
Fuel Neg
Glycol Neg
Soot 0
Oxidation 21
Nitration 0
Sulphur Products 24
Viscosity 14.5
The comments on the sheet are: “Wear values are normal. Water/fuel/glycol are acceptable. Infrared results are acceptable. Resample next interval.”
On the back of the sheet it describes what each of these tests may indicate. The soot value is supposed to be an indicator of combustion efficiency. I was glad to see this being a 0 since most of this oils time was during cold winter weather while running high percentages of biodiesel. The engine seems to be able to handle the slightly thicker viscosity of this fuel pretty well.
Any comments on the oil analysis by those experienced with them would be appreciated since I am not very knowledgeable in this area.
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Still waiting to see if I have an opportunity to get a deal on the QSB3.3.
I'm keeping my eye open for the ideal Wrangler to recieve the engine. I think I'd like to put it in a 2005 Wrangler Unlimited with a manual trans and a 3.07 axle ratio. If anyone has one, you know, collecting dust, let me know.
I'm keeping my eye open for the ideal Wrangler to recieve the engine. I think I'd like to put it in a 2005 Wrangler Unlimited with a manual trans and a 3.07 axle ratio. If anyone has one, you know, collecting dust, let me know.
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From: Gilbert, Az
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From: Englewood, CO
Still waiting to see if I have an opportunity to get a deal on the QSB3.3.
I'm keeping my eye open for the ideal Wrangler to recieve the engine. I think I'd like to put it in a 2005 Wrangler Unlimited with a manual trans and a 3.07 axle ratio. If anyone has one, you know, collecting dust, let me know.
I'm keeping my eye open for the ideal Wrangler to recieve the engine. I think I'd like to put it in a 2005 Wrangler Unlimited with a manual trans and a 3.07 axle ratio. If anyone has one, you know, collecting dust, let me know.
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I don't know if this is legal to post on the forum, but I have a cummins 3.3 crate motor still on the crate it came on just sitting in the corner of the shop. This isn't the classifieds, though it fits perfect here. I bought it to do a conversion on a samurai.. I got caught up building another diesel drag truck, and sold my samurai, lift, tires, etc.. All I have left is the B3.3 motor.. If anyone wants to make me an offer, feel free.. I'm willing to take a loss. Paypal is fine with me..
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From: Iowa
I hit 35 mpg for the first time. The average for my last three fillups is ~32 mpg. The 35 mpg run was during some very nice weather (highs in the 70's to 80's, low humidity, no rain) and included back and forth to work, plus a long drive on partial interstate/county roads to a mountain biking trail near Iowa City (Sugar Bottom). This was on 70-80% biodiesel.
After getting back the oil analysis and seeing the ~0 soot levels I've decided to order a new set of injectors that I plan on modifying the hole size to get more fuel into the engine. The injectors were quoted to me as being $129 each (whole injector, not just the nozzle).
So, my question to the forum is for recommendations on places that can modify injectors. I would really like to get them tested also to see what pressure they fire at, the number/size of openings, etc. Any suggestions?
After getting back the oil analysis and seeing the ~0 soot levels I've decided to order a new set of injectors that I plan on modifying the hole size to get more fuel into the engine. The injectors were quoted to me as being $129 each (whole injector, not just the nozzle).
So, my question to the forum is for recommendations on places that can modify injectors. I would really like to get them tested also to see what pressure they fire at, the number/size of openings, etc. Any suggestions?
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From: port crane, NY
http://www.scheiddiesel.com/index.htm There are others, but Scheid is a good first call
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From: Iowa
Got my injectors. The Cummins dealership had a hard time tracking some down. There were only 4 they could find that were available and had to order them out of Canada. They showed up two at a time a week apart. They are injectors made by Zexel. Will update my picture site soon with the part #'s and what they look like (look just like a Bosch type).
Took them to the Bosch shop today and had them do a pop test to see what their opening pressure is since I couldn't track down any specs for them. The Bosch shop was unable to find a spec for these injectors even with the part number. They tested one injector and it measured at 208 bar or 3016 psi pop pressure. This seems quite high from my recollection of what my TDI's injector pop pressures are (was thinking ~1800-2000 psi).
I am only wanting a relatively small increase in fuel flow so I was leaning toward working with Extrude Hone and using their MicroFlow AFM (abrassive flow maching) process. The guy I talked to quoted a price of $33/nozzle to get a ~15% increase in flow.
Anyone have any experience/comments on MicroFlow AFM process for small increases in injector flow?
Anyone know how to quantify injection timing changes with modifications to pop pressure? Was thinking of lowering the pop pressure slightly (this can be done by adjusting the shims in the injector body) to advance the start of injection. Thinking this would also reduce the wear on the injection pump a bit since it would be pushing less pressure at the injectors. Comments/thoughts?
Took them to the Bosch shop today and had them do a pop test to see what their opening pressure is since I couldn't track down any specs for them. The Bosch shop was unable to find a spec for these injectors even with the part number. They tested one injector and it measured at 208 bar or 3016 psi pop pressure. This seems quite high from my recollection of what my TDI's injector pop pressures are (was thinking ~1800-2000 psi).
I am only wanting a relatively small increase in fuel flow so I was leaning toward working with Extrude Hone and using their MicroFlow AFM (abrassive flow maching) process. The guy I talked to quoted a price of $33/nozzle to get a ~15% increase in flow.
Anyone have any experience/comments on MicroFlow AFM process for small increases in injector flow?
Anyone know how to quantify injection timing changes with modifications to pop pressure? Was thinking of lowering the pop pressure slightly (this can be done by adjusting the shims in the injector body) to advance the start of injection. Thinking this would also reduce the wear on the injection pump a bit since it would be pushing less pressure at the injectors. Comments/thoughts?
