Water Injection
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From: McConnellsburg, PA
From what I gather reading on this thread, water injection on a basic level is a waste of time because it doesnt cool all the cylinders. And also impractical because of the water useage 5-6 gallons an hour wouldnt get me very far if they really use that much water. Maybe I'm not getting the whole picture but thats what it looks like from this discussion. So what's the best way to cool egt's on a truck thats used for hard towing on a regular basis?
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From: Holly Ridge, N.C.
From what I gather reading on this thread, water injection on a basic level is a waste of time because it doesnt cool all the cylinders. And also impractical because of the water useage 5-6 gallons an hour wouldnt get me very far if they really use that much water. Maybe I'm not getting the whole picture but thats what it looks like from this discussion. So what's the best way to cool egt's on a truck thats used for hard towing on a regular basis?
Minwy:
Let me see if I can help you understand this water injection better Sir.
The basic water injection systems like "Snow, Coolingmist, DevilsOwn" etc.
do a VERY good job of keeping the Cummins 5.9 Engine much cooler if you have EGT problems. They are NOT a waste of time! While the placement of the nozzles are important, you also have to take into account the amount of water that will be used by the system on YOUR TRUCK based on how much you will use the water. FWIW,..on my 96' Dodge CTD Pickup with 800+ H.P., I do not use my water all the time, but only when I need it. I have about a three and a half (3 1/2) gallon tank and for me that works well. But, if you are towing heavy and going up and down steep hills and HAVE TO USE THE WATER to stay cool, well then you will need a larger tank as you pointed out. I know a few guys that run big tanks in the beds of their pickups for that reason. There is nothing wrong with that. As I posted earlier, I had a Snow System on my truck initially and it worked very well until I got to about 700 H.P. Once above that, the system ON MY TRUCK, could not keep up. I added more nozzles, but then the pressure (psi) on the RV style pump could not keep up. Therefore,.... that is when I went with my current Scheid Water System with five (5) nozzles placed directly into the cylinder head for maximum cooling effect. As I also said in my other posts, you will need to evaluate what power level you are at, what conditions are your EGT's the highest, how much water do you think you will need based on your trips or driving and then choose a system that will do the best job for you. That may mean going with a large 10-15 gallon tank in the bed if you feel you will use the system that much or installing two (2) of the RV style water pumps or a system that has a water pump like Scheid uses or is capable of higher pressures. Remember that with the CR trucks you can always "back-down" the power if you are using aftermarket programmers or fueling modules.
I hope that helps you some Sir!
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John_P
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From: Pattonville, Texas
As John & Robert have made clear, water injection is beneficial to our "overfueled" CTDs - as well as any forced induction engine with either high intake charge temperature or EGTs.
As a matter of fact, the addition of water to the combustion event is good for any IC engine.
Basically, water dampens the onset of cylinder charge ignition, increases average cylinder pressure, and acts as a catalyst during the last stage of the chemical reaction known as combustion.
Methanol addition in a compression-ignition engine adds fuel timing, which can be problematic with some tunes/parts combinations - although methanol does have a much higher latent heat of evaporation, so it cools the intake charge better than water. If your diesel is already overfueled, I wouldn't blend methanol in the water injection beyond what's required for freeze protection.
Towing with water works well, as long as the system's control scheme is dialed in - the electronic boxes usually found on the upscale kits make it easy.
EGT-driven injection is ideal for towing, since high boost doesn't necessarily mean excessive cylinder temps. The system's on-time for towing should determine tank selection; for example, the pair of 5gph nozzles we use in one of the tow rigs means we can theoretically pull the GN/drag truck with 500rwHP for 1 hour with the 10 gallon SS tank.
Rust inhibitor is required due to the inevitable condensation/puddling inherent to the cylinder head's intake plenum/airhorn design, which was intended to be a dry-flow system. Essentially, the common plenum allows pressure pulses from each cylinder's intake valve closure to condense ("or knock") the water vapor out of suspension. Obviously, the intake tract's severe turns through the plenum are also not conducive to good wet-flow performance.
Pump overhead (pressure differential between injection pump discharge and maximum boost) is also important, as it effects both the quantity & quality of the water spray. Additionally, most kit's pumps are relatively low volume, so running more than 2 nozzles off a single pump often yields diminishing returns.
High-pressure pumps such as Schied's or Haldex work well, with plenty of overhead & volume to adequately feed almost any application.
Water spray quality is usually overlooked during these discussions.
Entry angles approaching 90* to airflow are better at promoting droplet shear, which increases saturation rate.
Droplet size is most important, and a spec I've yet to find for any other system - of course, smaller is better (we use nozzles that generate micron range droplets).
Our CR drag truck, which uses an individual-runner manifold (to isolate pressure pulses) and a large plenum, has 12 water nozzles (1 per intake valve) running off a "weak" injection pump with barely 100psi overhead... since the system is well-designed (excepting the pump, of course!
), we picked up 70HP from straight hose water at 5100' elevation - and the nozzles used were the smallest flow rating available.
As a matter of fact, the addition of water to the combustion event is good for any IC engine.
Basically, water dampens the onset of cylinder charge ignition, increases average cylinder pressure, and acts as a catalyst during the last stage of the chemical reaction known as combustion.
Methanol addition in a compression-ignition engine adds fuel timing, which can be problematic with some tunes/parts combinations - although methanol does have a much higher latent heat of evaporation, so it cools the intake charge better than water. If your diesel is already overfueled, I wouldn't blend methanol in the water injection beyond what's required for freeze protection.
Towing with water works well, as long as the system's control scheme is dialed in - the electronic boxes usually found on the upscale kits make it easy.
EGT-driven injection is ideal for towing, since high boost doesn't necessarily mean excessive cylinder temps. The system's on-time for towing should determine tank selection; for example, the pair of 5gph nozzles we use in one of the tow rigs means we can theoretically pull the GN/drag truck with 500rwHP for 1 hour with the 10 gallon SS tank.
Rust inhibitor is required due to the inevitable condensation/puddling inherent to the cylinder head's intake plenum/airhorn design, which was intended to be a dry-flow system. Essentially, the common plenum allows pressure pulses from each cylinder's intake valve closure to condense ("or knock") the water vapor out of suspension. Obviously, the intake tract's severe turns through the plenum are also not conducive to good wet-flow performance.
Pump overhead (pressure differential between injection pump discharge and maximum boost) is also important, as it effects both the quantity & quality of the water spray. Additionally, most kit's pumps are relatively low volume, so running more than 2 nozzles off a single pump often yields diminishing returns.
High-pressure pumps such as Schied's or Haldex work well, with plenty of overhead & volume to adequately feed almost any application.
Water spray quality is usually overlooked during these discussions.
Entry angles approaching 90* to airflow are better at promoting droplet shear, which increases saturation rate.
Droplet size is most important, and a spec I've yet to find for any other system - of course, smaller is better (we use nozzles that generate micron range droplets).
Our CR drag truck, which uses an individual-runner manifold (to isolate pressure pulses) and a large plenum, has 12 water nozzles (1 per intake valve) running off a "weak" injection pump with barely 100psi overhead... since the system is well-designed (excepting the pump, of course!
), we picked up 70HP from straight hose water at 5100' elevation - and the nozzles used were the smallest flow rating available.
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From: Coeur d'Alene ID
XLR8R - Good write up of the function of the water injection system parts but I wonder about the ability of the system to allow rust to levels that would cause harm. I can't see using rust inhibitor with the water flow rates I used this summer towing from Idaho to Quebec and back. I used about 200 gallons of water and inhibitor would be cost prohibitive at that kind of flow. I always run the engine long enough after injection to ensure the air path is as dry as the atmosphere will allow and only see surface discoloration, yes it is oxidation but it will not form damaging flakes or create a weakness in the structure anytime soon. What do you consider the negative effect of surface oxidation.
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From: Holly Ridge, N.C.
As John & Robert have made clear, water injection is beneficial to our "overfueled" CTDs - as well as any forced induction engine with either high intake charge temperature or EGTs.
As a matter of fact, the addition of water to the combustion event is good for any IC engine.
Basically, water dampens the onset of cylinder charge ignition, increases average cylinder pressure, and acts as a catalyst during the last stage of the chemical reaction known as combustion.
Methanol addition in a compression-ignition engine adds fuel timing, which can be problematic with some tunes/parts combinations - although methanol does have a much higher latent heat of evaporation, so it cools the intake charge better than water. If your diesel is already overfueled, I wouldn't blend methanol in the water injection beyond what's required for freeze protection.
Towing with water works well, as long as the system's control scheme is dialed in - the electronic boxes usually found on the upscale kits make it easy.
EGT-driven injection is ideal for towing, since high boost doesn't necessarily mean excessive cylinder temps. The system's on-time for towing should determine tank selection; for example, the pair of 5gph nozzles we use in one of the tow rigs means we can theoretically pull the GN/drag truck with 500rwHP for 1 hour with the 10 gallon SS tank.
Rust inhibitor is required due to the inevitable condensation/puddling inherent to the cylinder head's intake plenum/airhorn design, which was intended to be a dry-flow system. Essentially, the common plenum allows pressure pulses from each cylinder's intake valve closure to condense ("or knock") the water vapor out of suspension. Obviously, the intake tract's severe turns through the plenum are also not conducive to good wet-flow performance.
Pump overhead (pressure differential between injection pump discharge and maximum boost) is also important, as it effects both the quantity & quality of the water spray. Additionally, most kit's pumps are relatively low volume, so running more than 2 nozzles off a single pump often yields diminishing returns.
High-pressure pumps such as Schied's or Haldex work well, with plenty of overhead & volume to adequately feed almost any application.
Water spray quality is usually overlooked during these discussions.
Entry angles approaching 90* to airflow are better at promoting droplet shear, which increases saturation rate.
Droplet size is most important, and a spec I've yet to find for any other system - of course, smaller is better (we use nozzles that generate micron range droplets).
Our CR drag truck, which uses an individual-runner manifold (to isolate pressure pulses) and a large plenum, has 12 water nozzles (1 per intake valve) running off a "weak" injection pump with barely 100psi overhead... since the system is well-designed (excepting the pump, of course!), we picked up 70HP from straight hose water at 5100' elevation - and the nozzles used were the smallest flow rating available.
As a matter of fact, the addition of water to the combustion event is good for any IC engine.
Basically, water dampens the onset of cylinder charge ignition, increases average cylinder pressure, and acts as a catalyst during the last stage of the chemical reaction known as combustion.
Methanol addition in a compression-ignition engine adds fuel timing, which can be problematic with some tunes/parts combinations - although methanol does have a much higher latent heat of evaporation, so it cools the intake charge better than water. If your diesel is already overfueled, I wouldn't blend methanol in the water injection beyond what's required for freeze protection.
Towing with water works well, as long as the system's control scheme is dialed in - the electronic boxes usually found on the upscale kits make it easy.
EGT-driven injection is ideal for towing, since high boost doesn't necessarily mean excessive cylinder temps. The system's on-time for towing should determine tank selection; for example, the pair of 5gph nozzles we use in one of the tow rigs means we can theoretically pull the GN/drag truck with 500rwHP for 1 hour with the 10 gallon SS tank.
Rust inhibitor is required due to the inevitable condensation/puddling inherent to the cylinder head's intake plenum/airhorn design, which was intended to be a dry-flow system. Essentially, the common plenum allows pressure pulses from each cylinder's intake valve closure to condense ("or knock") the water vapor out of suspension. Obviously, the intake tract's severe turns through the plenum are also not conducive to good wet-flow performance.
Pump overhead (pressure differential between injection pump discharge and maximum boost) is also important, as it effects both the quantity & quality of the water spray. Additionally, most kit's pumps are relatively low volume, so running more than 2 nozzles off a single pump often yields diminishing returns.
High-pressure pumps such as Schied's or Haldex work well, with plenty of overhead & volume to adequately feed almost any application.
Water spray quality is usually overlooked during these discussions.
Entry angles approaching 90* to airflow are better at promoting droplet shear, which increases saturation rate.
Droplet size is most important, and a spec I've yet to find for any other system - of course, smaller is better (we use nozzles that generate micron range droplets).
Our CR drag truck, which uses an individual-runner manifold (to isolate pressure pulses) and a large plenum, has 12 water nozzles (1 per intake valve) running off a "weak" injection pump with barely 100psi overhead... since the system is well-designed (excepting the pump, of course!
), we picked up 70HP from straight hose water at 5100' elevation - and the nozzles used were the smallest flow rating available.XLR8R:
Good post buddy! Thanks for the "back-up!"
---------
John_P
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From: Pattonville, Texas
Well, "Rust never sleeps!".
Operating the engine long enough after water injection ends to allow complete evaporation of any liquid water is good practice, but no guarantee against corrosion. Elevated temperature increases the oxidation rates of most metals, and the cast-iron head (despite it's nickel & graphite content) is no exception. Even humid air forms rust in the absence of a corrosion inhibitor - that's one of the reasons why we ceramic coat all internal air passages of the cylinder head.
Surface oxidation on some metals doesn't present much of problem, because it forms a sacrificial layer that serves to protect the metal substrate from further reaction, but iron oxide is porous and acts as a sponge to collect water molecules.
Based on your empirical observation, you might have to repair something else in the engine before rust eats through the plenum.
Using chemically pure water should reduce oxidation.
Operating the engine long enough after water injection ends to allow complete evaporation of any liquid water is good practice, but no guarantee against corrosion. Elevated temperature increases the oxidation rates of most metals, and the cast-iron head (despite it's nickel & graphite content) is no exception. Even humid air forms rust in the absence of a corrosion inhibitor - that's one of the reasons why we ceramic coat all internal air passages of the cylinder head.
Surface oxidation on some metals doesn't present much of problem, because it forms a sacrificial layer that serves to protect the metal substrate from further reaction, but iron oxide is porous and acts as a sponge to collect water molecules.
Based on your empirical observation, you might have to repair something else in the engine before rust eats through the plenum.
Using chemically pure water should reduce oxidation.
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From: north east
I drilled & taped my Wilson plate as far back as possible & as far forward as possible.
While I was in there I looked down the #6 air passage & I saw some rust.
None where the intake horn mounts.
I am running 1 bottle per 7 gal. of water pump lube.
Looks to me like by the time the water/air gets to the rear passage something changes.
I also drilled & taped the intake horn where the dip stick mounts.
The ports it comes with are drilled and tapped in an area that is way to thick.
(3/4) of an inch . Max as per Devils own is 1/2.
I think I'm going to leave a 14 GPM in the intake horn & install to 5 GPM nozzles in the intake plate.
Any suggestions appreciated.
doug
While I was in there I looked down the #6 air passage & I saw some rust.
None where the intake horn mounts.
I am running 1 bottle per 7 gal. of water pump lube.
Looks to me like by the time the water/air gets to the rear passage something changes.
I also drilled & taped the intake horn where the dip stick mounts.
The ports it comes with are drilled and tapped in an area that is way to thick.
(3/4) of an inch . Max as per Devils own is 1/2.
I think I'm going to leave a 14 GPM in the intake horn & install to 5 GPM nozzles in the intake plate.
Any suggestions appreciated.
doug
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From: Holly Ridge, N.C.
XLR8R - Good write up of the function of the water injection system parts but I wonder about the ability of the system to allow rust to levels that would cause harm. I can't see using rust inhibitor with the water flow rates I used this summer towing from Idaho to Quebec and back. I used about 200 gallons of water and inhibitor would be cost prohibitive at that kind of flow. I always run the engine long enough after injection to ensure the air path is as dry as the atmosphere will allow and only see surface discoloration, yes it is oxidation but it will not form damaging flakes or create a weakness in the structure anytime soon. What do you consider the negative effect of surface oxidation.
Camper Andy:
FWIW,.....I know the rust inhibitors/water pump lubricant solutions do a good job as I have been using them for five years now. Plain and simple,......without them, I had rust in the plenum of my cylinder head! And I always tried to "run the engine for sufficient time" after I used the water, sometimes making long trips on the Interstates to prevent the rust although it was still there.
Now,....you also asked about the "negative effects of surface oxidation." Well, look at it like this. Whether you believe it or not, if that surface (rust) oxidation is on the metal in the water jackets or in the head, IT IS going into the engine.
Finally you mention that the rust inhibitor/water pump lubricant is "cost prohibitive" for you. Also, FWIW,.....as I posted in one of my earlier posts, I use the "Bars Leak" Anti-Rust and Water Pump Lubricant in my system. The last case I bought the cost of each pint was around $1.60 per pint or a little over $19.00 for a case of (12) twelve. I don't consider that to be too bad myself.
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John_P
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From: McConnellsburg, PA
Guys this is VERY VERY good info here!! THANK YOU GUYS FOR ALL THIS!!!
doug60 do you have any pics of your intake plate drilled and tapped? Id like to do this on mine.....
doug60 do you have any pics of your intake plate drilled and tapped? Id like to do this on mine.....
Thread Starter
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From: McConnellsburg, PA
SWEET!!!!!
Ok guys my Devilsown came in and I read over the install instructions and seem pretty easy, im alittle confused on something though..... the kit came with 3 different nozzle sizes and I was wondering why it came with different sizes? The kit came as a dual nozzle setup so why the 3 different sizes?
Nozzle sizes are 5gph,10gph and 14gph.....
Ok guys my Devilsown came in and I read over the install instructions and seem pretty easy, im alittle confused on something though..... the kit came with 3 different nozzle sizes and I was wondering why it came with different sizes? The kit came as a dual nozzle setup so why the 3 different sizes?
Nozzle sizes are 5gph,10gph and 14gph.....
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From: Coeur d'Alene ID
---------------------------------------------------------
Camper Andy:
FWIW,.....I know the rust inhibitors/water pump lubricant solutions do a good job as I have been using them for five years now. Plain and simple,......without them, I had rust in the plenum of my cylinder head! And I always tried to "run the engine for sufficient time" after I used the water, sometimes making long trips on the Interstates to prevent the rust although it was still there.
Now,....you also asked about the "negative effects of surface oxidation." Well, look at it like this. Whether you believe it or not, if that surface (rust) oxidation is on the metal in the water jackets or in the head, IT IS going into the engine.
Finally you mention that the rust inhibitor/water pump lubricant is "cost prohibitive" for you. Also, FWIW,.....as I posted in one of my earlier posts, I use the "Bars Leak" Anti-Rust and Water Pump Lubricant in my system. The last case I bought the cost of each pint was around $1.60 per pint or a little over $19.00 for a case of (12) twelve. I don't consider that to be too bad myself.
---------
John_P
Camper Andy:
FWIW,.....I know the rust inhibitors/water pump lubricant solutions do a good job as I have been using them for five years now. Plain and simple,......without them, I had rust in the plenum of my cylinder head! And I always tried to "run the engine for sufficient time" after I used the water, sometimes making long trips on the Interstates to prevent the rust although it was still there.
Now,....you also asked about the "negative effects of surface oxidation." Well, look at it like this. Whether you believe it or not, if that surface (rust) oxidation is on the metal in the water jackets or in the head, IT IS going into the engine.
Finally you mention that the rust inhibitor/water pump lubricant is "cost prohibitive" for you. Also, FWIW,.....as I posted in one of my earlier posts, I use the "Bars Leak" Anti-Rust and Water Pump Lubricant in my system. The last case I bought the cost of each pint was around $1.60 per pint or a little over $19.00 for a case of (12) twelve. I don't consider that to be too bad myself.
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John_P
I was referring to treating water injection water. Using 15 to 20 gallons of water every time I stop for fuel, I would have to add a significant amount of inhibitor to achieve only marginal levels of protection. The rate at which surface oxidation occurs is really very slow and as XLR8R said I think I will have something else break before the air paths in the head erode away.
I will watch the progress, that's the good thing about working where I do, I have access to some really good borescope equipment and can track things without taking to much apart.
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From: NW Indiana
SWEET!!!!!
Ok guys my Devilsown came in and I read over the install instructions and seem pretty easy, im alittle confused on something though..... the kit came with 3 different nozzle sizes and I was wondering why it came with different sizes? The kit came as a dual nozzle setup so why the 3 different sizes?
Nozzle sizes are 5gph,10gph and 14gph.....
Ok guys my Devilsown came in and I read over the install instructions and seem pretty easy, im alittle confused on something though..... the kit came with 3 different nozzle sizes and I was wondering why it came with different sizes? The kit came as a dual nozzle setup so why the 3 different sizes?
Nozzle sizes are 5gph,10gph and 14gph.....
So you can utilize different total gph... A 5 and 10 nozzle will give you 15gph, while a 10 and 14 will give ya 24.
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Posts: 2,283
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From: Coeur d'Alene ID
SWEET!!!!!
Ok guys my Devilsown came in and I read over the install instructions and seem pretty easy, im alittle confused on something though..... the kit came with 3 different nozzle sizes and I was wondering why it came with different sizes? The kit came as a dual nozzle setup so why the 3 different sizes?
Nozzle sizes are 5gph,10gph and 14gph.....
Ok guys my Devilsown came in and I read over the install instructions and seem pretty easy, im alittle confused on something though..... the kit came with 3 different nozzle sizes and I was wondering why it came with different sizes? The kit came as a dual nozzle setup so why the 3 different sizes?
Nozzle sizes are 5gph,10gph and 14gph.....
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From: McConnellsburg, PA
So you can mix and match to your trucks build and the way you drive. You do not have to run two if you find you get what you want from just say the 10 gph. Just be careful trying the two big ones. If you do not maintain enough pressure the water will not atomize very well.
thanks guys!!