Water Injection
08-03-2009, 05:57 PM
#78
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OK where to go from here
Rob
I am running a 220 pump turned up to 250 2 - 14 nozzles in the wilson horn with good egt reduction. However I am willing to bet that 1 & 6 are running hotter. So I think I will try 3 nozzles in the intake plate spaced as evenly as possible.. What size nozzles should I go with . Im thinking 3 # 7s
Thanks in advance , doug
I am running a 220 pump turned up to 250 2 - 14 nozzles in the wilson horn with good egt reduction. However I am willing to bet that 1 & 6 are running hotter. So I think I will try 3 nozzles in the intake plate spaced as evenly as possible.. What size nozzles should I go with . Im thinking 3 # 7s
Thanks in advance , doug
08-03-2009, 06:17 PM
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Ace:
No offense to you Sir, but I have read through the posts here between you and Robert (Rpainter) here and I find it strange that you don't seem to believe what he is saying to you about the rust that can be caused by these water systems.
FWIW,...as Robert already pointed out in a previous post to you, I also had trouble with rust in my cylinder head twice, when using JUST water, or a combination of water and methanol. You asked where the rust was? On my truck it was mainly in the intake plenum in the cylinder head. I had the rust while running the Snow Performance Water System with two (2) .625ml nozzles placed in the intake horn on the engine. Scheid Diesel found the rust when they built the engine up for more power and recommended to me to start using a water pump/anti-rust additive such as NAPA's "Number 13" or "Bars Leak" Water Pump/Anti-Rust Additive in with my distilled water. I can tell you that since doing that, I have not had anymore rust problems!
At this time I have a "Scheid Water Injection System" with a 1,000psi max pump and also five (5) nozzles which are machined directly into the cylinder head. Most, if not all, of the engines Scheid builds for the sled pulling trucks also have Scheids Water Systems and they are running more pressure than me with as many as twelve (12) nozzles in the engine! Those trucks will go through as much as one to one and a half gallons of water in 300 feet!
ALL of those trucks/engines also use an additive as I described above to prevent rust formation in those engines. Any of you that don't believe that can call Scheid Diesel and ask them for yourself.
In the discussions here in this thread about "cool down" and water not evaporating inside the engine, I would agree that using the water and then shutting down the engine shortly thereafter is NOT GOOD and would contribute to the problem of rust. As Robert pointed out, driving your trucks after using the water for some distance will help get the water out through evaporation, but I realize that is not always possible.
Another point brought up here is about the "cooling effects" of water on the cylinders. As Robert has told everyone here, the systems tend to keep cylinders 2,3, and 4 fairly cool depending on the system you are using.
In my testing on Scheid's Engine Dyno, we found that my Snow System with the two .625ml nozzles in the intake horn, were keeping cylinders 2,3 and 4 fairly cool, but cylinders 1,5 and 6 were getting way too hot. When a thrid nozzle was added, the pressure on the Snow RV Water Type Pump (200psi)
would drop to an alarmingly low 130-140psi! So,.....because of that and to save my engine, I bought and had Scheid install their high pressure system which has worked great. BTW,.....all of this testing was done with CORSA Engine Diaganostic System with temeprature probes on each cylinder!
Finally,.....let me say this and in no way is this to disrespect anyone Member here. Robert Painter has been running his water systems for quite some time on his truck. Like me, he has ALOT of "trial and error" with his set-ups and has had to "tune" his system to his needs. IMHO,.....he is knowledgeable on the subject of water injection and has alot of experience on this subject.
I want to thank him for all of his input over the years on DTR!
Thanks Robert!
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John_P
Ace:
No offense to you Sir, but I have read through the posts here between you and Robert (Rpainter) here and I find it strange that you don't seem to believe what he is saying to you about the rust that can be caused by these water systems.
FWIW,...as Robert already pointed out in a previous post to you, I also had trouble with rust in my cylinder head twice, when using JUST water, or a combination of water and methanol. You asked where the rust was? On my truck it was mainly in the intake plenum in the cylinder head. I had the rust while running the Snow Performance Water System with two (2) .625ml nozzles placed in the intake horn on the engine. Scheid Diesel found the rust when they built the engine up for more power and recommended to me to start using a water pump/anti-rust additive such as NAPA's "Number 13" or "Bars Leak" Water Pump/Anti-Rust Additive in with my distilled water. I can tell you that since doing that, I have not had anymore rust problems!
At this time I have a "Scheid Water Injection System" with a 1,000psi max pump and also five (5) nozzles which are machined directly into the cylinder head. Most, if not all, of the engines Scheid builds for the sled pulling trucks also have Scheids Water Systems and they are running more pressure than me with as many as twelve (12) nozzles in the engine! Those trucks will go through as much as one to one and a half gallons of water in 300 feet!
ALL of those trucks/engines also use an additive as I described above to prevent rust formation in those engines. Any of you that don't believe that can call Scheid Diesel and ask them for yourself.
In the discussions here in this thread about "cool down" and water not evaporating inside the engine, I would agree that using the water and then shutting down the engine shortly thereafter is NOT GOOD and would contribute to the problem of rust. As Robert pointed out, driving your trucks after using the water for some distance will help get the water out through evaporation, but I realize that is not always possible.
Another point brought up here is about the "cooling effects" of water on the cylinders. As Robert has told everyone here, the systems tend to keep cylinders 2,3, and 4 fairly cool depending on the system you are using.
In my testing on Scheid's Engine Dyno, we found that my Snow System with the two .625ml nozzles in the intake horn, were keeping cylinders 2,3 and 4 fairly cool, but cylinders 1,5 and 6 were getting way too hot. When a thrid nozzle was added, the pressure on the Snow RV Water Type Pump (200psi)
would drop to an alarmingly low 130-140psi!
So,.....because of that and to save my engine, I bought and had Scheid install their high pressure system which has worked great. BTW,.....all of this testing was done with CORSA Engine Diaganostic System with temeprature probes on each cylinder!Finally,.....let me say this and in no way is this to disrespect anyone Member here. Robert Painter has been running his water systems for quite some time on his truck. Like me, he has ALOT of "trial and error" with his set-ups and has had to "tune" his system to his needs. IMHO,.....he is knowledgeable on the subject of water injection and has alot of experience on this subject.
I want to thank him for all of his input over the years on DTR!
Thanks Robert!
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John_P
08-03-2009, 06:29 PM
#80
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Rob
I am running a 220 pump turned up to 250 2 - 14 nozzles in the wilson horn with good egt reduction. However I am willing to bet that 1 & 6 are running hotter. So I think I will try 3 nozzles in the intake plate spaced as evenly as possible.. What size nozzles should I go with . Im thinking 3 # 7s
Thanks in advance , doug
I am running a 220 pump turned up to 250 2 - 14 nozzles in the wilson horn with good egt reduction. However I am willing to bet that 1 & 6 are running hotter. So I think I will try 3 nozzles in the intake plate spaced as evenly as possible.. What size nozzles should I go with . Im thinking 3 # 7s
Thanks in advance , doug
I would try a 3 or 4 gph at each end and maybe a 8 or 10 into the intake horn
08-03-2009, 07:21 PM
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08-03-2009, 07:43 PM
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08-03-2009, 07:53 PM
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That's kinda what I was getting at. I'm very new to this whole water thing. Truck doesn't sputter or miss when the second stage comes on. According to the Cooling Mist site, each stage injects 25.6 GPH. Each nozzle is rated at 16 GPH @ 250 PSI and I'm running the pumps at the factory pre-set of 200 PSI.
It seems like a lot doesn't it?
It seems like a lot doesn't it?
08-03-2009, 08:18 PM
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ok guys, sorry to show my ignorance. but where exactly are ya'll injecting the water? im seeing intake plate, intake manifold, intake horn... are all of these the same locations?? im trying to gather as much info on this as i can since my twin kit will be in this week and i cant afford to melt pistons. thanks guys!
08-03-2009, 08:29 PM
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I think most of us are injecting in the intake horn as of now. I will probably be switching to the intake plate above the plenum on the side of the head. (what the intake horn bolts to)
08-03-2009, 08:41 PM
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I would guess the only question is how much do you want to spend? I would say the best kit would be one of the ones like Scheid's builds for the sled pulling trucks. I believe they run 1k psi pumps.
I bought this one from Cooling Mist because of the dual 250 PSI pumps. Is it the best??????? For the money, It was the best for what I had to spend.
I bought this one from Cooling Mist because of the dual 250 PSI pumps. Is it the best??????? For the money, It was the best for what I had to spend.
08-03-2009, 08:58 PM
#89
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No offense to you either, John, but I don't believe you understood what I said either:
Of course I believe a system spraying gallons of water at a go in a multi-nozzled in-the-head/manifold setup like you are talking about with otherwise untreated water could (obviously does) cause rust. What else would you expect?
Any system leaving unburt or unvaporized water in the engine after injection is ovbiously going to do this. And it follows of course, if you are going to do that, then you do need an anti-rust additive. And frequent oil changes. And the occasional rod and/or new block when an unintended side effect happens to occur after the miscalibrated or poorly designed system ventilates the cylinder wall with a rod for you.
You guys are on the hairy edge of experimentation with this stuff. Great - more power to you! I mean that literally.
If you ever get it "right" (and I use that term loosely - please define "right" however you choose to have your truck running, drinking, whatever), you will have all six cylinders runnnig cool at the same temp at WOT and no water leftover in your engine after a good spray. The anti-rust is a band-aid for a symptom nothing other than a throw-away engine should ever be subjected to.
Now please, also tell Bswope exactly how to get it right! (the way he likes it)
Of course I believe a system spraying gallons of water at a go in a multi-nozzled in-the-head/manifold setup like you are talking about with otherwise untreated water could (obviously does) cause rust. What else would you expect?
Any system leaving unburt or unvaporized water in the engine after injection is ovbiously going to do this. And it follows of course, if you are going to do that, then you do need an anti-rust additive. And frequent oil changes. And the occasional rod and/or new block when an unintended side effect happens to occur after the miscalibrated or poorly designed system ventilates the cylinder wall with a rod for you.
You guys are on the hairy edge of experimentation with this stuff. Great - more power to you! I mean that literally.
If you ever get it "right" (and I use that term loosely - please define "right" however you choose to have your truck running, drinking, whatever), you will have all six cylinders runnnig cool at the same temp at WOT and no water leftover in your engine after a good spray. The anti-rust is a band-aid for a symptom nothing other than a throw-away engine should ever be subjected to.
Now please, also tell Bswope exactly how to get it right! (the way he likes it)
Ace:
Again, no disrespect to you Sir, but I do believe I know exactly what you have said as I have read all the posts between you and Robert.
Now,....to set the record straight, here is what I said in my earlier post:
__________________________________________________ _______________
Quote by John_P:
"I had the rust while running the Snow Performance Water System with two
(2) .625ml nozzles placed in the intake horn on the engine. Scheid Diesel found the rust when they built the engine up for more power and recommended............................"
__________________________________________________ _______
THAT is what I said Ace. The rust found in my cylinder head was with the SNOW SYSTEM,.....NOT the Scheid System I have now! As I also TRIED to explain to you and the Members here, is the Snow System was NOT cooling the engine enough to keep my EGT's down! So,....to prevent a "meltdown" of an expensive engine, I then upgraded to the Scheid Water System! Also not noted by me in my previous post, was that I initially ran only ONE (1) .625ml nozzle at first, but later added the second nozzle due to the EGT's. The water was ONLY used when I needed it, not a daily basis and yet the rust STILL showed up with a water system a fraction of what I have now!
Let me also correct you on your assertion that my water system may be "miscalibrated" Sir! I think not!
I would say that my good friends at Scheid Diesel have great knowledge on that and that is evidenced by the excellent way in which the engine runs under WOT in not only keeping the engine cool on very hot days but also by the evidence of the CORSA System Diagnostics that have hooked up to each and every cylinder on the engine dyno to make darn sure those settings are right Ace! I can also assure you Ace that my engine was NOT set-up or built to be a "throwaway" as you put it!You are entitled to your opinion here Sir and you can also criticize our use of the water additive, but the fact remains that the rust was there without it and IMHO the rust will cause more problems than the additive ever will! I can prove that by the number of miles I have on my truck running water injection.
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John_P
08-03-2009, 09:00 PM
#90
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Bswope:
You are very welcome Sir!
I am glad we were able to help you guys, even though Ace disagrees with us!