Traction bars(pics)
10-28-2008, 10:56 AM
#31
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He has choices for your needs. But the pics just don't do justice for what you get, you really do have to see and hold to fully appreciate how well made they are.
10-28-2008, 10:59 AM
#32
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sweet the wife is always saying we need money for craxy stuff like rent and food but i dont belive her... she was thrilled when i ordered my garret and now this hehehe what is rent?
10-28-2008, 11:02 AM
#33
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I thought they would bind at full articulation too but Mike showed me a pick of a guy that was in a ditch at full articulation and they did not bind.
The LazarIIs allowed me to keep full articulation, better cornering, keep the rear axle centered in the wheel well during flex to clear the 37" tires, and improve life of the u-joints as well!
If anyone's doubtin, jus gettum, and you'll be a believer :-)
--Eric
10-28-2008, 11:10 AM
#34
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Essentially, the level of ride comfort/superior handling rises faster than the leaf pack deflection-induced effective spring rate increase.
Think of the traction bar/leaf pack as a variable-rate suspension... might make more sense.
10-28-2008, 11:16 AM
#35
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Here is a example of properly functioing traction bar system.. By no means am I pushing their product, but this is the only company I have seen that incorporates a shackle... For those who don't haul much or put much weight in the bed, a fixed trac bar will be ok... Don't see it improving the ride on rough roads, but i've never ran a fixed track bar... So I can not nock it... But, anybody that knows how a suspesion system is supposed to work will agree, you will have bind with a fixed trac bar...
http://www.rizeind.com/03products/04...c_dodge01.html
http://www.rizeind.com/03products/04...c_dodge01.html
10-28-2008, 11:33 AM
#36
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There are (or have been) other companies that incorporate shackles.
Again, the traction bars increase the effective spring rate, so they do indeed increase the rear suspension's load capacity.
A track bar laterally locates the axle.
There is no bind with correctly-designed geometry...
Again, the traction bars increase the effective spring rate, so they do indeed increase the rear suspension's load capacity.
A track bar laterally locates the axle.
There is no bind with correctly-designed geometry...
10-28-2008, 03:52 PM
#37
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Yep, that guy was me!
The LazarIIs allowed me to keep full articulation, better cornering, keep the rear axle centered in the wheel well during flex to clear the 37" tires, and improve life of the u-joints as well!
If anyone's doubtin, jus gettum, and you'll be a believer :-)
--Eric
The LazarIIs allowed me to keep full articulation, better cornering, keep the rear axle centered in the wheel well during flex to clear the 37" tires, and improve life of the u-joints as well!
If anyone's doubtin, jus gettum, and you'll be a believer :-)
--Eric
10-28-2008, 04:35 PM
#38
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That was a sweet pic...do you still have it and if so will you post it? It explains a lot!
The suspension is definately not binding anywhere, and the flex is pretty admirable for a 1-ton truck with increased load carrying capacity!
Before the XLR8R traction bars, the 37" rear tires would contact the front of the fenderwell badly. However, after adding the bars and adjusting, notice how perfectly the 37" Toyo stuffs into the fenderwell!
--Eric
10-28-2008, 06:21 PM
#39
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Here is a example of properly functioing traction bar system.. By no means am I pushing their product, but this is the only company I have seen that incorporates a shackle... For those who don't haul much or put much weight in the bed, a fixed trac bar will be ok... Don't see it improving the ride on rough roads, but i've never ran a fixed track bar... So I can not nock it... But, anybody that knows how a suspesion system is supposed to work will agree, you will have bind with a fixed trac bar...
http://www.rizeind.com/03products/04...c_dodge01.html
http://www.rizeind.com/03products/04...c_dodge01.html
I didnt see a price on the link?
10-29-2008, 08:48 AM
#40
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I probably posted that our traction bars increased the effective spring rate... since that's what I've been preaching for years.
Essentially, the level of ride comfort/superior handling rises faster than the leaf pack deflection-induced effective spring rate increase.
Think of the traction bar/leaf pack as a variable-rate suspension... might make more sense.
Essentially, the level of ride comfort/superior handling rises faster than the leaf pack deflection-induced effective spring rate increase.
Think of the traction bar/leaf pack as a variable-rate suspension... might make more sense.
Like I said above, I've never seen a traction bar or link system on another vehicle change the spring rates at all...unless it was a poor design that was binding somewhere.
There are (or have been) other companies that incorporate shackles.
Again, the traction bars increase the effective spring rate, so they do indeed increase the rear suspension's load capacity.
A track bar laterally locates the axle.
There is no bind with correctly-designed geometry...
Again, the traction bars increase the effective spring rate, so they do indeed increase the rear suspension's load capacity.
A track bar laterally locates the axle.
There is no bind with correctly-designed geometry...
A "track bar" locates the axle laterally, but a "traction bar" does not. The leaf spring itself is what locates the axle in a leaf-sprung suspension. The traction bar is there simply to prevent axle wrap. A traction bar is not going to change the axle's location on the leaf spring center pin.
There's just no magical way for these bars to do these things that all other traction bars don't do. Other traction bars don't move the axle back under compression...other bars don't increase the load carry capacity of the suspension...other bars don't increase the spring rates and give a stiffer ride (which somehow gives a smoother ride on rough surfaces
). It's not rocket science and it's not magic...it's a single traction bar that helps prevent wheel hop from axle wrap. Any other "benefits" must come from some binding somewhere.
10-29-2008, 10:42 AM
#41
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So how did the traction bar change the center pin location on the leaf springs? The only way the bar can move the axle/tire backward is by binding and letting the shackle absorb the movement to the rear. Nobody can tell by the pics that there isn't any binding going on. Things will still flex/bend after they bind, but eventually something will break if there's any binding.
No, the traction bar doesn't change the centering pin. However, in the stock configuration, the rear axle does not travel straight up and down as the suspension flexes. The front of the leaf spring is a fixed pivot, and the rear of the spring is on a revolving shackle. Thus, as the suspension is compressed, the axle moves up and back in relation to the fenderwell. As the suspension is extended, it moves down and forward... Does that make any sense?
When you have alot of rear-wheel travel, this becomes more pronounced. Furthermore, when you have a lift in the rear (higher arched springs, etc) this becomes more pronounced as well.
For example, when I came up my driveway (steep incline), my tire would hit badly everytime on the front of the rear fender...although it was just for a brief period under extension of the suspension, it was enough to wear through the fender flare in a short time.
The traction bars come in different lengths. You attach one end of the bar to the bottom of the rear axle beneath the shocks. The other end attaches to the frame, some distance toward the front of the truck. This distance determines the new "swing motion" of the rear axle. In other words, the rear axle now is only allowed to move up and down, with very little front to back movement...the amount it's allowed to move front and back is constrained by the arc of the circle having a radius of the length of the traction bar...at least simply speaking.
Ok, so by preloading the traction bar, you can effectively center the rear tire in the fenderwell, by "pushing" the axle back in the fenderwell, or "pulling" it forward to allow proper clearance.
There's just no magical way for these bars to do these things that all other traction bars don't do. Other traction bars don't move the axle back under compression...other bars don't increase the load carry capacity of the suspension...other bars don't increase the spring rates and give a stiffer ride (which somehow gives a smoother ride on rough surfaces ). It's not rocket science and it's not magic
I'm sorry if this is kindof confusing, but it's one of those things that is much easier seen than explained with words. Sometimes I just lay under the truck looking at stuff and thinking about how everything works together. The heims on the end of the traction bar prevents things from "binding". However, there must be some definition given to binding.
The way in which I'm thinking about binding, is that the articulation after the addition of the traction bars is the same as before adding them...thus, there is no "binding" of the bars that prevents flexing of the rear suspension. However, there is "binding" in the sense that the bars are subjected to compressive and tensile forces, and thus, transferring load to the frame.
No, there's nothing magic about this, and it's not to say that other traction bars don't accomplish the same thing. The Lazarsmith traction bars just happen to work very well, and are designed and built extremely rugged. I recently hauled a very heavy load of firewood that placed 8,600 lbs of weight on the rear axle. Obviously, this overloaded practically everything on the truck, but with the traction bars and Carli bags, the truck handled it fine.
The other positive effect the traction bars have is to keep the axle from twisting, or causing axle wrap...thus preserving life of the u-joints.
Maybe this makes some sense...I'm sure Mike will chime in if a better explanation is needed. In short, these bars aren't magic, they're just very well built, and get the job done!
--Eric
10-29-2008, 11:31 AM
#42
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However, there must be some definition given to binding.
The way in which I'm thinking about binding, is that the articulation after the addition of the traction bars is the same as before adding them...thus, there is no "binding" of the bars that prevents flexing of the rear suspension. However, there is "binding" in the sense that the bars are subjected to compressive and tensile forces, and thus, transferring load to the frame.
--Eric
The way in which I'm thinking about binding, is that the articulation after the addition of the traction bars is the same as before adding them...thus, there is no "binding" of the bars that prevents flexing of the rear suspension. However, there is "binding" in the sense that the bars are subjected to compressive and tensile forces, and thus, transferring load to the frame.
--Eric
10-29-2008, 01:47 PM
#44
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Hmmm, well i'm not the best one to try to explain this by far, but here goes...
No, the traction bar doesn't change the centering pin. However, in the stock configuration, the rear axle does not travel straight up and down as the suspension flexes. The front of the leaf spring is a fixed pivot, and the rear of the spring is on a revolving shackle. Thus, as the suspension is compressed, the axle moves up and back in relation to the fenderwell. As the suspension is extended, it moves down and forward... Does that make any sense?
When you have alot of rear-wheel travel, this becomes more pronounced. Furthermore, when you have a lift in the rear (higher arched springs, etc) this becomes more pronounced as well.
For example, when I came up my driveway (steep incline), my tire would hit badly everytime on the front of the rear fender...although it was just for a brief period under extension of the suspension, it was enough to wear through the fender flare in a short time.
The traction bars come in different lengths. You attach one end of the bar to the bottom of the rear axle beneath the shocks. The other end attaches to the frame, some distance toward the front of the truck. This distance determines the new "swing motion" of the rear axle. In other words, the rear axle now is only allowed to move up and down, with very little front to back movement...the amount it's allowed to move front and back is constrained by the arc of the circle having a radius of the length of the traction bar...at least simply speaking.
Ok, so by preloading the traction bar, you can effectively center the rear tire in the fenderwell, by "pushing" the axle back in the fenderwell, or "pulling" it forward to allow proper clearance.
So now that the traction bar has a hold of the rear axle, it dictates the arc that the axle travels under compression/extension...and as such, the traction bar is constantly being placed in compression and tension as the suspension cycles. I believe as the truck is loaded heavily, the traction bar is being pulled in tension. If you were to do a free body diagram, and look at the x and y forces exerted in this member, you would see a portion of the load over the rear axle being transferred to the frame by the traction bar.
I'm sorry if this is kindof confusing, but it's one of those things that is much easier seen than explained with words. Sometimes I just lay under the truck looking at stuff and thinking about how everything works together. The heims on the end of the traction bar prevents things from "binding". However, there must be some definition given to binding.
The way in which I'm thinking about binding, is that the articulation after the addition of the traction bars is the same as before adding them...thus, there is no "binding" of the bars that prevents flexing of the rear suspension. However, there is "binding" in the sense that the bars are subjected to compressive and tensile forces, and thus, transferring load to the frame.
No, there's nothing magic about this, and it's not to say that other traction bars don't accomplish the same thing. The Lazarsmith traction bars just happen to work very well, and are designed and built extremely rugged. I recently hauled a very heavy load of firewood that placed 8,600 lbs of weight on the rear axle. Obviously, this overloaded practically everything on the truck, but with the traction bars and Carli bags, the truck handled it fine.
The other positive effect the traction bars have is to keep the axle from twisting, or causing axle wrap...thus preserving life of the u-joints.
Maybe this makes some sense...I'm sure Mike will chime in if a better explanation is needed. In short, these bars aren't magic, they're just very well built, and get the job done!
--Eric
No, the traction bar doesn't change the centering pin. However, in the stock configuration, the rear axle does not travel straight up and down as the suspension flexes. The front of the leaf spring is a fixed pivot, and the rear of the spring is on a revolving shackle. Thus, as the suspension is compressed, the axle moves up and back in relation to the fenderwell. As the suspension is extended, it moves down and forward... Does that make any sense?
When you have alot of rear-wheel travel, this becomes more pronounced. Furthermore, when you have a lift in the rear (higher arched springs, etc) this becomes more pronounced as well.
For example, when I came up my driveway (steep incline), my tire would hit badly everytime on the front of the rear fender...although it was just for a brief period under extension of the suspension, it was enough to wear through the fender flare in a short time.
The traction bars come in different lengths. You attach one end of the bar to the bottom of the rear axle beneath the shocks. The other end attaches to the frame, some distance toward the front of the truck. This distance determines the new "swing motion" of the rear axle. In other words, the rear axle now is only allowed to move up and down, with very little front to back movement...the amount it's allowed to move front and back is constrained by the arc of the circle having a radius of the length of the traction bar...at least simply speaking.
Ok, so by preloading the traction bar, you can effectively center the rear tire in the fenderwell, by "pushing" the axle back in the fenderwell, or "pulling" it forward to allow proper clearance.
So now that the traction bar has a hold of the rear axle, it dictates the arc that the axle travels under compression/extension...and as such, the traction bar is constantly being placed in compression and tension as the suspension cycles. I believe as the truck is loaded heavily, the traction bar is being pulled in tension. If you were to do a free body diagram, and look at the x and y forces exerted in this member, you would see a portion of the load over the rear axle being transferred to the frame by the traction bar.
I'm sorry if this is kindof confusing, but it's one of those things that is much easier seen than explained with words. Sometimes I just lay under the truck looking at stuff and thinking about how everything works together. The heims on the end of the traction bar prevents things from "binding". However, there must be some definition given to binding.
The way in which I'm thinking about binding, is that the articulation after the addition of the traction bars is the same as before adding them...thus, there is no "binding" of the bars that prevents flexing of the rear suspension. However, there is "binding" in the sense that the bars are subjected to compressive and tensile forces, and thus, transferring load to the frame.
No, there's nothing magic about this, and it's not to say that other traction bars don't accomplish the same thing. The Lazarsmith traction bars just happen to work very well, and are designed and built extremely rugged. I recently hauled a very heavy load of firewood that placed 8,600 lbs of weight on the rear axle. Obviously, this overloaded practically everything on the truck, but with the traction bars and Carli bags, the truck handled it fine.
The other positive effect the traction bars have is to keep the axle from twisting, or causing axle wrap...thus preserving life of the u-joints.
Maybe this makes some sense...I'm sure Mike will chime in if a better explanation is needed. In short, these bars aren't magic, they're just very well built, and get the job done!
--Eric
What I'm saying is that the leaf spring (via the center pin) is what locates the axle. The traction bar is simply along for the ride. If the bar is interfering with the axle/spring's range of motion then it IS binding somewhere. The bars can't just magically relocate the axle on the springs. If the tire is moving in a different path then the bar is binding and either not allow full articulation or the leaf spring is bending to "absorb" the tension. Where do you think the tension goes when the bar no longer allows the axle to move forward and backward as the spring cycles? Sure it goes to the frame where the bar is mounted, but it also goes to the leaf spring and spring mount. Luckily our leafs are VERY stiff so they probably won't bend.
Binding can be caused by twisting during articulation, or by not allowing the axle to move back as the spring compresses and forward as it droops. This is the exact reason that many people use a shackle and triangulated traction bar design. The shackle allows the bar to move forward and backward with the spring/axle's range of motion and the triangulation does not allow the axle to wrap at all. With this kind of setup there is no increase in spring rate because nothing is binding.
I could see using a single bar like this for sled pulling and maybe drag racing, but if the result is an even stiffer rear suspension then I couldn't handle it for daily driving.
10-29-2008, 01:53 PM
#45
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Since you claim these bars "increase the rear suspensions load capacity", can you tell us by how much they increase the capacity? I know it will vary depending on the setup, but how about a ballpark number for those with stock rear springs?