Modified camshaft sensor?
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Tomball, Texas
Superduty,
I say go for it!
Update:
BTW, here's the two codes I'm thinking of:
P0016 Crankshaft/Camshaft Timing Misalignment/Out-of-Sync
P0341 Camshaft Position Sensor Performance / Rationality
MikeyB
I say go for it!
Update:
BTW, here's the two codes I'm thinking of:
P0016 Crankshaft/Camshaft Timing Misalignment/Out-of-Sync
P0341 Camshaft Position Sensor Performance / Rationality
MikeyB
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Can anyone think of a reason why one couldn't pull the dowel pin and remove 62 thou from its diameter (on a lathe) where it contacts the tone ring ? That would produce a 2 degree advance as well. One wouldn't have to machine the tone ring then.
"P0016 Crankshaft/Camshaft Timing Misalignment/Out-of-Sync"
is listed as
P0016 is listed as "Engine Speed Signal Mismatch" in the 05 manual.
This code will probably be set if the timing of the crankshaft position sensor is moved too much. See page 9-1049. "Mechanical misalignment of the camshaft and crankshaft gears."
"P0341 Camshaft Position Sensor Performance / Rationality"
This code is listed as Camshaft Position Sensor Signal in my 05 shop manual. The troubleshooting section on it just shows testing that the wiring for the Camshaft is correct. It doesn't say anything about the crankshaft sensor.
Mike: where did you get your information ?
"P0016 Crankshaft/Camshaft Timing Misalignment/Out-of-Sync"
is listed as
P0016 is listed as "Engine Speed Signal Mismatch" in the 05 manual.
This code will probably be set if the timing of the crankshaft position sensor is moved too much. See page 9-1049. "Mechanical misalignment of the camshaft and crankshaft gears."
"P0341 Camshaft Position Sensor Performance / Rationality"
This code is listed as Camshaft Position Sensor Signal in my 05 shop manual. The troubleshooting section on it just shows testing that the wiring for the Camshaft is correct. It doesn't say anything about the crankshaft sensor.
Mike: where did you get your information ?
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Well, I advanced the timing on my truck over lunch.
I pulled the crankshaft pulley and machined the slot on the timing wheel wider so that I've got just under 2.5 degrees of advance from the fully retarded position.
Some thoughts:
a) I took a look at how the stock sensor sits in its holder and I can't see how removing 80 thou from one side would advance the timing 2 degrees. There *might* be some additional sensor movement over the 80 thou, but I can't see it being very much.
b) My damper has a TDC mark on it. I was surprised to see this.
c) I put a dial gauge on my stock tone wheel and measured the play with the damper bolts loose. I measured 72 thou of travel from fully retarded to fully advanced. That is about 1 degree. If I had a truck that was suffering from poor fuel economy, I'd loosen the damper bolts and rotate the tone wheel all the way advanced (clockwise) and tighten them up. That is if I wasn't going to add a few degrees of advance to it first...
I am surprised at the amount of travel the tone wheel has. There was about 4 thou of travel in the slot compared to the dowel, but the tone wheel is also a bit larger than the crankshaft stub and the bolt holes are quite a bit oversized. Even with 2.5 degrees of advance I didn't have to enlarge the stock bolt holes.
I wonder how much attention the assemblers pay to aligning the tone wheel when it is put on the crank ? If one pushes on it when loose, you can really get a lot of adjustability for something that is supposed to be the same from engine to engine.
If I was using a machined sensor for advancing the timing, I'd still loosen my damper and advance the tone ring all the way.
BTW: It was mentioned that the damper could be marked as a reference so that one will know how much one has moved the tone ring. I think this would be misleading. The damper has a 1/4" dowel hole. The dowel itself is 6mm. The damper has some play on the crankshaft thus it isn't a good reference point.
d) The damper bolt torque procedure according to the 05 manual is 30 ftlbs plus 60 degrees.
e) My truck definitely runs nicer with the timing advanced. It seems to remove a stumble at lower RPMs. My engine is a tad louder both with combustion sounds and exhaust noise. Just a tiny bit, not much. The engine is very crisp now.
f) I definitely like the way the engine idles with the timing advanced. My setting is probably a bit early at idle. It sounds like a 2nd gen 24V with a strong VP44, but very quiet. Every injection event is precise and quick. You can tell the combustion chamber pressure has increased and given the issues being spoken about idling with these injectors, I think that is a good thing. I'm happy I did this while my engine is relatively new because I think it is going to enhance the life of the injectors.
g) Someone said their engine started a tad slower and I'd have to agree.
I pulled the crankshaft pulley and machined the slot on the timing wheel wider so that I've got just under 2.5 degrees of advance from the fully retarded position.
Some thoughts:
a) I took a look at how the stock sensor sits in its holder and I can't see how removing 80 thou from one side would advance the timing 2 degrees. There *might* be some additional sensor movement over the 80 thou, but I can't see it being very much.
b) My damper has a TDC mark on it. I was surprised to see this.
c) I put a dial gauge on my stock tone wheel and measured the play with the damper bolts loose. I measured 72 thou of travel from fully retarded to fully advanced. That is about 1 degree. If I had a truck that was suffering from poor fuel economy, I'd loosen the damper bolts and rotate the tone wheel all the way advanced (clockwise) and tighten them up. That is if I wasn't going to add a few degrees of advance to it first...
I am surprised at the amount of travel the tone wheel has. There was about 4 thou of travel in the slot compared to the dowel, but the tone wheel is also a bit larger than the crankshaft stub and the bolt holes are quite a bit oversized. Even with 2.5 degrees of advance I didn't have to enlarge the stock bolt holes.
I wonder how much attention the assemblers pay to aligning the tone wheel when it is put on the crank ? If one pushes on it when loose, you can really get a lot of adjustability for something that is supposed to be the same from engine to engine.
If I was using a machined sensor for advancing the timing, I'd still loosen my damper and advance the tone ring all the way.
BTW: It was mentioned that the damper could be marked as a reference so that one will know how much one has moved the tone ring. I think this would be misleading. The damper has a 1/4" dowel hole. The dowel itself is 6mm. The damper has some play on the crankshaft thus it isn't a good reference point.
d) The damper bolt torque procedure according to the 05 manual is 30 ftlbs plus 60 degrees.
e) My truck definitely runs nicer with the timing advanced. It seems to remove a stumble at lower RPMs. My engine is a tad louder both with combustion sounds and exhaust noise. Just a tiny bit, not much. The engine is very crisp now.
f) I definitely like the way the engine idles with the timing advanced. My setting is probably a bit early at idle. It sounds like a 2nd gen 24V with a strong VP44, but very quiet. Every injection event is precise and quick. You can tell the combustion chamber pressure has increased and given the issues being spoken about idling with these injectors, I think that is a good thing. I'm happy I did this while my engine is relatively new because I think it is going to enhance the life of the injectors.
g) Someone said their engine started a tad slower and I'd have to agree.
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In retrospect, I don't see how I could have gotten 72 thou of play in my tone ring. I measured a few things. The tone ring bore was 3 thou over the stub shaft dia and the slot was about 4 thou over the dowel. Theoretically that should give about 32 thou. I know I measured 72 thou. I took some crappy digital photos of the setup.
Never the less, there is still probably a half degree of play available for advancing.
Never the less, there is still probably a half degree of play available for advancing.
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I just uploaded a CAD jpeg showing how I arrived at my numbers.
I have to admit I screwed up. The initial slot width was 6.06 mm or 0.238, not the 0.233 I originally stated. I drew it as 0.240 in CAD. My final slot width was 0.275+, I drew it as 0.276". I've got 2.22 degrees of advance from a neutral stock position.
Rushed work = poor work !
I have to admit I screwed up. The initial slot width was 6.06 mm or 0.238, not the 0.233 I originally stated. I drew it as 0.240 in CAD. My final slot width was 0.275+, I drew it as 0.276". I've got 2.22 degrees of advance from a neutral stock position.
Rushed work = poor work !
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From: Central Alberta
I'm trying to learn about the timing as i read this, but if I adjust it the tone wheel the 2.5 degrees, will it be to far with the TST. I run it 1-0 for fuel economy,
Also would this advance work on stock 02
Also would this advance work on stock 02
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,543
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From: Tomball, Texas
BlueDually,
I believe with the TST in the low setting it's timing only. Just don't know how far. I would leave the tone wheel in the stock position. Or at least check to see if the tone wheel is in it's most advanced position.
MikeyB
I believe with the TST in the low setting it's timing only. Just don't know how far. I would leave the tone wheel in the stock position. Or at least check to see if the tone wheel is in it's most advanced position.
MikeyB
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From: Cheyenne Wyoming
MPG update:
Just returend from a road trip, turned out to be 645.0 miles. 645 miles on one tank that is!
Interstate @ 75+, caught in Denver rush-hour two times and some in town (about 100 miles).
Best ever for this trip was 17.2 and worst was 16.3
Drum roll.........................
645 miles
32.856 gal
= 19.63 miles per gallon
By far the best two tanks (last tank 19.58 to/from work) ever by a LONG ways.
This is the kind of mileage I was looking for in a Cummins!
odie2219:
These are on an 04.5 4X4 with 315s and a 6sp (see signature)
Wish I would have done this 20K miles ago (20,500 miles and less than a year old), it would have saved a bunch of fuel.
Just returend from a road trip, turned out to be 645.0 miles. 645 miles on one tank that is!
Interstate @ 75+, caught in Denver rush-hour two times and some in town (about 100 miles).
Best ever for this trip was 17.2 and worst was 16.3
Drum roll.........................
645 miles
32.856 gal
= 19.63 miles per gallon
By far the best two tanks (last tank 19.58 to/from work) ever by a LONG ways.
This is the kind of mileage I was looking for in a Cummins!
odie2219:
These are on an 04.5 4X4 with 315s and a 6sp (see signature)
Wish I would have done this 20K miles ago (20,500 miles and less than a year old), it would have saved a bunch of fuel.
