AFE or K&N
03-25-2004, 05:28 PM
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AFE or K&N
I am a converted Powerstroker and I used to use K&N in the Ford
What is the opinion of the group for my 2004 CTD, AFE or K&N.
I really would like to change to a re-useable filter plus the performance upgrade might be a good one.
Is there a sponsor site that is affordable for a drop in?
Thunderjet~~~
What is the opinion of the group for my 2004 CTD, AFE or K&N.
I really would like to change to a re-useable filter plus the performance upgrade might be a good one.
Is there a sponsor site that is affordable for a drop in?
Thunderjet~~~
03-25-2004, 06:09 PM
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Welcome Convert. As far as I know, K/N does not make a drop in filter for the 3rd gen yet. Those filters may cause you warranty problems.(doubt it, but possible) They say the K/N doesnt filter enough with the amount of air that is drawn through them and the oil puts a coating on all intake surfaces, sensors, and turbo. But K/N told me they will be releasing a filter for these new diesels soon. As far as AFE. I bought one and like it. Just dont over oil it( light coating) and you'll be safe and just as happy with it.. if you check e-bay you'll find a great price on them.
03-25-2004, 06:31 PM
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K&N vs. AFE
I have used both the K&N drop in and the entire K&N intake kit on my 2nd gen. They definitely coat the turbo and intake tube with oil and although I didn't have a problem with the engine oil, (Mostly highway driving), I got worried about all the problems I read about with these filters. I recently switched to the AFE intake kit with the Progaurd 7 filter and love it. I didn't notice any performance difference, Turbo still sings, and feel like I have a lot better protection. Just my 2 cents.
03-25-2004, 07:04 PM
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I just got back from the dealer. They are fixing 2 dents that they put in the truck while taking care of the tranny cooler line recall. I asked him about AFE and k&N and they said they may void my warrenty due to the amount of air the motor pulls, and it may pull a rock through the filter and mess up the turbo fins.
BS or not? I really do want to add a drop in relplacement but do not want to void the warranty.
Thunderjet~~
BS or not? I really do want to add a drop in relplacement but do not want to void the warranty.
Thunderjet~~
03-25-2004, 08:14 PM
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1. That is why I don't want the dealer to fix my truck(recalls)
2. That sucks cause I want a filter too, They supp. can't void the warranty because of filters like , UNI, AMSOIL,AFE, etc.
2. That sucks cause I want a filter too, They supp. can't void the warranty because of filters like , UNI, AMSOIL,AFE, etc.
03-26-2004, 08:16 AM
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Ait Systems
Thunderjet,
Here's some info regarding the filtering "quality" of they performance intake fitlers themselves, this was done by a customer of ours and he got some pretty interesting results! His testing and our previous use of oiled foam filters is the reason we ONLY sell Pro Guard 7 filters and system!
Here's what Dan Montegari of Precision Diesel Services says about advanced FLOW engineering's Pro-GUARD 7 filter media:
HIGH FLOW AIR INTAKE SYSTEMS
WHO IS THE BEST & WHY!
We received many letters asking which high flow air intake system to use. We decided to test a number of manufacturers’ systems to determine which system was superior. We tested each system and found systems manufactured by AFE (Advanced Flow Engineering) were the best by far.
Diesel engines use seven times more air than gasoline engines of equivalent size so clean cool air is a must for extended engine life, better fuel economy and additional power. A higher flow of intake air coupled with a high flow exhaust system allows for more power, a better fuel economy, extended engine life and reduced exhaust temperatures. On the other hand ingested dirt through the air intake system becomes Silicon in the engine oil, which is a harsh cutting agent and can damage your engine quickly.
We tested three very popular systems. I will not mention the names of the other systems as a courtesy but I will explain what problems we found with them. We evaluated the systems by a number of criteria, filtration protection, flow, and design, easy of installation and cost. Almost in the beginning of the tests we realized in most instances a new intake system was necessary to achieve our goals. We needed a kit that used mostly outside air and not hot engine compartment air. We decided to use systems designed to use mostly outside air.
Two manufacturers claimed their systems delivered cleaner air at a higher flow but this was far from the truth. We did not believe any of the manufacturers’ claims and tested each system by operating the vehicle 3,000 miles and performing an engine oil analysis to determine Silicon levels in the engine oil. The vehicle we used has an engine oil analysis performed at every oil change so we had a Silicon number of three (3) to base our tests on.
The first manufacturer’s system was fairly easy to install but we had problems with the oil used to coat the filter also coated the Mass Air Flow Sensor causing a service engine lamp to come on. I called the manufacturer but they had no explanation as to why this should happen but they had this complaint before. Through the three thousand mile test I had to clean the sensor three times to stop the service engine lamp from coming on. When the oil analysis results came back, it was discouraging with Silicon levels at eleven (11). I almost could not believe the result so we changed the oil and filter and repeated the test. The results were almost the same eliminating this manufacturer quickly. I contacted the manufacturer to discuss the results and they were not helpful and basically said, “what you see is what you get”!
We installed the second manufacturer’s system again changing the engine oil and operating the vehicle for three thousand miles. The first problem we encountered was the service engine lamp coming on and I thought the oil they used was coating the sensor again. I removed the sensor and found some oil on it which I cleaned off and reinstalled the sensor. Within ten miles the lamp was on again. I removed the sensor but there was no coating of oil on it. I then placed our scan tool on the engine and quickly discovered the airflow rate was too high for the sensor. I then realized the manufacturer had moved the position of the sensor into a higher airflow and velocity position trying to squeak a little more power from their system. I continued the test having to deal with the service engine lamp throughout the test period. The engine oil analysis gave a Silicon reading of eight (8 and along with the engine lamp problem did not give the manufacturer high mark but I felt if I discussed the problems with them maybe we could overcome them. I placed four calls to the manufacturer and I am still waiting for a call back! This surely eliminated this manufacturer.
The third manufacturer we tested was AFE (Advanced Flow Engineering). We used their Magnum Force air intake system. We operated the vehicle for 3000 miles and when the oil analysis came back it was promising with a Silicon reading of five (5). While five was the best Silicon result we had, it was not good enough. I called AFE and was pleasantly surprised when I discovered they were truly concerned. I spoke with a Mr. Paul Hardley who suggested I try their Pro-Guard 7 media they were about to release. He explained the new Pro-Guard 7 media was five layers of progressively finer mesh medical grade cotton gauze with micro fibers that attract smaller and smaller particles as air passes through. Combined with the five layers of medical [gauze] media, there are two layers of non-woven synthetic polyester fabric with random porosity. The filter media is sandwiched between two layers of aluminum wire mesh. He agreed to send two Pro-Guard 7 filters for a new test. I installed the Pro-Guard 7 filter, changed the engine oil and operated the vehicle for three thousand miles. The engine oil analysis was excellent with a Silicon reading of below three (3). Finally we found an air intake system that gave us a higher flow rate and better filtration. The AFE Magnum Force air intake system is a well designed system, easily installed and uses about 90% outside air. The filter is cleanable and the oil used to coat the filter is patented because it is formulated not to affect the airflow sensor.
Another positive factor of the high flow system was the fuel economy increased about ½ MPG in mixed driving and 1 MPG during highway tests. The filter media used by AFE will not collapse if it gets wet or subject to high boost pressures. They also offer pre-filters for most of their applications for very dusty or dirty operating conditions. We carry a full line of AFE products with Pro-GUARD 7 media. If you order an AFE system from another source, make sure it has a Pro-GUARD 7 media.
A very important factor in this test was the manufacturer was willing to discuss problems with their products and help to overcome them. My hat is off to Paul Hardley and all the people at AFE!
Dan Montegari
President
Precision Diesel Services
Call us if you have any questions, we'll be glad to help youon them.
Mark @ DPPI
Here's some info regarding the filtering "quality" of they performance intake fitlers themselves, this was done by a customer of ours and he got some pretty interesting results! His testing and our previous use of oiled foam filters is the reason we ONLY sell Pro Guard 7 filters and system!
Here's what Dan Montegari of Precision Diesel Services says about advanced FLOW engineering's Pro-GUARD 7 filter media:
HIGH FLOW AIR INTAKE SYSTEMS
WHO IS THE BEST & WHY!
We received many letters asking which high flow air intake system to use. We decided to test a number of manufacturers’ systems to determine which system was superior. We tested each system and found systems manufactured by AFE (Advanced Flow Engineering) were the best by far.
Diesel engines use seven times more air than gasoline engines of equivalent size so clean cool air is a must for extended engine life, better fuel economy and additional power. A higher flow of intake air coupled with a high flow exhaust system allows for more power, a better fuel economy, extended engine life and reduced exhaust temperatures. On the other hand ingested dirt through the air intake system becomes Silicon in the engine oil, which is a harsh cutting agent and can damage your engine quickly.
We tested three very popular systems. I will not mention the names of the other systems as a courtesy but I will explain what problems we found with them. We evaluated the systems by a number of criteria, filtration protection, flow, and design, easy of installation and cost. Almost in the beginning of the tests we realized in most instances a new intake system was necessary to achieve our goals. We needed a kit that used mostly outside air and not hot engine compartment air. We decided to use systems designed to use mostly outside air.
Two manufacturers claimed their systems delivered cleaner air at a higher flow but this was far from the truth. We did not believe any of the manufacturers’ claims and tested each system by operating the vehicle 3,000 miles and performing an engine oil analysis to determine Silicon levels in the engine oil. The vehicle we used has an engine oil analysis performed at every oil change so we had a Silicon number of three (3) to base our tests on.
The first manufacturer’s system was fairly easy to install but we had problems with the oil used to coat the filter also coated the Mass Air Flow Sensor causing a service engine lamp to come on. I called the manufacturer but they had no explanation as to why this should happen but they had this complaint before. Through the three thousand mile test I had to clean the sensor three times to stop the service engine lamp from coming on. When the oil analysis results came back, it was discouraging with Silicon levels at eleven (11). I almost could not believe the result so we changed the oil and filter and repeated the test. The results were almost the same eliminating this manufacturer quickly. I contacted the manufacturer to discuss the results and they were not helpful and basically said, “what you see is what you get”!
We installed the second manufacturer’s system again changing the engine oil and operating the vehicle for three thousand miles. The first problem we encountered was the service engine lamp coming on and I thought the oil they used was coating the sensor again. I removed the sensor and found some oil on it which I cleaned off and reinstalled the sensor. Within ten miles the lamp was on again. I removed the sensor but there was no coating of oil on it. I then placed our scan tool on the engine and quickly discovered the airflow rate was too high for the sensor. I then realized the manufacturer had moved the position of the sensor into a higher airflow and velocity position trying to squeak a little more power from their system. I continued the test having to deal with the service engine lamp throughout the test period. The engine oil analysis gave a Silicon reading of eight (8 and along with the engine lamp problem did not give the manufacturer high mark but I felt if I discussed the problems with them maybe we could overcome them. I placed four calls to the manufacturer and I am still waiting for a call back! This surely eliminated this manufacturer.
The third manufacturer we tested was AFE (Advanced Flow Engineering). We used their Magnum Force air intake system. We operated the vehicle for 3000 miles and when the oil analysis came back it was promising with a Silicon reading of five (5). While five was the best Silicon result we had, it was not good enough. I called AFE and was pleasantly surprised when I discovered they were truly concerned. I spoke with a Mr. Paul Hardley who suggested I try their Pro-Guard 7 media they were about to release. He explained the new Pro-Guard 7 media was five layers of progressively finer mesh medical grade cotton gauze with micro fibers that attract smaller and smaller particles as air passes through. Combined with the five layers of medical [gauze] media, there are two layers of non-woven synthetic polyester fabric with random porosity. The filter media is sandwiched between two layers of aluminum wire mesh. He agreed to send two Pro-Guard 7 filters for a new test. I installed the Pro-Guard 7 filter, changed the engine oil and operated the vehicle for three thousand miles. The engine oil analysis was excellent with a Silicon reading of below three (3). Finally we found an air intake system that gave us a higher flow rate and better filtration. The AFE Magnum Force air intake system is a well designed system, easily installed and uses about 90% outside air. The filter is cleanable and the oil used to coat the filter is patented because it is formulated not to affect the airflow sensor.
Another positive factor of the high flow system was the fuel economy increased about ½ MPG in mixed driving and 1 MPG during highway tests. The filter media used by AFE will not collapse if it gets wet or subject to high boost pressures. They also offer pre-filters for most of their applications for very dusty or dirty operating conditions. We carry a full line of AFE products with Pro-GUARD 7 media. If you order an AFE system from another source, make sure it has a Pro-GUARD 7 media.
A very important factor in this test was the manufacturer was willing to discuss problems with their products and help to overcome them. My hat is off to Paul Hardley and all the people at AFE!
Dan Montegari
President
Precision Diesel Services
Call us if you have any questions, we'll be glad to help youon them.
Mark @ DPPI
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03-26-2004, 08:24 AM
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Mark, what were the numbers on the stock air filter? This is reassuring since the topic of high flow filters has been popular lately, and I have an AFE.
James
James
03-28-2004, 12:25 PM
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Stock Air Numers
JT,
The stock PPM filter testing was 3PPM, it's in the article but you really have to hunt for it. The Pro Guard 7 was also 3PPM! We stock all the PG7's call us fi you need any questions answered!
Mark @ DPPI
The stock PPM filter testing was 3PPM, it's in the article but you really have to hunt for it. The Pro Guard 7 was also 3PPM! We stock all the PG7's call us fi you need any questions answered!
Mark @ DPPI
03-28-2004, 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by Thunderjet
I asked him about AFE and k&N and they said they may void my warrenty due to the amount of air the motor pulls, and it may pull a rock through the filter and mess up the turbo fins.
I asked him about AFE and k&N and they said they may void my warrenty due to the amount of air the motor pulls, and it may pull a rock through the filter and mess up the turbo fins.
That's the best one I've heard in a while.
03-28-2004, 03:54 PM
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I have an afe drop in filter now. By Monday or Tuesday my cold air intake system with a Proguard 7 should be in. I have about 30k miles on drop in afe. Havent sucked any rocks in yet. 
Tube to turbo is clean amd dry!
Tube to turbo is clean amd dry!
03-29-2004, 09:06 AM
#13
The oiled foam not filtering as well as the stock paper filters confirms other less quantitative tests that I've seen, and is why I'll stick with the paper filters. I will look into a bigger paper filter, and pre-filtering it with a large oiled foam filter.
03-31-2004, 10:15 PM
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I have used many K&N filters on my vehicles over the years. A few that were turbocharged and one drag car I street drove that sucked a lot more air than my Cummins.
I have never gotten any oil or dirt inside my intake of any of my engines. Not even my dirt bikes that I used to run K&N filters strapped right on the carb.
If you are getting oil inside your intake from your filter than I would suspect that it is over oiled or wasn't given enough time to soak into the fabric before use.
I believe the largest mistake people make in picking a filter is not analyzing the conditions their vehicle is going to be used in. If you use you truck as a work truck in dusty construction conditions, than I would leave the stock setup in place. Any type of CAI you install is going to clog quickly or let contaminents by. If you do mostly highway driving, then a CAI will work fine.
There are always trade-offs when it comes to performance. If you want more air in your engine, then you are going to have to increase the surface area of the filter and offer a material that flows better. The trade-off is going to be less filtration ability or less of a time interval between cleaning.
I have no doubt that AFE makes an excellent filter, but so does K&N. Like any performance part, they require more attention than a stock setup. DC can't control how owners will care for their trucks, so the have to design their trucks for those that pay the least attention to maintenance. That's why they tend to void warranty claims with high flow intakes. I am sure most people assume you can put a CAI on and go 10K miles or more without doing anything to it. That's where people run into problem with contaminents. I am sure DC knows this too. I am sure if I removed my filter all together and ducted air straight from the grill to my turbo, then I would see improvement in performance and mileage. I also can't expect DC to warranty my engine. The moral of the story is...If you mod it, be prepared to do your own wrenching.
I do all my own work anyway since I don't trust a dealer to even check my tire pressure.
Just my 2 cents on filters....
-Muzzy
I have never gotten any oil or dirt inside my intake of any of my engines. Not even my dirt bikes that I used to run K&N filters strapped right on the carb.
If you are getting oil inside your intake from your filter than I would suspect that it is over oiled or wasn't given enough time to soak into the fabric before use.
I believe the largest mistake people make in picking a filter is not analyzing the conditions their vehicle is going to be used in. If you use you truck as a work truck in dusty construction conditions, than I would leave the stock setup in place. Any type of CAI you install is going to clog quickly or let contaminents by. If you do mostly highway driving, then a CAI will work fine.
There are always trade-offs when it comes to performance. If you want more air in your engine, then you are going to have to increase the surface area of the filter and offer a material that flows better. The trade-off is going to be less filtration ability or less of a time interval between cleaning.
I have no doubt that AFE makes an excellent filter, but so does K&N. Like any performance part, they require more attention than a stock setup. DC can't control how owners will care for their trucks, so the have to design their trucks for those that pay the least attention to maintenance. That's why they tend to void warranty claims with high flow intakes. I am sure most people assume you can put a CAI on and go 10K miles or more without doing anything to it. That's where people run into problem with contaminents. I am sure DC knows this too. I am sure if I removed my filter all together and ducted air straight from the grill to my turbo, then I would see improvement in performance and mileage. I also can't expect DC to warranty my engine. The moral of the story is...If you mod it, be prepared to do your own wrenching.
I do all my own work anyway since I don't trust a dealer to even check my tire pressure.
Just my 2 cents on filters....
-Muzzy
04-01-2004, 06:27 AM
#15
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That article is basically an advertisement for AFE, and has been posted many times now. I personally would like to see some real world results as opposed to an AFE advertisement.