well it is all about what he is talking about. keepign the arm paralel to the ground but the point that BDS uses may or may not be optimum. See I am a electrical engineer and not a mechanical engineer. I could find the calcultions but don't know them off the top of my head. there is a benifit but is it something you will really notice. like lower a car can cause bump stear and you buy expensive kits to correct it. most of the time it is livable though.

my garbage lift has been acceptable to me so far. when I bought it I new it was an enty level kit and don't abuse it. I don't really abuse this truck. the brake dive is minimal. the truck drives really nice.

if you really want to talk nuts and bolts you post in actual matieral, wall thickness. superlift may be inferior but there is not technical data in this thread.

these lifts may be garbage but saying there garbage and proving thier garbage is two differnet things.

now you can talk about me learning something. maybe. or you could lear something yourself. it is called metallurgy. then you can explain why the arm will crack before the other arm will crack. also with the break dive there will be a point where it most likely gets logrithmically worse. Is that at 6", 8", 10". I don't know. that is tech though. explainign when it is actually needed. not just calling other things garbage.

to be honest I don't know what bds, tuff country, super lift use in there arms. so he may be right. I would research it before I just take his word for it though.

 

I agree to a point....but IMO anything over 4.5-5" needs relocated CA mounts or the front end will dive bad under braking. Some worse than others. Granted a free body diagram will indicate minimal increases in longitudinal loading, but this will only give you an indication of changes in loading and an idea of transmitted load force (road vibration). The the amount of "rough" that you feel is more dependent on the type of bushing used in the CA than the vertical component being transmitted through the upper CA. You'd have to have an obnoxious amount of angle on the upper CA to feel any difference in ride quality from that component alone. The other reason is that short arms on a lift over 4" articulate poorly and don't cycle smoothly when off camber. Short arms also pull the axle back toward the cab, the higher the lift, the more the axle moves back. Longer arms are used to center the axle in the wheel well at ride height and provide increased articulation. DJ and I are talking about performance and strength, not ride quality.

I never had a problem aligning my SJ lift either, but I did have big probelms keeping it aligned. Ate front tires too. Bad springs, high spring rates and crappy shocks will kill the ride, quality and performance wise, no argument there, but what do 90% of the kits I call "garbage" come with? Crappy springs and shocks, or spacers and crappy shocks. Agreed you can pick and choose a few parts to improve it, but most folks don't do that. If you spend $900-1500 or more on a lift kit, why would you want to spend an additional $300 for decent shocks, $250-300 for decent springs, and a couple hundred more for something besides the cheesy track bar drop bracket that come with most of these kits?

Real world......I put 120K on my lift before I junked it. With the SJ springs and shocks, it rode like a buckboard. With the CSS springs, it was much better. I didn't see a drastic improvement until I went to my current set up, but it's not for everybody. It rides great, but I'd have a hard time cutting the stock CA mounts off a brand new truck.

Honestly, I've seen problems and breakage with all of them (except KORE). KORE doesn't relocate the CA mounts because it's not necessary with the 2-3" increase in ride height. Their parts are based on parts made for Kent's truck, and SCORE rules prevent modifying the stock configuration for the stock full size truck class. Comparing Kent's kit to a mass produced kit like any of the ones mentioned above is like comparing a tin can and a string to a satellite phone.

Of course (here's the disclaimer) if your truck is a mall crawling pavement queen and never sees dirt, and you're just driving it to impress girls and intimidate hybrid drivers, then I guess 4Wheel Parts Wholesalers has just what you need!

As for engineers....you guys need all the cool factor you can get...I got three of 'em in my office right now arguing over why a 4" pipe won't fit in a 4" hole...

 

hogsnutz...don't get your panties in a twist, I did the same thing you did when I lifted my truck. Be glad there's a lot more info out there now than there was when I did my first lift. DJ and I are simply trying to pass on some of the expensive lessons we've learned so that other folks don't make the same mistakes.

One doesn't have to know much about metallurgy to know that DOM tubing is stronger than the seamed tubing most of these manufacturers are using. I don't recall the various wall thicknesses off the top of my head, but I have seen arms from SJ, Tuff Country and Superlift bent, cracked and broke. Personally, I'd prefer something along the lines of the square tube BDS uses, but that's just me. Actually, the best stock replacement arms I've seen are made by DT/Profab out of plate.

You have a beautiful truck, enjoy the heck out of it. It will probably give you many years of trouble free service if it's only pavement driven. Keep an eye on the tire pressures and alignment, and you'll be fine.

Some of us just work our trucks a little harder than others, so we have a little bit higher standard for performance suspension.

 

Well I'm putting on a 5.5" Fabtech tomorrow, I hope that it doesn't give me any problems. From what I've heard it's a decent setup with good engineering. But we'll see tomorrow.....

 

505-379-2750

Call me sometime...and I will show you 100 reasons you are wrong.
If any of your "smart" comments above refer to me...wrong again.

My truck gets used harder on and off road than your pos any and everyday.

I don't need my truck to impress anyone...the closest you would every get to a gal like mine is in your dreams.

I might be a little more dangerous than you think...a hard working hands on redneck who owns a large steel fabrication company, does all of his own wrenching, drives/tows a ton, and also is a licensed professional engineer (6 states last time I checked). I have real world experience (like you claim I assume) and can back it up on paper with brains not a mouth.

I have $1100 tied up into my suspension kit. I dare you try to match. There is nothing wrong with the OEM spring rate...why waste a perfectly good spring. If you look in my pictures...you will see that my tires look perfectly centered in the wheel, so I don't exactley understand what your comment was getting at? If you would like...lets do a 3d finite element stres analysis on any componety you like and I will tell what it would take to break it. I will then let you decide whether poor installs or crappy engineering is the main cause of failures in the suspension industry.

Oh...btw...a 4 inch diameter pipe assuming you mean STD Pipe Grade A-500 schedules 5 - 180 including XX Hvy fit in a 4.5 inch diameter hole (maybe give a 1/64 of an inch to make up for any tolerance).

Bashing is such a waste of forum space...if you are a fan of a particular product...state that...give a few reasons why you are...and be prepared to answer a few questions. Other than that...you do not reinforce any point by just putting down other products.

The phone number is at the top of the page if you would like to discuss any of this.

Cheers.

 

Cowhand...

You have a nice truck...that is for sure...but you did spent alot on a few of the components in your suspension. The strength of an entire system is limited to strength of the weakest part. I hope the grade 5 bolts, stress riser inducing name cutouts in the control arms, and factory shock mounts that i see help. How do the solid helm joints add to ride quality btw?

I do like the shock choice...probably my next upgrade.

I appologize to the rest for hijacking the thread...I will exit now and resolve this elsewhere if needed.

 

Dude...lighten up. The engineer comment was a joke. We'll leave the women out of this, whether you're with the girl of my dreams or not, I'm sure she's not with you because she likes your truck.

Your rant up there didn't counter any of the points I made, it was just a rant. While I respect the fact that you're a PE in 6 states, if engineers were perfect then the would be no such thing as RFI's and change orders, right?
By your own admission, a 4" pipe will not fit in a 4" hole....but I digress. This was a technical discussion, not a personal attack directed at you or anyone else. Being a hard working, hands on redneck myself, I've done my fair share of rigging, flying, hanging and modifying the kind of stuff you make in your fab shop. I do all my own wrenching and wrenching for a lot of other folks as well.

I speak from experience learned from lots of money spent and lots of parts broken, mine and other folks.

Regarding your comment about OEM springs...to each his own. I'm not a big fan of spacers on a spring perch that has a reputation for cracking on some trucks. If you don't remember, DC did a recall for cracked spring towers a few years back. Since the factory doesn't make a 6" spring, I had to go with an aftermarket spring. As far as the OEM spring rate, I chose to go 20% softer. With the right shock to back it up, it made a drastic improvement in ride quality and performance.

The only grade 5 bolts in my suspension are the ones I used to locate the upper link bracket until they were welded. The bracket is there to put the pivot bolt in double shear, it was moved inboard of the stock location to provide better articulation and triangulation. The rest of the pivot bolts are Grade 8.

The stress riser inducing name cut out I think will be fine, as long as I don't point load the arms under or over the cut out. If they crack, my fabricator will send me another pair. Which factory shock mounts are you referring to? I have a whole new set up for the rear, it moves both shocks behind the axle. The right side didn't work in the stock mount. With the axle rotated to correct the pinion angle, the mount rotated up and left me with about 3" of compression. Wouldn't have been a problem if I'd run a 10" instead of a 12" shock, but I wanted the travel. The front mounts aren't stock, so....

And as far as the heims....the upper links simply maintain caster. The lower bushing and the frame end bushing are both poly. I have less road vibration now than I did with the SJ kit.

Again, this wasn't a personal attack on you, hognutz or anyone else. I just hate to see folks that are as passionate about trucks as we are spend their hard earned money more than once. I did. Like you said in a previous post, picking pieces to put together a function suspension system that performs is a great way to go. You can easily put together parts from custom fabricators and end up with something that will way outperform anything off the shelf for close to the same money.

 

I don't know man, I am pretty rough on stuff. Caught air last night with the diesel while crossing some train tracks at 60 mph.
My other Ram gets the hell beat out of it for fun, that is what I built it for.

None of my statements were meant to be offensive to anybody, I am just stating what I have come to learn after dealing with many, many different types of lifts and different sizes of lifts. All of the trucks in here look great, it's just that I know some of the manufacturers of the lifts mentioned are like Wal Mart: they build a ton of them as cheaply as possible to sell as many units as they can, with little design or quality control.

 

Thanks guys for all of your input!!! I understand everyone's point of views on the whole lift and cheaper built kits. I went with the skyjacker lift actually my only choices were a sky jacker and fabtech. The lift will be going on Thursday!!! I am looking at purchasing a set of Super Swampe IRok Radials?? Has any one had these or know of anyone running them??? What about the nitto terra grapler's. I called around today on the irok's and they are a 10 ply tire and in a 37" tire they are $250. I don't think that is a bad price since I paid 200 for my 33" Pro comp's. I won't know a price on the toyo's until monday and if I can get a good deal on a set of rims I might go that route but I think I will stay with the 17 but go to a 9" wide rim!! What are your guys thoughs on that set up! The only reason I don't want to get too fancy is I am hard on my truck and tires. I hunt a lot and here in Idaho I drive around in lava rock constantly!! So a good tire is a must. I am also in knee deep mud and snow this time of the year so traction is without a doubt impeckable!!

Shane

 

I am not mad or anything. I just prefer tech. your last post was nice.

Actually square tubing is weaker than round tubing all things being equal but you tubing type is the most important. one could compare the companies and the advantages and disadvantages would show. I can honestly say I don't know who has advantage of material between the like kit though.

that is good tech for decideing between like lifts. say you did want one of the cheaper lifts but the one with stronger arms. or maybe the all suck bad enough you poney up for a nicer kit.

I was just trying to re-enforce the fact of how something is used is the most important factor on optimizing money spent. that is hard to argue. Some poeople just like spending money. I am more of an optmize guy. as an analogy I don't buy 700hp rods for a 400hp engine. Some people will. they will but a 4340 crank in a 400hp engine because it is stronger. you don't need it but it is stronger. If I optimze I can buy more toys.

other good thing is cost. what to the BDS kit cost?

 

I woud not run the IROK's and a daily driven vehicle. I have never been overly happy with wear or ride on any TSL tires. I have had a ton of different modles over the years.

I am very happy with my toyo's. I am sure there are tires out there with better traction but they do fine, look great, ride excellet and wear nice. never ran an nitto's to coment on them.

if you get new rims just try to stay as close to factory backspacing as possible to eliminate any chance of rubbing issues.

 

Iroks will wear crazy fast whether they are radial or not. Im happy with my nittos, they are super quiet and wear really good. I would rather have more of a mud terrain but I got a good deal on these and they were E rated, 10 ply. It sounds like you need an aggressive tire so I would suggest toyo m/ts or maybe ssr's if they have the load ratings. From what I've seen on and off road toyo m/ts are very impressive.

 

The Toyo MT's might be my next tire, simply because of the load rating and weight rating. Those numbers are awesome.
Iroks are a good tire and they ride really good for being bias ply, but I wouldn't put them under a heavy diesel. My brother has a set of the 42's under his 1/2 ton with 1 ton axles and they ride great. Very impressive.

I had a set of 38 inch radial 10 ply SSR's for a long time and they lasted about 30,000 miles. Those were the longest lasting set of tires I have ever owned. Normally I change tires about as often as I change my underwear (once a year) and those lasted two years and some change. Not sure what the load rating is, probably D rated. They ride very good on the highway and perform really well offroad. Probably the best "all terrain" tire I've ever used.