Ted White

I'm a 2008 Duramax driver myself, but I've just become aware of an unfortunate situation involving a late 2007 Dodge RAM and its emissions system that has cost the owner a bundle. However, I think he and the dealership may have inadvertently come to the wrong conclusion about his problem and I'm asking for input based on the experience on this forum.

The truck was taken, in limp mode, to a dealership in Saskatchewan, Canada, with a plugged up DPF. The dealership was unable to burn off the soot, and at some point asked the owner if he had been using anything other than ulsd fuel. (It is important to note that ulsd has been required by law at all pumps in Canada since late 2006).

The owner admitted to using some higher sulfur fuel from his farm tanks, a situation which the dealership immediately stated was the cause of the DPF blockage. As a result, Chrysler refused to pay for the repair. The owner ended up buying a new exhaust system AND injectors - a $5000+ expense.

I know from extensive discussions on www.dieselplace.com (GM pickups) and www.thedieselstop.com (Ford pickups) that LOTS of owners are using farm diesel or other high sulfur fuels in their trucks with NO issues. I am in touch with a number of pickup owners in Mexico, one of which has done more than 12,000 miles in a RAM, with no problems. In addition, ALL of the scientific testing of DPFs and DOCs by the EPA and manufacturers prior to 2007 indicates that at least 40,000 miles must be travelled using high sulfur fuel to cause any degradation in the performance of the emissions system.

Bottom line, in light of the fact that so many owners are deliberately or inadvertently using higher sulfur fuel from time to time, on their farms or because some stations in the USA are still not selling ulsd, I don't believe that it was the fuel which cause the DPF plugging in the case I have described above.

In addition, my searches on this forum and elsewhere have found 5 cases of plugged DPFs on the Dodge RAM being replaced under warranty because of an on-board computer problem which required reflashing !!!

So, I'm asking for input which would either support or argue against the conclusion reached by the dealership and Chrysler. For those of you who have never seen the scientific test results of DPFs, here are the various links:

www.aseanenvironment.info/Abstract/41014571.pdf
for the effect of sulfur on DOCs.

www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/31600.pdf
for Diesel Emissions Control Sulfur Effects Project

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...pdfs/40015.pdf
for the Effect of Biodiesel Blends on DPF performance

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/...ive/828945.pdf
for Fuel Formulation Effects on Emission Control

www.sae.org/technical/papers/2002-01-2788
for Fuel Sulfur Effect on Membrane-Coated Diesel Particulate Filter

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels...erim3final.pdf
for Diesel Fuel Sulfur Effects on Particulate Emissions

http://www.pecj.or.jp/japanese/divis...zuhisaMOGI.pdf
for effects of sulfur on DPF performance

As the above links explain, the Diesel Oxygen Catalyst (DOC) and Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) work together to capture and burn off carbon based particulates (soot). This soot is formed during combustion, obviously, and some of the particulate comes from the tiny amounts of lubricating oil burnt along with the fuel. This is the reason why the new CJ4 oil has been developed - it is new low ash oil - metal based additives have been replaced with alternatives.

As for the fuel, as explained in the test results above, testing of the DFP/DOCs during development found that sulfur in the fuel caused the DOC to facilitate the creation of sulfur compounds such as sulfuric acid, most of which then exited the tailpipe in the exhaust. These sulfur compounds are considered to be particulates, so ultra low sulfur fuel was mandated. From zero to 300ppm sulfur particulates increase on a fairly straight line and at 300ppm the emissions start to exceed the emissions which would be present without a DPF. Once sulfur gets to 500ppm, which is typical for low sulfur fuel, emissions far exceed EPA requirements. Therein lies the main reason for ulsd. Sulfur "poisoning" of the DPF and DOC is a secondary consideration but testing indicates that it takes at least 40,000 miles on lsd to start reducing the effectiveness of the DPF.

Regenerations can be expected to happen more often when using LSD.

Unfortunately none of this information was available to the owner in Saskatchewan at the time of his troubles. So now I'm looking for other Dodge owners who have had successful warranty claims related to plugged DPFs with the hope that we can get Chrysler to change its mind.

Thanks.

ron b

There are other alternatives to replacing the the factory DOC and DPF that are more farm and fuel friendly for a lot less then $5,000.

MikeyB

Why did the injectors need replacing? Because of the bad fuel? If caused by bad fuel Chrysler will deny the warranty and your buddy will have to file a claim with his insurance company.
The DPF can handle LSD every once in a while but ultra high sulphur /bad fuel can damage it.
What kind of filtration does he have on his above ground tank? A buddy of mine killed two sets of injectors on his Duramax because he was filling from his above ground tank.

MikeyB

4WHEELEX

Yeah That Is Right!!! I Live In Central Texas, My Buddy Bought A New 2008 Ctd And With 6000 Miles He Caught Himself At The Farm With The Fuel Light On (about 40miles From Anywhere) When He Added About 10 Gal Of Farm Diesel(red).he Did Not Even Make It To Town Before His Laid Down On Him(hew Was Probably Running A Little Over The Posted Speed Limit) Dodge Came And Flatbedded His Truck And The Did Not Cover The Problem Because Of The Hs Diesel. About $6000. Any Way Got It Back Runns Like New!!!!! Just No Warranty Now..

Diesel Doc

yep most red diesel is high sulfur not even low sulfur or ulsd. Anyhow I am sceptical of the injector change. Sounds like an injector may have died and caused his problem. I don't know the diff in filters between the big 3 but I do understand the dodge runs cleaner and is suposedly already 2010 emisions ready.

Ted White

If you carefully read the information at the links I posted above you will see that it is simply NOT TRUE that lsd fuel can clog the DPF and DOC, UNLESS Dodge is using a manufacturer and system different to Ford and GM, and with different characteristics. If you troll the GM and Ford sites you will see for yourself that clogged DPFs are NOT a problem. Modern DPFs do NOT suffer sulfur poisoning if they are constructed of the right materials.

I'll find out why the injectors had to be replaced, because that is a good question and I don't presently have the answer. Dirty fuel should be adequately cleaned by the filter so I can't see how that could cause an injector problem.

Again, what we are really interested in though is any DPFs which have been replaced under warranty on Dodge trucks, and what was the cause of the problem.

I'm repeating myself here, but I'm in touch with several owners of the new generation trucks, all 3 manufacturers, in Mexico, who are using higher sulfur mexican fuel with NO problems.

Besides, if using lsd or farm diesel was a problem,there would have been thousands of DPFs replaced already because tons of people have been using those fuels over the past year. It hasn't happened !!!!

Diesel Doc

Are the mexican trucks set up to the same emission standards as us trucks. I know the quality of diesel usually sucks down their.

MikeyB

Again, bad injectors can cause the chain of events for killing the DPF. And since your buddy mentioned that he used off road diesel in his truck to the dealer that sealed the deal. It's in the manual. Using off road diesel will void the warranty. He shouldn't have said anything.

MikeyB

gsbrockman

I was under the *assumption* that both off-road and marine diesel were 15 ppm and were simply dyed red to reflect the $0.35/gal lower price tag.

Greg

mopardamo

Hello,

Ted White the farm tank may provide fuel acceptable for mechanical injected diesles but these new motors are different as you know. You are not taking into proper consideration what contaminates and other causes of bad fuel. Saying "Dirty fuel should be adequately cleaned by the filter so I can't see how that could cause an injector problem." is not adequate. Contaminated fuel does not have to take to form of solid particles either. Way too much here to pin anything down.

Damon

johnh

in most area's that is correct, flying j's off road fuel is the same as you get at the pump except for the dye

bigsnakebud

4wheelex
I pulled my 37' 5vr from Mission back to Indiana and could not find ULSD on 77 until i got past Corpus. I would put $20.00 in at a time of LSD hoping the next station had ULSD. That was only 50 miles worth and I had to do this 4 times. It did not bother my truck at all.
Fred

bob4x4

Since the 6.7's injectors and connector tubes are S/S it is also a bit tougher to see signs of fuel contamination as easily as before right at the injector.

Bob

Dodge man

Well since Dodge and Cummins say NOT TO USE LSD all I can say is sorry. You are right about one thing, Dodge's system is different as it meets the 2010 laws while the others don't. Mexico Dodge trucks are different than the US ones though so I wouldn't go by that. Not only did your friend use fuel that is against the law for these trucks but he used the worst kind, you all think LSD has high sulfur count? Farm fuel is 1500ppm!!!

Anyone that uses anything but ULSD I really don't feel sorry for them since all trucks say ONLY ULSD, that doesn't mean you can run the other a faw times, it mean what it says NONE! Don't say Dodge, Ford Or chevy is bad because you didn't do what they tell you as it's your own fault.
Sorry about the rant but your friend will have to pay.

nelrod

Anyone that uses anything but ULSD I really don't feel sorry for them since all trucks say ONLY ULSD, that doesn't mean you can run the other a faw times, it mean what it says NONE! Don't say Dodge, Ford Or chevy is bad because you didn't do what they tell you as it's your own fault.
Sorry about the rant but your friend will have to pay.[/QUOTE]

Then how come people do run it occasionally and have no problems?????? As in some of the above posts. Dodge also says not to run anything over Bio 5%, I run B-20 90% of time and bet my fuel system is MUCH MUCH cleaner because of it. Personally, if I had a 6.7 I would only run ULSD unless it meant walking. I do agree with you on one point-- He is shafted, and will have to pay the bill, however, ulike you, I feel bad for him.