Cautionary Tale on Oil Change Required Message
11-14-2007, 07:06 AM
#61
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Bigblock2stroke-Clearly you are entitled to your opinion.
I prefer to base my decisions on facts.
To date, I have not seen 1 official explanation from Dodge or Cummins explaining what parameters or criteria are montiored by the OHC that factor into to sending a "Change Oil Now" decision.
I have been told by 2 different dealers that the messages on the OHC are unreliable due to communication errors between the engine sensors and ECM. Look on this forum and read how many people have gotten messages to change their oil, they did it, then got the same message 75 miles later. Thats why the delaers told me to follow the recommended interval in the manual.
I have seen published oil analysis reports from various forum members that had their oil tested at various mileages above 5,000 and after they had received at least 1 OHC "Change Oil" message. All of the lab results indicated their oil was fine and perfectly safe to continue using for at least X,000 more miles. There was 1 test report that showed a fuel dilution of just under 5%, and the lab confirmed that was perfectly normal and OK, especially if he captured his oil sample without having driven the vehicle hard for 20 minutes or so first.
I prefer to base my decisions on facts.
To date, I have not seen 1 official explanation from Dodge or Cummins explaining what parameters or criteria are montiored by the OHC that factor into to sending a "Change Oil Now" decision.
I have been told by 2 different dealers that the messages on the OHC are unreliable due to communication errors between the engine sensors and ECM. Look on this forum and read how many people have gotten messages to change their oil, they did it, then got the same message 75 miles later. Thats why the delaers told me to follow the recommended interval in the manual.
I have seen published oil analysis reports from various forum members that had their oil tested at various mileages above 5,000 and after they had received at least 1 OHC "Change Oil" message. All of the lab results indicated their oil was fine and perfectly safe to continue using for at least X,000 more miles. There was 1 test report that showed a fuel dilution of just under 5%, and the lab confirmed that was perfectly normal and OK, especially if he captured his oil sample without having driven the vehicle hard for 20 minutes or so first.
So, where are the facts?
"I have been told by 2 different dealers that the messages on the OHC are unreliable due to communication errors between the engine sensors and ECM."
Is this a fact? I don't think it is. Maybe someone can chime in and tell me where the facts are. I can see it being a fact that the dealers told you the OCM doesn't work. Still doesn't make it a fact.
I find it pretty funny that because you guys don't understand how it works, then Cummins must have done it for no good reason, it doesn't work right if they did have a good reason, and we'll just ignore the message either way.
BTW, It is possible to have the monitor request an oil change and not have excessive fuel dilution. The OCM calculates the estimated fuel dilution. If the calculated number is less than the dilution at which the message is sent, then the OCM reverts back to sending the oil change required message at 7500 miles.
This is all IMHO and cannot be proven to be fact.
11-14-2007, 08:32 AM
#62
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So, thanks for making my point for me:
"The OCM calculates the estimated fuel dilution. If the calculated number is less than the dilution at which the message is sent, then the OCM reverts back to sending the oil change required message at 7500 miles. This is all IMHO and cannot be proven to be fact."
You provide a very eloquent technical description of a function that you have apparently figured out on your own. If I can read something published by Cummins or Dodge that explains how this device functions, what algorithms it uses, then I'll believe it. I'm OK with admitting I am not an expert in this particular area and I choose not to just make stuff up and state it as fact. It's OK to advance a theory or a SWAG (Silly Wild A*S Guess) but qualify your statement as such.
You may be right with your personal theory, but, the evidence doesn't currently support your position. So far, what has been reported in these forums appears to be OHC messages being sent at totally random intervals that can't be linked back to any valid issue or condition of the engine. This seems to be supported by those that have performed oil analysis and confirmed there is nothing wrong with the oil that would require and oil change.
I'll be the first to agree with you that the info from a Dodge dealership is not always gospel. We see that every day in these forums with some of the BS given by SOME of those dealers to their customers. The 2 dealerships I do business with in the Denver area have, up until now, always been very honest and straight forward with me. When they are confronted with a technical issue they haven't seen before, they say "we don't know" but then they figure it out and explain what they found. They were actually part of the team that worked with Cummins engineers to solve the first DPF plugging issues which resulted in new flashes.
So, with that in mind I will agree with you that these dealers could be wrong but at least they are an official source of information. The answer I get from both of them currently is: We really don't know why these messages are being triggered. We think it may be some type of SW communication error. We have had a fair number of people call us concerned when they get this message. We checked many of these vehicles thoroughly and could not find anything wrong with the engine or with the oil. Now we advise them to change it if they want or if they aren't seeing any other issues like CEL's, they can disregard it and change their oil per the recommended intervals in the manual. This is an open issue with the factory engineers and they are investigating to determine the cause and fix."
"The OCM calculates the estimated fuel dilution. If the calculated number is less than the dilution at which the message is sent, then the OCM reverts back to sending the oil change required message at 7500 miles. This is all IMHO and cannot be proven to be fact."
You provide a very eloquent technical description of a function that you have apparently figured out on your own. If I can read something published by Cummins or Dodge that explains how this device functions, what algorithms it uses, then I'll believe it. I'm OK with admitting I am not an expert in this particular area and I choose not to just make stuff up and state it as fact. It's OK to advance a theory or a SWAG (Silly Wild A*S Guess) but qualify your statement as such.
You may be right with your personal theory, but, the evidence doesn't currently support your position. So far, what has been reported in these forums appears to be OHC messages being sent at totally random intervals that can't be linked back to any valid issue or condition of the engine. This seems to be supported by those that have performed oil analysis and confirmed there is nothing wrong with the oil that would require and oil change.
I'll be the first to agree with you that the info from a Dodge dealership is not always gospel. We see that every day in these forums with some of the BS given by SOME of those dealers to their customers. The 2 dealerships I do business with in the Denver area have, up until now, always been very honest and straight forward with me. When they are confronted with a technical issue they haven't seen before, they say "we don't know" but then they figure it out and explain what they found. They were actually part of the team that worked with Cummins engineers to solve the first DPF plugging issues which resulted in new flashes.
So, with that in mind I will agree with you that these dealers could be wrong but at least they are an official source of information. The answer I get from both of them currently is: We really don't know why these messages are being triggered. We think it may be some type of SW communication error. We have had a fair number of people call us concerned when they get this message. We checked many of these vehicles thoroughly and could not find anything wrong with the engine or with the oil. Now we advise them to change it if they want or if they aren't seeing any other issues like CEL's, they can disregard it and change their oil per the recommended intervals in the manual. This is an open issue with the factory engineers and they are investigating to determine the cause and fix."
11-14-2007, 10:40 AM
#63
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One last thing. It has always amazed me how people will usually get their oil changed just prior to a trip which is usually the easiest on oil. Rather than when they get back and subject it to the harsher daily stop and go driving. This of coarse is for a nontowing vehicle. Again we love those pretrip inspections on your vehicle!
11-15-2007, 08:53 AM
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So, thanks for making my point for me:
"The OCM calculates the estimated fuel dilution. If the calculated number is less than the dilution at which the message is sent, then the OCM reverts back to sending the oil change required message at 7500 miles. This is all IMHO and cannot be proven to be fact."
You provide a very eloquent technical description of a function that you have apparently figured out on your own. If I can read something published by Cummins or Dodge that explains how this device functions, what algorithms it uses, then I'll believe it. I'm OK with admitting I am not an expert in this particular area and I choose not to just make stuff up and state it as fact. It's OK to advance a theory or a SWAG (Silly Wild A*S Guess) but qualify your statement as such.
You may be right with your personal theory, but, the evidence doesn't currently support your position. So far, what has been reported in these forums appears to be OHC messages being sent at totally random intervals that can't be linked back to any valid issue or condition of the engine. This seems to be supported by those that have performed oil analysis and confirmed there is nothing wrong with the oil that would require and oil change.
I'll be the first to agree with you that the info from a Dodge dealership is not always gospel. We see that every day in these forums with some of the BS given by SOME of those dealers to their customers. The 2 dealerships I do business with in the Denver area have, up until now, always been very honest and straight forward with me. When they are confronted with a technical issue they haven't seen before, they say "we don't know" but then they figure it out and explain what they found. They were actually part of the team that worked with Cummins engineers to solve the first DPF plugging issues which resulted in new flashes.
So, with that in mind I will agree with you that these dealers could be wrong but at least they are an official source of information. The answer I get from both of them currently is: We really don't know why these messages are being triggered. We think it may be some type of SW communication error. We have had a fair number of people call us concerned when they get this message. We checked many of these vehicles thoroughly and could not find anything wrong with the engine or with the oil. Now we advise them to change it if they want or if they aren't seeing any other issues like CEL's, they can disregard it and change their oil per the recommended intervals in the manual. This is an open issue with the factory engineers and they are investigating to determine the cause and fix."
"The OCM calculates the estimated fuel dilution. If the calculated number is less than the dilution at which the message is sent, then the OCM reverts back to sending the oil change required message at 7500 miles. This is all IMHO and cannot be proven to be fact."
You provide a very eloquent technical description of a function that you have apparently figured out on your own. If I can read something published by Cummins or Dodge that explains how this device functions, what algorithms it uses, then I'll believe it. I'm OK with admitting I am not an expert in this particular area and I choose not to just make stuff up and state it as fact. It's OK to advance a theory or a SWAG (Silly Wild A*S Guess) but qualify your statement as such.
You may be right with your personal theory, but, the evidence doesn't currently support your position. So far, what has been reported in these forums appears to be OHC messages being sent at totally random intervals that can't be linked back to any valid issue or condition of the engine. This seems to be supported by those that have performed oil analysis and confirmed there is nothing wrong with the oil that would require and oil change.
I'll be the first to agree with you that the info from a Dodge dealership is not always gospel. We see that every day in these forums with some of the BS given by SOME of those dealers to their customers. The 2 dealerships I do business with in the Denver area have, up until now, always been very honest and straight forward with me. When they are confronted with a technical issue they haven't seen before, they say "we don't know" but then they figure it out and explain what they found. They were actually part of the team that worked with Cummins engineers to solve the first DPF plugging issues which resulted in new flashes.
So, with that in mind I will agree with you that these dealers could be wrong but at least they are an official source of information. The answer I get from both of them currently is: We really don't know why these messages are being triggered. We think it may be some type of SW communication error. We have had a fair number of people call us concerned when they get this message. We checked many of these vehicles thoroughly and could not find anything wrong with the engine or with the oil. Now we advise them to change it if they want or if they aren't seeing any other issues like CEL's, they can disregard it and change their oil per the recommended intervals in the manual. This is an open issue with the factory engineers and they are investigating to determine the cause and fix."
I agree.
I'll just say that I would rather error on the side of caution and change the oil when it says to instead of risking excessive fuel dilution and potential short block damage.
I'm not saying it would happen alot, but what if someone came in with a strange metallic knocking noise (rod knock) and had 7500 miles since the last oil change, but the OCM had been telling them to change the oil since 3000 miles and they chose not to based on your advice. Would warranty cover the short block? Hopefully it would, but seems like a big risk to take with little potential reward.
Again, more than likely this won't happen, but Murphy has my cell phone number.
11-15-2007, 10:06 AM
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Agreed. My recommendation for anyone getting a "Change Oil Now" message at an interval sooner than about every 7500 miles is, take it to the dealer while it's still under warranty.
Ask them to investigate what is wrong with your engine that is causing it to require oil changes much earlier than recommended. Do not let them off the hook by just doing an oil change and making you pay for it. Especially in those cases where you get the message 75 miles after it was just changed.
If everyone does that Dodge will eventually have to either figure out what is wrong and fix it , or issue a bulletin saying to disregard those messages. At the least you have documented the complaint within their warranty system.
Ask them to investigate what is wrong with your engine that is causing it to require oil changes much earlier than recommended. Do not let them off the hook by just doing an oil change and making you pay for it. Especially in those cases where you get the message 75 miles after it was just changed.
If everyone does that Dodge will eventually have to either figure out what is wrong and fix it , or issue a bulletin saying to disregard those messages. At the least you have documented the complaint within their warranty system.
11-15-2007, 11:56 AM
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Agreed. My recommendation for anyone getting a "Change Oil Now" message at an interval sooner than about every 7500 miles is, take it to the dealer while it's still under warranty.
Ask them to investigate what is wrong with your engine that is causing it to require oil changes much earlier than recommended. Do not let them off the hook by just doing an oil change and making you pay for it. Especially in those cases where you get the message 75 miles after it was just changed.
If everyone does that Dodge will eventually have to either figure out what is wrong and fix it , or issue a bulletin saying to disregard those messages. At the least you have documented the complaint within their warranty system.
Ask them to investigate what is wrong with your engine that is causing it to require oil changes much earlier than recommended. Do not let them off the hook by just doing an oil change and making you pay for it. Especially in those cases where you get the message 75 miles after it was just changed.
If everyone does that Dodge will eventually have to either figure out what is wrong and fix it , or issue a bulletin saying to disregard those messages. At the least you have documented the complaint within their warranty system.
11-16-2007, 06:09 PM
#67
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I guess you have to ask yourself what is the purpose of oil and what are the rewards vs penalties for "early" change. I have NEVER seen a motor damaged from to may oil changes. I have however seen multiple damages from cheap oil, over used oil and diluted oil. All of that damage is not $.05 $.10 $.25 stuff but big dollar, long down time damage. Oil analysis is a great tool but so is common sense. Not changing when your truck recommends would be like changing the oil and not the filter. 
Remember the ONLY thing between all those steel and babbitt parts is oil.
Fred
Remember the ONLY thing between all those steel and babbitt parts is oil. Fred
11-19-2007, 10:17 AM
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BigSnakeBud
I don't think anyone would disagree with you IF the Oil Change Now messages being sent by your truck were legitimate and accurate. They don't appear to be.
So, if people want to change their oil every 75 miles or however frequently they get an erroneous message, thats fine. You are correct, over changing your oil will never hurt your truck, just your wallet.
I don't think anyone would disagree with you IF the Oil Change Now messages being sent by your truck were legitimate and accurate. They don't appear to be.
So, if people want to change their oil every 75 miles or however frequently they get an erroneous message, thats fine. You are correct, over changing your oil will never hurt your truck, just your wallet.
11-19-2007, 01:46 PM
#69
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Question..............does the oil change life reset procedure work even if the message has not been displayed on the EVIC, or can it only be reset after it's tripped ?
The first oil change on my truck was at 3759 miles; the perform service light came on a few weeks and miles later. At the time of the oil & filter change, I did not know the "perform service" feature even existed. I simply reset it.
My second oil change was this past Friday at 7523 miles. I did go thru the motions of resetting it this time.
Greg
The first oil change on my truck was at 3759 miles; the perform service light came on a few weeks and miles later. At the time of the oil & filter change, I did not know the "perform service" feature even existed. I simply reset it.
My second oil change was this past Friday at 7523 miles. I did go thru the motions of resetting it this time.
Greg
11-20-2007, 06:15 PM
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My question is... if the overhead comes on at...say 1000 miles and you reset, would the change oil message not come back on within 50 miles of reseting if your oil was infact bad?
Jamie
Jamie
11-20-2007, 07:06 PM
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I think not. The way I understand it, the computer uses various inputs like speed, idling, etc to "guess" when the oil would be contaminated. Reseting should tell the computer to start its guessing game over as if you just changed the oil. It doesn't actually do any chemical analysis of the actual oil so would have no way to know if you really changed it.
11-21-2007, 05:52 PM
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It is not a cummins feature it is something that is a dodge feature.
Read HERE:
Read HERE:
Solution: Thanks for your Email message. You have contacted Cummins, Inc. at our Customer Assistance Center located in Columbus, Indiana. This is our worldwide headquarters and has been our home since Clessie Cummins founded the company February 3, 1919. The message you are inquiring about is not a Cummins function. This is a function of a Dodge part/product. This question should be referred to them for an answer. Cummins designs and supplies the Cummins 6B5.9 and ISB 24-Valve turbo diesel engines to DaimlerChrysler, however, DaimlerChrysler warrants the diesel engine and truck completely, as a package unit. Cummins, Inc. and authorized Service Providers cannot provide warranty coverage on Dodge Ram trucks powered with Cummins diesel engines, since all warranties are handled by the Dodge dealers. To find the closest Dodge service, anywhere in North America, call Chrysler at 800-992-1997. For assistance with Dodge Ram truck issues, Dodge requires a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) for vehicle identification (i.e., model, year, build plant, etc.). Always have your VIN number available when requesting assistance with your Dodge vehicle. When bringing a Dodge truck to a Dodge dealer for warranty service, you may also wish to verify that the service department is availing themselves of the diesel technician troubleshooting assistance that is available to Dodge dealers by way of their S.T.A.R. Hotline. Dodge dealers may call the DaimlerChrysler Hotline for technical assistance. Prior to 2004 model year, Dodge warranty on the engine was 5 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. The warranty coverage for the Cummins Turbo Diesel in the 2004 model year Dodge Ram is 7 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, and is handled by Dodge dealers, not Cummins. See your local Dodge dealer or www.dodge.com <http://www.dodge.com> for further details regarding this warranty coverage. Customers should call Dodge Customer Service Hotline (800-992-1997) for assistance. We thank you for your interest in Cummins products. We occasionally misunderstand a question. If our answer to your communication looks like we have misunderstood your e-mail please reply with further inquiry. To locate the nearest Cummins-authorized Dealer or Distributor Service Provider call our toll free customer assistance line 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357) or for computer assistance in locating a Service Provider, use Cummins Service Locator, which can be found on Cummins website: http://wsl.cummins.com/ServiceLocato...n=showworldmap Please let us know if you have other questions and if away from your computer or have a time-critical request that needs more urgent attention, feel free to call us toll-free (from North America) on 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357). Cummins Email (via webpage): http://www.cummins.com/cmi/content.j...33&menuIndex=7 Customer Assistance CenterCummins, Inc.Columbus, Indiana, USA