My lift pump/ CP3 feed solution
12-26-2005, 11:37 AM
#46
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The banjos should be available at any Bosch dealer.
When I tapped them I drilled the tap hole a bit on the small side. 1/8" NPT normally calls for #D bit (0.246" dia). I went a couple sizes (1/64") smaller than that.
The ID of the banjo bolt is larger than 0.246", so drilling the bolt weakens it. Be careful not to over torque the bolts when you put then back on. I dunno what the torque rating is. It doesn't take much to seal them anyway because of the washer they use.
I drilled and tapped mine on a lathe because I didn't want to weaken the banjo wall if I wasn't concentric. I drilled them from the head side. I wonder if one could drill them manually by going from the thread end with a bit that just fit the bore and then going one size larger than that. I think I'd give this a try.
KEEP EVERYTHING VERY CLEAN.
There are two places to mount a pressure gauge. One is upstream of the filter to monitor its backpressure and the other would be prior to the CP3. I find the later unnecessary because as long as the pump runs and pushes fuel, all we need to do is watch the filter backpressure. A 392 will crack the filter assembly lid and blow fuel out if the filter gets too plugged. This happens at about 60 PSI.
A very clean installation would be a GSL392 mounted in the tank and the bypass on the pump. Very neat and easy to do, except you have to drop the tank to do it. At least these trucks are new.
When I tapped them I drilled the tap hole a bit on the small side. 1/8" NPT normally calls for #D bit (0.246" dia). I went a couple sizes (1/64") smaller than that.
The ID of the banjo bolt is larger than 0.246", so drilling the bolt weakens it. Be careful not to over torque the bolts when you put then back on. I dunno what the torque rating is. It doesn't take much to seal them anyway because of the washer they use.
I drilled and tapped mine on a lathe because I didn't want to weaken the banjo wall if I wasn't concentric. I drilled them from the head side. I wonder if one could drill them manually by going from the thread end with a bit that just fit the bore and then going one size larger than that. I think I'd give this a try.
KEEP EVERYTHING VERY CLEAN.
There are two places to mount a pressure gauge. One is upstream of the filter to monitor its backpressure and the other would be prior to the CP3. I find the later unnecessary because as long as the pump runs and pushes fuel, all we need to do is watch the filter backpressure. A 392 will crack the filter assembly lid and blow fuel out if the filter gets too plugged. This happens at about 60 PSI.
A very clean installation would be a GSL392 mounted in the tank and the bypass on the pump. Very neat and easy to do, except you have to drop the tank to do it. At least these trucks are new.
12-26-2005, 11:53 AM
#47
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One more comment on stacking pumps... ie keeping the stock lift pump in the tank and using an external pump as a "booster".
Pumps like the Holley blue aren't designed to be a booster pump. They are designed to suck right from the tank. I'm not sure what happens when you pressure feed such a pump.
The other problem with 2 pumps inline is that if one pumps fails it takes shuts down the flow to the CP3. Pumps are very restrictive when they aren't running.
Pumps like the Holley blue aren't designed to be a booster pump. They are designed to suck right from the tank. I'm not sure what happens when you pressure feed such a pump.
The other problem with 2 pumps inline is that if one pumps fails it takes shuts down the flow to the CP3. Pumps are very restrictive when they aren't running.
12-26-2005, 12:49 PM
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John Kennedy has the pumps you need for required flow and pressure, we installed two a few weeks ago on a third generation between the tank and filter, volume is limited due to the cummins stock 3/8 line size, but pressure on a 600hp cummins would not drop less than 14psi on a wot run, on idle it was around 19psi, also seen a bit more smoke than before the install...
pumps are good for 25000 hrs, and so far no reports of pump leaks... they also flow threw the pumps if they are off, with almost no flow restriction, John had did much research and from our findings it is a great pump prior to the cp3
pumps are good for 25000 hrs, and so far no reports of pump leaks... they also flow threw the pumps if they are off, with almost no flow restriction, John had did much research and from our findings it is a great pump prior to the cp3
12-26-2005, 01:11 PM
#49
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" volume is limited due to the cummins stock 3/8 line size"
100 PSI on a 3/8" line is a whole lot of fuel. The 3/8" line size shouldn't have any effect on the fuel flow with the right pump/setup.
Are you people understanding the distinction between a low pressure carburetor type fuel pump and a real FUEL INJECTION type fuel pump ?
Let me explain.
Most of these pumps started as gasoline automobile pumps. Gasoline autos have 2 types of fuel systems, those for carburetors and those for electronic fuel injection.
The carb systems run low supply pressures because the float bowl valves in a carb can only handle a few PSI of supply pressure.
The electronic fuel injection systems run 30 to 60 PSI of supply pressure to the fuel injectors so that the fuel is well atomized when it comes out of the injector. The pumps for systems like these will output 80 to 100 PSI with no problem. The rails have a pressure relief on them to keep constant pressure on the injectors. The pumps in these systems are designed to push fuel at 60PSI for thousands and thousands of hours. The pumps have internal pressure reliefs. They are cooled by the fuel they pump.
Their is a HUGE difference in a carb pump and an electronic fuel injection pump. Unfortunately gasoline hot rodders tend to be carb type guys, so the carb type pumps are prevalent in the aftermarket. But I highly recommend an electronic fuel injection type pump. And one that is rated for diesel fuel no less.
The carb pumps tend to be vane or gear pumps. Their motors are NOT cooled by the fuel they pump. The fuel injector pumps are gerotor pumps. They ARE cooled by the fuel they pump. You can tell these pumps because they can be immersed in the fuel tank or the fuel inlet comes in one end of the "motor" and goes out the other end. (see the Walbro GS392 pictures to see what I mean.)
The FASS pump is NOT cooled by fuel. It is air cooled. The FASS pump is totally enclosed. Air does not get to the armature and brushes to cool them.
The Walbro pump is cooled by the fuel it pumps. The armature and brushes run in FUEL staying as hot or cold as the fuel they pump. The fuel also lubricates the armature and brushes.
Guess which pump is going to last longer ? Does FASS provide a pressure/volume curve for their pump ?
I don't mean to pick on FASS here, but people need to understand what they are buying.
The pressure drop on a 3/8" line doesn't slow down a fuel injection type pump at all. The pressure drop on a 3/8" line at high flow would be 10 PSI max and if you look at the curves on the Walbro pump, the delivery changes very little for 10PSI of pressure, until it is up at more than 100 PSI. 10 PSI will stop some carb pumps completely.
Honestly, guys, I've got no affiliation with Walbro. And I drive a Ford. The Walbro is a great pump. It and a bypass is ALL you need to feed your CP3.
I don't know why people want to spend big bucks on these fancy carb type fuel pumps.
The thing about these carb type pumps is that as soon as the pressure gets to 10-20PSI due to filter plugging they stop feeding the CP3 and then the pump itself burns out. You get two wrecked pumps for the price of one. (Two actually !) First the lift pump goes and then the CP3 goes. Lots of fun !
And I can't think of any pump that flows fuel through it when it isn't running. Unless it has a checkvalve bypass line going around it.
Some of this aftermarket stuff is not the best quality. The Walbro pumps are OEM in a number of fuel injected vehicles. Very high quality. If you really want to spend big bucks on a pump, go buy the stock Ford SD Bosch pump. It is very good quality too.
100 PSI on a 3/8" line is a whole lot of fuel. The 3/8" line size shouldn't have any effect on the fuel flow with the right pump/setup.
Are you people understanding the distinction between a low pressure carburetor type fuel pump and a real FUEL INJECTION type fuel pump ?
Let me explain.
Most of these pumps started as gasoline automobile pumps. Gasoline autos have 2 types of fuel systems, those for carburetors and those for electronic fuel injection.
The carb systems run low supply pressures because the float bowl valves in a carb can only handle a few PSI of supply pressure.
The electronic fuel injection systems run 30 to 60 PSI of supply pressure to the fuel injectors so that the fuel is well atomized when it comes out of the injector. The pumps for systems like these will output 80 to 100 PSI with no problem. The rails have a pressure relief on them to keep constant pressure on the injectors. The pumps in these systems are designed to push fuel at 60PSI for thousands and thousands of hours. The pumps have internal pressure reliefs. They are cooled by the fuel they pump.
Their is a HUGE difference in a carb pump and an electronic fuel injection pump. Unfortunately gasoline hot rodders tend to be carb type guys, so the carb type pumps are prevalent in the aftermarket. But I highly recommend an electronic fuel injection type pump. And one that is rated for diesel fuel no less.
The carb pumps tend to be vane or gear pumps. Their motors are NOT cooled by the fuel they pump. The fuel injector pumps are gerotor pumps. They ARE cooled by the fuel they pump. You can tell these pumps because they can be immersed in the fuel tank or the fuel inlet comes in one end of the "motor" and goes out the other end. (see the Walbro GS392 pictures to see what I mean.)
The FASS pump is NOT cooled by fuel. It is air cooled. The FASS pump is totally enclosed. Air does not get to the armature and brushes to cool them.
The Walbro pump is cooled by the fuel it pumps. The armature and brushes run in FUEL staying as hot or cold as the fuel they pump. The fuel also lubricates the armature and brushes.
Guess which pump is going to last longer ? Does FASS provide a pressure/volume curve for their pump ?
I don't mean to pick on FASS here, but people need to understand what they are buying.
The pressure drop on a 3/8" line doesn't slow down a fuel injection type pump at all. The pressure drop on a 3/8" line at high flow would be 10 PSI max and if you look at the curves on the Walbro pump, the delivery changes very little for 10PSI of pressure, until it is up at more than 100 PSI. 10 PSI will stop some carb pumps completely.
Honestly, guys, I've got no affiliation with Walbro. And I drive a Ford. The Walbro is a great pump. It and a bypass is ALL you need to feed your CP3.
I don't know why people want to spend big bucks on these fancy carb type fuel pumps.
The thing about these carb type pumps is that as soon as the pressure gets to 10-20PSI due to filter plugging they stop feeding the CP3 and then the pump itself burns out. You get two wrecked pumps for the price of one. (Two actually !) First the lift pump goes and then the CP3 goes. Lots of fun !
And I can't think of any pump that flows fuel through it when it isn't running. Unless it has a checkvalve bypass line going around it.
Some of this aftermarket stuff is not the best quality. The Walbro pumps are OEM in a number of fuel injected vehicles. Very high quality. If you really want to spend big bucks on a pump, go buy the stock Ford SD Bosch pump. It is very good quality too.
12-26-2005, 01:34 PM
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On a truck with the LP engine mounted, wouldn't it be necessary to remove and bypass the old LP when installing this setup? I would assume the old LP restrict the flow to the CP3.
Jason
Jason
12-26-2005, 01:37 PM
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"On a truck with the LP engine mounted, wouldn't it be necessary to remove and bypass the old LP when installing this setup? I would assume the old LP restrict the flow to the CP3."
YES. You have to remove the old lift pump.
YES. You have to remove the old lift pump.
12-26-2005, 02:11 PM
#52
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Don't PM me about your lift pump problems. Everything you need to know is in this thread and if it isn't, ask it in the thread so that everyone can see the question and answer.
I wrote a post on CP3s being rebuildable. Here it is
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ad.php?t=86694
I wrote a post on CP3s being rebuildable. Here it is
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ad.php?t=86694
12-26-2005, 02:14 PM
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Don't PM me about your lift pump problems. Everything you need to know is in this thread and if it isn't, ask it in the thread so that everyone can see the question and answer.
Jason
12-26-2005, 02:27 PM
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Here is a post about FASS pumps. Note the comment about brushes wearing out. What have I been saying about the Walbros being cooled and lubricated by the fuel ? Note it is only running at 15PSI. The Walbro will run at 80 PSI forever.
This guy probably cooked his VP44 too. (Its on a 2nd gen.)
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...d.php?t=146821
-----------------------------------------------
Oh Bad Fuel Pressure!
Bought a fass last feb. Started out with great fp-15 psi. Oct. rolled around, 12-13 psi, then 7-8, then 4-5, now 0 on start up and if im lucky 4 psi after running a while....what is wrong with my expensive fuel pump?!?! Thanks in advance.
----------------------------------------------
Call DPP the FASS has a 4 YEAR WARRANTY!!
----------------------------------------------
fuel filter?
How about prefilter between pump and tank?
---------------------------------------------
Everything in the tank is good, but there is no fuel coming out of the return line, and it doesnt sound like its running, this is on a 01' 24 valve, not the 12v on my sig. Anything electrical, or fixable at home type stuff been going wrong with these units?
----------------------------------------------
I have heard on more than one occasion that the FASS can eat brushes in the motor. Contact the vendor you bought it from and get another set. This is usually the fix.
And if you have 0 fuel pressure, how is it even running? Are you 100% sure that the gauge is good?
This guy probably cooked his VP44 too. (Its on a 2nd gen.)
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...d.php?t=146821
-----------------------------------------------
Oh Bad Fuel Pressure!
Bought a fass last feb. Started out with great fp-15 psi. Oct. rolled around, 12-13 psi, then 7-8, then 4-5, now 0 on start up and if im lucky 4 psi after running a while....what is wrong with my expensive fuel pump?!?! Thanks in advance.
----------------------------------------------
Call DPP the FASS has a 4 YEAR WARRANTY!!
----------------------------------------------
fuel filter?
How about prefilter between pump and tank?
---------------------------------------------
Everything in the tank is good, but there is no fuel coming out of the return line, and it doesnt sound like its running, this is on a 01' 24 valve, not the 12v on my sig. Anything electrical, or fixable at home type stuff been going wrong with these units?
----------------------------------------------
I have heard on more than one occasion that the FASS can eat brushes in the motor. Contact the vendor you bought it from and get another set. This is usually the fix.
And if you have 0 fuel pressure, how is it even running? Are you 100% sure that the gauge is good?
12-26-2005, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Superduty
One more comment on stacking pumps... ie keeping the stock lift pump in the tank and using an external pump as a "booster".
Pumps like the Holley blue aren't designed to be a booster pump. They are designed to suck right from the tank. I'm not sure what happens when you pressure feed such a pump.
The other problem with 2 pumps inline is that if one pumps fails it takes shuts down the flow to the CP3. Pumps are very restrictive when they aren't running.
Pumps like the Holley blue aren't designed to be a booster pump. They are designed to suck right from the tank. I'm not sure what happens when you pressure feed such a pump.
The other problem with 2 pumps inline is that if one pumps fails it takes shuts down the flow to the CP3. Pumps are very restrictive when they aren't running.
I put a pusher pump (carter 4601) on my 99 CTD in-line on frame rail and left the OEM one in place. I could shut either one off and yes pressure would drop to about 10psi but still had plenty of pressure to supply fuel to the Vp44. How long the system would have lasted with just one pump running I do not know because I never had to run with just one pump, I felt each other helped the other survive.
12-26-2005, 03:01 PM
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Must have been vane pumps. Wouldn't work with a gerotor.
So much grief with a friggin $100 fuel pump on a $8K engine on a $40K truck. Almost beyond belief.
Fuel shops love Dodge Cummins trucks out of warranty.
So much grief with a friggin $100 fuel pump on a $8K engine on a $40K truck. Almost beyond belief.
Fuel shops love Dodge Cummins trucks out of warranty.
12-26-2005, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Superduty
Must have been vane pumps. Wouldn't work with a gerotor.
So much grief with a friggin $100 fuel pump on a $8K engine on a $40K truck. Almost beyond belief.
Fuel shops love Dodge Cummins trucks out of warranty.
So much grief with a friggin $100 fuel pump on a $8K engine on a $40K truck. Almost beyond belief.
Fuel shops love Dodge Cummins trucks out of warranty.
What are the in-tank pumps?
12-26-2005, 03:11 PM
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One more thing people have to consider when installing fuel filters in line some where is cold temps. They will plug without some type of heat system or alot of blended fuel and or anti-gel additive.
12-26-2005, 03:19 PM
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the duramax uses a 1/2 inch fuel line and still sees presure drops on wot with a good lift pump installed, most heavy modded cummins i have talked to replace the 3/8 with a larger line, we found any higher than 40 psi liftpump pressure to the cp3 has caused problems to the fuel filter canister