1 piece drive line???!!
05-03-2008, 08:59 AM
#32
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Don't be so quick to throw Dodge under the bus.
First, the carrrier bearing mounting bracket can be unbolted - so no worries with the 1-pc aluminum propeller shaft... TSB was no doubt generated to prevent the occasional tech from leaving the bracket in place during a conversion (some of our tech brethren aren't exactly rocket scientists!
). OEMs do their best to idiot-proof parts & procedures in order to keep warranty costs down.
Also, large price discrepancies are usually due to unequal comparisons - like one quote for parts only (and dealers will often give 10% discount if asked politely) and the other for parts & shop labor.
I'd buy an aluminum shaft for $ 4XX.00
First, the carrrier bearing mounting bracket can be unbolted - so no worries with the 1-pc aluminum propeller shaft... TSB was no doubt generated to prevent the occasional tech from leaving the bracket in place during a conversion (some of our tech brethren aren't exactly rocket scientists!
). OEMs do their best to idiot-proof parts & procedures in order to keep warranty costs down.Also, large price discrepancies are usually due to unequal comparisons - like one quote for parts only (and dealers will often give 10% discount if asked politely) and the other for parts & shop labor.
I'd buy an aluminum shaft for $ 4XX.00
05-03-2008, 11:56 AM
#33
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Don't be so quick to throw Dodge under the bus.
First, the carrrier bearing mounting bracket can be unbolted - so no worries with the 1-pc aluminum propeller shaft... TSB was no doubt generated to prevent the occasional tech from leaving the bracket in place during a conversion (some of our tech brethren aren't exactly rocket scientists!). OEMs do their best to idiot-proof parts & procedures in order to keep warranty costs down.
Also, large price discrepancies are usually due to unequal comparisons - like one quote for parts only (and dealers will often give 10% discount if asked politely) and the other for parts & shop labor.
I'd buy an aluminum shaft for $ 4XX.00
First, the carrrier bearing mounting bracket can be unbolted - so no worries with the 1-pc aluminum propeller shaft... TSB was no doubt generated to prevent the occasional tech from leaving the bracket in place during a conversion (some of our tech brethren aren't exactly rocket scientists!
). OEMs do their best to idiot-proof parts & procedures in order to keep warranty costs down.Also, large price discrepancies are usually due to unequal comparisons - like one quote for parts only (and dealers will often give 10% discount if asked politely) and the other for parts & shop labor.
I'd buy an aluminum shaft for $ 4XX.00
Thing is the bulletin didn't say the bracket should be removed (I'm not sure if the welded bracket could interfere also, I haven't actually looked, and also compared to a frame on an 08), it said DO NOT replace it with the one piece, and also mentioned the launch shudder issue by name.
So they know there is a legitimate issue, they have solved it (I assume) but are unwilling to help previous owners. The most interesting part I found was that they did mention it as a possible cure for lauch shudder, but discouraging it. Trying to head people off at the pass so they (DC) don't have to pay for a new driveshaft.
If they were happy with the old design, they wouldn't have changed the 2 piece.
I find it disappointing they have a fix, but are unwilling to help. "Charactistic of the vehicle" keeps coming up as thier lame explanation.
Buy a truck with a chronic issue, find yourself banging your against the wall, and ask about frustration before "throwing DC under the bus". (I'm not directing this at you personally, I read lots of your posts and know your a good guy). I just wish they would step up and help.
The driveshaft I priced out was complete with slip joint and u-joints ready to bolt in, but different country, but still almost double.
05-03-2008, 12:02 PM
#34
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I would love to try it before I bought one though. We'll see how tinbanger makes out.
05-03-2008, 04:49 PM
#35
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So they know there is a legitimate issue, they have solved it (I assume) but are unwilling to help previous owners.
I suspect the aluminum driveshaft may be a better design as well, although it has it's own potential disadvantages.
The most interesting part I found was that they did mention it as a possible cure for lauch shudder, but discouraging it. Trying to head people off at the pass so they (DC) don't have to pay for a new driveshaft.
That's speculative - perhaps Dodge is waiting for enough positive empirical results to amass before recommending this "fix".
If they were happy with the old design, they wouldn't have changed the 2 piece.
The old design is completely satisfactory for it's intended use; the problem is that most HD Rams aren't used for what they were built to do.
I find it disappointing they have a fix, but are unwilling to help. "Charactistic of the vehicle" keeps coming up as thier lame explanation.
IMO it's not a lame explanation, but rather an accurate description...
Buy a truck with a chronic issue, find yourself banging your against the wall, and ask about frustration before "throwing DC under the bus". (I'm not directing this at you personally, I read lots of your posts and know your a good guy).Thanks
I just wish they would step up and help.
Since you've read many of my posts, you probably already know that Dodge designed the HD Rams to be heavily loaded - even expected them to be routinely overloaded - and built them to reliably handle it, although that durability doesn't come without sacrifices.
For instance, the high spring rates/capacity in the leaf packs makes the HD Rams ride nose-down empty (or lightly loaded) - that's why front leveling kits have become so popular!
However, driving the truck around with the U-joints operating near the limit of their designed alignment envelope (due to the high rear ride height) often cause issues like the one you're dealing with. Fuel economy aside, these trucks generally ride better & last longer when used closer to GVWR than curb weight.
Now, I'm not sure what your exact situation is, though I do know most trucks that experience driveline shudder suffer from a problem that didn't originate with the engineers!
The driveshaft I priced out was complete with slip joint and u-joints ready to bolt in, but different country, but still almost double.
I suspect the aluminum driveshaft may be a better design as well, although it has it's own potential disadvantages.
The most interesting part I found was that they did mention it as a possible cure for lauch shudder, but discouraging it. Trying to head people off at the pass so they (DC) don't have to pay for a new driveshaft.
That's speculative - perhaps Dodge is waiting for enough positive empirical results to amass before recommending this "fix".
If they were happy with the old design, they wouldn't have changed the 2 piece.
The old design is completely satisfactory for it's intended use; the problem is that most HD Rams aren't used for what they were built to do.
I find it disappointing they have a fix, but are unwilling to help. "Charactistic of the vehicle" keeps coming up as thier lame explanation.
IMO it's not a lame explanation, but rather an accurate description...
Buy a truck with a chronic issue, find yourself banging your against the wall, and ask about frustration before "throwing DC under the bus". (I'm not directing this at you personally, I read lots of your posts and know your a good guy).Thanks
I just wish they would step up and help.Since you've read many of my posts, you probably already know that Dodge designed the HD Rams to be heavily loaded - even expected them to be routinely overloaded - and built them to reliably handle it, although that durability doesn't come without sacrifices.
For instance, the high spring rates/capacity in the leaf packs makes the HD Rams ride nose-down empty (or lightly loaded) - that's why front leveling kits have become so popular!
However, driving the truck around with the U-joints operating near the limit of their designed alignment envelope (due to the high rear ride height) often cause issues like the one you're dealing with. Fuel economy aside, these trucks generally ride better & last longer when used closer to GVWR than curb weight.
Now, I'm not sure what your exact situation is, though I do know most trucks that experience driveline shudder suffer from a problem that didn't originate with the engineers!
The driveshaft I priced out was complete with slip joint and u-joints ready to bolt in, but different country, but still almost double.
05-04-2008, 12:27 AM
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Well both. The driveshaft would be backordered to Wisconsin, and I'm north of there. Price would be in Can$.
Also, just to clarify, my truck is 100% stock, except for the modifications I've made trying to deal with the launch shudder, and it has done it since I test drove it. Dealership said since the truck hadn't been PDIed yet, that would take care of it. After that it was still there, but they assured me they could fix it. I also read the service bulletin, and had faith it was a fairly easy fix. Dealership put a new driveshaft on it, then and said that was al they could do, and "characteristic of the vehicle" comment comes up.
As for your comment about not using the truck for it's intended use, I pull a 32' fifth wheel with it, and it does it 10 times worse when loaded. I have adjusted pinion angles, shimmed the center bearing, any combination I could think, but have never gotten it to stop when loaded. I followed the service bulletin to the letter, and it was actually worse.
My last resort was to try traction bars, (which would serve to hold the pinion angle steady, not let it torque up) but I haven't quite got them finished. I have a list as long as my arm ahead of them right now and besides, it should not be up to me to fix this.
Ever wonder how it feels to pull away from a stop sign with 11,000 lbs behind you and be afraid your going to break something because your truck shakes so bad? Yes it is that bad.
They have done nothing to help me, other than basically tell me it's supposed to do it. Wrong, I didn't spent that much money on a truck, left it stock, and used it for it's intended purpose, to have it rattle my teeth every time I tow with it. If you were in my situation, would you be happy?
Also, just to clarify, my truck is 100% stock, except for the modifications I've made trying to deal with the launch shudder, and it has done it since I test drove it. Dealership said since the truck hadn't been PDIed yet, that would take care of it. After that it was still there, but they assured me they could fix it. I also read the service bulletin, and had faith it was a fairly easy fix. Dealership put a new driveshaft on it, then and said that was al they could do, and "characteristic of the vehicle" comment comes up.
As for your comment about not using the truck for it's intended use, I pull a 32' fifth wheel with it, and it does it 10 times worse when loaded. I have adjusted pinion angles, shimmed the center bearing, any combination I could think, but have never gotten it to stop when loaded. I followed the service bulletin to the letter, and it was actually worse.
My last resort was to try traction bars, (which would serve to hold the pinion angle steady, not let it torque up) but I haven't quite got them finished. I have a list as long as my arm ahead of them right now and besides, it should not be up to me to fix this.
Ever wonder how it feels to pull away from a stop sign with 11,000 lbs behind you and be afraid your going to break something because your truck shakes so bad? Yes it is that bad.
They have done nothing to help me, other than basically tell me it's supposed to do it. Wrong, I didn't spent that much money on a truck, left it stock, and used it for it's intended purpose, to have it rattle my teeth every time I tow with it. If you were in my situation, would you be happy?
05-04-2008, 10:22 AM
#38
My carrier bearing plate is bolted to the frame with four bolts and then two bolts hold it to that. Seems like you'd just unbolt it.
In any event, I shimmed my carrier bearing 1/2" and it worked to return it back to normal (very slight shutter), I then added another 1/4" to it for 3/4" total and now it's virtually gone. Not sure what it will be like under load the summer, but I don't expect a problem since I didn't really have one before.
In any event, I shimmed my carrier bearing 1/2" and it worked to return it back to normal (very slight shutter), I then added another 1/4" to it for 3/4" total and now it's virtually gone. Not sure what it will be like under load the summer, but I don't expect a problem since I didn't really have one before.
05-04-2008, 01:05 PM
#39
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Like I posted earlier, I really don't know what your situation is - that's why I referred to this known issue on a general basis.
I wouldn't be in your situation, since it's much easier to diagnose & correct problems in person... I'd have fixed it already.
If your problem is worse when loaded, you need to have the pinion angle checked, and reposition and/or shim the rear axle to correct the driveline angles.
Hopefully, someone will figure out the problem for you.
GPS - that's what usually happens!
I wouldn't be in your situation, since it's much easier to diagnose & correct problems in person... I'd have fixed it already.
If your problem is worse when loaded, you need to have the pinion angle checked, and reposition and/or shim the rear axle to correct the driveline angles.
Hopefully, someone will figure out the problem for you.
GPS - that's what usually happens!
05-04-2008, 10:17 PM
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05-04-2008, 10:51 PM
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Ive checked the pinion angle and also changed it numerous times. I got a set of tapered shims available at any driveline shop.
I actually did get it to stop when loaded, with 6 degrees of pinion angle, with the pinion pointed down. Problem was I then created a de-acceleration shudder, hit the brakes and it would do the same shaking. Not exactly a useable fix.
I have spent way too many hours trying to fix this. I'm quite capable of reading an angle gage, as well as and changing shims, and have tried lots of different combinations, essentially everything I could think that cost only my time. Next step is to start replacing the expensive stuff. That would be were I draw the line.
And I hope someone does fix it for me... DC-the guys who should be. (Kind of the whole point in this debate over driveshafts.)
I actually did get it to stop when loaded, with 6 degrees of pinion angle, with the pinion pointed down. Problem was I then created a de-acceleration shudder, hit the brakes and it would do the same shaking. Not exactly a useable fix.
I have spent way too many hours trying to fix this. I'm quite capable of reading an angle gage, as well as and changing shims, and have tried lots of different combinations, essentially everything I could think that cost only my time. Next step is to start replacing the expensive stuff. That would be were I draw the line.
And I hope someone does fix it for me... DC-the guys who should be. (Kind of the whole point in this debate over driveshafts.)
05-05-2008, 10:16 AM
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05-05-2008, 06:20 PM
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05-05-2008, 11:41 PM
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OK, here's what has been changed so far:
Complete driveshaft front to back. Came shipped as an assembly including center bearing. Appears the phasing is good from a visual. Basically this can be ruled out (u-joints as well) as it did not help.
Center bearing has been replaced once since then on an unrelated matter. No difference.
As I stated previoulsy, the driveline angles are definately good. Changing them does make a difference in it's severity, so it is driveline angle related.
Funny thing is, if there is in fact a defective part, it is at least amplifying the shudder, or possibly creating it, but since launch shudder is a fairly common problem, I'm going to say probably amplifying it. So what would amplify the problem, but show no other symptoms?
Rear diff. makes no noise, and the driveline runs smooth after you get past the shudder. Transfer case seems fine as well.
Only thing I can think is a bad pair of rear leaf springs. But they seem to carry load fine. I'm not going to buy a new pair myself to find out.
The one piece driveshaft is a glimmer of hope. Not going to say it is a silver (or is that aluminum?) bullet, but I'd love to bolt one to my truck and find out.
Now hopefully your starting to understand the point I'm at.
Complete driveshaft front to back. Came shipped as an assembly including center bearing. Appears the phasing is good from a visual. Basically this can be ruled out (u-joints as well) as it did not help.
Center bearing has been replaced once since then on an unrelated matter. No difference.
As I stated previoulsy, the driveline angles are definately good. Changing them does make a difference in it's severity, so it is driveline angle related.
Funny thing is, if there is in fact a defective part, it is at least amplifying the shudder, or possibly creating it, but since launch shudder is a fairly common problem, I'm going to say probably amplifying it. So what would amplify the problem, but show no other symptoms?
Rear diff. makes no noise, and the driveline runs smooth after you get past the shudder. Transfer case seems fine as well.
Only thing I can think is a bad pair of rear leaf springs. But they seem to carry load fine. I'm not going to buy a new pair myself to find out.
The one piece driveshaft is a glimmer of hope. Not going to say it is a silver (or is that aluminum?) bullet, but I'd love to bolt one to my truck and find out.
Now hopefully your starting to understand the point I'm at.