Anatomy of a lift pump...
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
It's worth pointing out for those unfamiliar with these pumps, fuel actually flows THRU these pump motors in normal operation whenever the pressure valve is open - and any metal or carbon particles wearing off the motor components eventually end up in the Cummins fuel filter!
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Ok, so I've pretty much taken over this thread. It's all just thinking out loud.... <br><br>I suppose in a full flow situation, the load on the motor is minimal. The worst case is when there's little or no flow, and the bypass is open......<br><br>
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Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
JEEZE - the change in the board has caused posts to scroll so quickly that the "last 50 posts" no longer keeps up, and I miss posts unless I actually retrace thru every forum I participate in - I was afraid that would happen - bummer! :
<br><br>ANYWAY - to answer question directed my way - my pump setup was IMMEDIATELY installed after buying the truck so it's been on there nearly all its 13,000 miles - been a few minor changes, like the bypass I made for the pusher, but that's about it. PSI has remained constant, absolutely NO problems of any kind, and ALL filters are still the originals and showing NO drop in PSI at this time.<br><br>The relay is a low current coil type - and there's NO reason for concern about duty cycle or variations in current - in the first place, voltage/current pulsing only occurs at startup, and usually only cycles once - and relays of this type are MADE for frequent and rapid pulsing - that's their reason for existence! Just be sure to get a low coil current model, and one with heavy contacts - 10 amps at least for a decent margin of safety - 20 amps is better - they come in various values.<br><br>I would guess that under very low fuel flow conditions, like coasting down a long grade, fuel recirculation thru the LP motor (and pusher!) would be at maximum - hard to say how hot it would get, but the sample motor I provided pics of had over 100,000 miles on it, so use your own judgement - windings and commutator looked great...<br><br>I would think conditions might be worse under HEAVY fuel flow to the engine, when there was NO flow thru the pump because it was sending nearly ALL it's flow to the engine and none or at least much less is left to circulate thru the pump motor - and yeah - it blew ME away when I first heard that fuel actually passed THRU the motor!<br><br>Biggest question in my mind concerning the valve failures in these pumps, is WHY do they fail, and under what typical operation? Is it from pulsing from the VP-44's mechanical LP being "reflected" back to the Carter, or rapid "flutter", as often happens in ball valves of this type at varying flow rates? Is it more likely under HIGH recirculating flow, or low flow that keeps the valve on/off its' seat? IF we could get the answer to that, we might be better prepared to provide a fix...<br><br>Alpine is right in the fact that there's not much to be done to mess with the built-in valve in the Carter LP - you have to destroy the pump to get it apart - but if a person figured the built-in valve WAS the greatest weak point, his idea of drilling and tapping a bolt thru the pump housing to mechanically hold the valve closed against it's seat, and THEN install a better quality EXTERNAL valve, might work, and CAN be done easily without damaging the pump - but leave the unknown as to require fuel flow thru the Carter pump motor for cooling and lubrication. Of course, there would always be fuel in that area from the still-open passage on the intake side, and perhaps that is sufficient...<br><br>nuff for now...
<br><br>ANYWAY - to answer question directed my way - my pump setup was IMMEDIATELY installed after buying the truck so it's been on there nearly all its 13,000 miles - been a few minor changes, like the bypass I made for the pusher, but that's about it. PSI has remained constant, absolutely NO problems of any kind, and ALL filters are still the originals and showing NO drop in PSI at this time.<br><br>The relay is a low current coil type - and there's NO reason for concern about duty cycle or variations in current - in the first place, voltage/current pulsing only occurs at startup, and usually only cycles once - and relays of this type are MADE for frequent and rapid pulsing - that's their reason for existence! Just be sure to get a low coil current model, and one with heavy contacts - 10 amps at least for a decent margin of safety - 20 amps is better - they come in various values.<br><br>I would guess that under very low fuel flow conditions, like coasting down a long grade, fuel recirculation thru the LP motor (and pusher!) would be at maximum - hard to say how hot it would get, but the sample motor I provided pics of had over 100,000 miles on it, so use your own judgement - windings and commutator looked great...<br><br>I would think conditions might be worse under HEAVY fuel flow to the engine, when there was NO flow thru the pump because it was sending nearly ALL it's flow to the engine and none or at least much less is left to circulate thru the pump motor - and yeah - it blew ME away when I first heard that fuel actually passed THRU the motor!<br><br>Biggest question in my mind concerning the valve failures in these pumps, is WHY do they fail, and under what typical operation? Is it from pulsing from the VP-44's mechanical LP being "reflected" back to the Carter, or rapid "flutter", as often happens in ball valves of this type at varying flow rates? Is it more likely under HIGH recirculating flow, or low flow that keeps the valve on/off its' seat? IF we could get the answer to that, we might be better prepared to provide a fix...<br><br>Alpine is right in the fact that there's not much to be done to mess with the built-in valve in the Carter LP - you have to destroy the pump to get it apart - but if a person figured the built-in valve WAS the greatest weak point, his idea of drilling and tapping a bolt thru the pump housing to mechanically hold the valve closed against it's seat, and THEN install a better quality EXTERNAL valve, might work, and CAN be done easily without damaging the pump - but leave the unknown as to require fuel flow thru the Carter pump motor for cooling and lubrication. Of course, there would always be fuel in that area from the still-open passage on the intake side, and perhaps that is sufficient...<br><br>nuff for now...
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
emjay: I assume that you'd need a certain amount of bypass to cool the pump- not necessarily too much. When I played with mine I had the ball lifted a tad and got some circulation (Noticeable by the temp of the fuel in the outlet and the temp of the pump)<br>I think it's much more of a hassle to tune a static bypass to cool the pump without sacrificing the performance of the pump. You could do so by drilling a small hole in the sleeve on the outlet side and index it to pointtowards the motor.<br> Then you'd need an external bypass valve... Just for simplicity I chose to buy a new pump. Also mine was not in the best shape (Vanes run in )<br><br>AlpineRAM
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Regarding the relay -- my concern would not be the electrical cycling, but rather the buzzing of the mechanical components inside over the long term. No big deal, just my $0.02.
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
The buzz of the mechanical parts is not too bad in the relay- maybe it depends on the firmware that's in the ECU but mine makes the 50% duty cycles with impulses of 0.15secs on and off. So this would be a very deep buzz.<br>On my LP the ball had been hammered straight through the valve and was rolling around in the inlet. Therefore I could press it against the seat with a bolt. <br>I don't have any good pics showing my findings, but have some pics of the old lp <br>here<br><br>AlpineRAM
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Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Funny yall are talking about fuel issues, I just pulled the bypass valve off my pump to check it after being told by a Injection shop they replace alot of them. Pulled the valve and other than the ball and spring there was an additional bleed off hole. When I put pressure to the valve it would not hold pressure, not even 5lbs... So I plugged the small orfice and now the valve holds PSI to about 16 or so lbs. <br><br>Now yall have me wondering is that hole there to return some fuel at all times so there is a fresh fuel returning back to the pump for cooling purposes. And dont recall anyone mentioning this additional bleed off on the valve, maybey something new on the 2002's. Any feedback on if I should open the hole back up or not would be great<br><br>I also have a Carter pusher pump that I am working on the bypass and extra filtering part of it so I do not have it on the truck at this time. My reasons for the pusher pump being I am on my 3rd transfer pump @73k and see the next one coming out of my pocket. And also I am not fond of the low fuel pressure at WOT. But I still have the factory banjos and lines also. <br><br>Mabey for now I should re-direct my pump project to a fuel line/restriction project.....<br><br>Take Care,<br>FreightTrain Wayneo<br>
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Freight Train: I think you are talking about the pressure relief valve on the injection pump and not the lift pump. ( I don't think you could pull out the valve from the LP.. Maybe you have some pics or look at the pics in my former post and correct me if I'm wrong with my assumption ...<br><br>AlpineRAM
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Hmmm.... A bleed hole could do at least two things, allow some flow through the motor cavity when the bypass is closed, and maybe dampen sharp hydraulic spikes, possibly reducing the hammering of the check ball ???<br><br>All theory and conjecture, though.
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From: Friends Don't let Friends Drive Power Jokes!!!
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
You could have something there Emjay on the relieving the injection pulse pressure, But still I know when I installed my first fuel pressure gauge a couple of months ago I hooked it in at the fitting at the Injection pump itself and the needle on the gauge bounced so hard it slammed down against the needle stop and broke it in half
...I thought it was funny and I learned something....But if that hole was put there for that reason I am not so sure its working...<br><br>But yall do have me wondering now....Thinkin if I should go undu what I have done to the valve....
...I thought it was funny and I learned something....But if that hole was put there for that reason I am not so sure its working...<br><br>But yall do have me wondering now....Thinkin if I should go undu what I have done to the valve....
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Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Dunno what makes the difference, but I direct-connect a hose about 2 feet long to the shrader valve at the inlet to my VP-44 - I use an electric sender on the other end - and have NO trace of guage pulsing installed that way...
Here's a pic of the sender and mount I use, the relay discussed earlier can be seen back on the firewall - it mounts to a bracked secured by a grounding bolt already in that position...
Do you suppose it's possible that the pulsing some report is NOT caused by the VP-44 - but rather from rapid open/close flutter of the ball valve in the lift pump, which would cause the same effect on a guage?
Here's a pic of the sender and mount I use, the relay discussed earlier can be seen back on the firewall - it mounts to a bracked secured by a grounding bolt already in that position...
Do you suppose it's possible that the pulsing some report is NOT caused by the VP-44 - but rather from rapid open/close flutter of the ball valve in the lift pump, which would cause the same effect on a guage?
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Do you suppose it's possible that the pulsing some report is NOT caused by the VP-44 - but rather from rapid open/close flutter of the ball valve in the lift pump, which would cause the same effect on a guage?
And another thought... Knowing that diesel circulates through the lift pump motor and diesel fuel tends to have water in it..... Hmmm.... That must be why they put the motor brushes at the top
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From: Friends Don't let Friends Drive Power Jokes!!!
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Do you suppose it's possible that the pulsing some report is NOT caused by the VP-44 - but rather from rapid open/close flutter of the ball valve in the lift pump, which would cause the same effect on a guage?


