Anatomy of a lift pump...
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Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
[quote author=BigBlue link=board=4;threadid=16913;start=0#158747 date=1057912575]
I'd sure hope it didn't show any signs of wear. With only 400 miles on it. What do you think could be the cause of such low pressures from the factory? Different machining tolerances?
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I would suspect manufacturing tolerance - and there are many possible contributors - weak bypass spring would be a prime suspect, off-tolerance clearances in the pump rotor and/or vanes, too much end clearance between rotor end plates - or there could be minor problems in the motor itself, brushes need to seat in better for maximum power/RPM in the motor - binding in the motor bushings or poor clearance that slows the RPM - many possibilities - but *I* would bet that simply running that pump for a while would see the PSI slowly increase as individual components seat against each other - no problem in my case, since my pusher pump would take up the PSI slack - but COULD be a problem for guys with engine mods, but stock fuel delivery systems who really NEED all the PSI they can get while under heavy loads... I'll get a better idea when I run a pressure/flow test later...
Alpine - yeah, I'm familiar with the PSI in/out differential bit, but am hoping that since my system is running a modded pusher that reduces/bypasses the pusher, and is intended primarily as a low pressure priming and flow assist rather than an all-out pressure booster, that it's milder impact will not radically overboost flow to the stock pump, but rather help it to run at optimum capacity, and still maintain proper internal bypass flow. Unfortunately, I have no way to actually test as to whether that is actually happening or not - again, only time and miles will tell...
Here's a pic of my modded Carter 4600 pusher:
I'd sure hope it didn't show any signs of wear. With only 400 miles on it. What do you think could be the cause of such low pressures from the factory? Different machining tolerances?
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I would suspect manufacturing tolerance - and there are many possible contributors - weak bypass spring would be a prime suspect, off-tolerance clearances in the pump rotor and/or vanes, too much end clearance between rotor end plates - or there could be minor problems in the motor itself, brushes need to seat in better for maximum power/RPM in the motor - binding in the motor bushings or poor clearance that slows the RPM - many possibilities - but *I* would bet that simply running that pump for a while would see the PSI slowly increase as individual components seat against each other - no problem in my case, since my pusher pump would take up the PSI slack - but COULD be a problem for guys with engine mods, but stock fuel delivery systems who really NEED all the PSI they can get while under heavy loads... I'll get a better idea when I run a pressure/flow test later...
Alpine - yeah, I'm familiar with the PSI in/out differential bit, but am hoping that since my system is running a modded pusher that reduces/bypasses the pusher, and is intended primarily as a low pressure priming and flow assist rather than an all-out pressure booster, that it's milder impact will not radically overboost flow to the stock pump, but rather help it to run at optimum capacity, and still maintain proper internal bypass flow. Unfortunately, I have no way to actually test as to whether that is actually happening or not - again, only time and miles will tell...
Here's a pic of my modded Carter 4600 pusher:
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Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
I suppose that to head off questions on the pusher bypass, I should explain - the shown bypass includes a "flopper" valve that SLIGHTLY reduces PSI when functioning normally - reducing max PSI output by about 3-4 psi - this was done because without this arrangement, PSI at the VP-44 was sitting at about 26 PSI at idle - too much for my comfort. Second, I wanted some protection in the fuel delivery in case the added pusher failed for any reason - so if/when the pusher is shut down, the flopper valve reacts to the suction of the stock LP, opens, and allows nearly full normal flow around the pusher as though it wasn't there - actual test shows that I still get 15 PSI at the VP-44 even with the added pusher shut down...
On the other hand, if the stock LP should fail, there SHOULD be enough PSI provided by the added pusher to overcome losses thru the failed stock LP to still allow operation of the Cummins... Details of how the flopper valve was made are displayed in the "pusher pump" section in the web pointer at the top of my sig...
On the other hand, if the stock LP should fail, there SHOULD be enough PSI provided by the added pusher to overcome losses thru the failed stock LP to still allow operation of the Cummins... Details of how the flopper valve was made are displayed in the "pusher pump" section in the web pointer at the top of my sig...
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Gary, Do You wire the pusher into the stock LP pump wire. so it operates in unison with stock pump? I'm new here, but learning alot of things about these trucks and engines.
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Gary: I think that you do have a well thought out system. I was just pointing to the pressure differential bit for guys like me who have run a pusher pump without consideration. I am now using a holley blue with a modded relief valve in the frame rail and have 16psi at idle and 15psi at WOT on the post filter port. (With a good filter of course)- I know that I need something like PushRods -8an kit for the last piece to the VP44. <br>I think that replacing the stock lines with rubber lines can help the stock pump because this dampens the fluctuations caused by the VP44 that let the ball in the relief valve hammer on its seat. I think that this is the reason why some people report longer LP life in the frame rail- because they replaced the stock metal lines with rubber hose and the llonger distance can help too.<br><br>AlpineRAM
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Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
[quote author=vegasbound link=board=4;threadid=16913;start=#158859 date=1057945023]
Gary, Do You wire the pusher into the stock LP pump wire. so it operates in unison with stock pump? I'm new here, but learning alot of things about these trucks and engines.
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I got a lift pump extension wire harness about 6 inches long from Cummins - part # 4025182 - costs about $7, and spliced into that for a control voltage that operates a low-current coil Radio Shack relay with contacts good for 20 amps - THAT relay takes fused power off the main fuse panel to operate the remote added pusher pump - I didn't want to place the additional load of the added pump in parallel with the existing pump and chance damaging its control circuit, this way the added relay and pump is controlled right off the stock LP - here's a pic of the relay and its placement:
Gary, Do You wire the pusher into the stock LP pump wire. so it operates in unison with stock pump? I'm new here, but learning alot of things about these trucks and engines.
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I got a lift pump extension wire harness about 6 inches long from Cummins - part # 4025182 - costs about $7, and spliced into that for a control voltage that operates a low-current coil Radio Shack relay with contacts good for 20 amps - THAT relay takes fused power off the main fuse panel to operate the remote added pusher pump - I didn't want to place the additional load of the added pump in parallel with the existing pump and chance damaging its control circuit, this way the added relay and pump is controlled right off the stock LP - here's a pic of the relay and its placement:
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Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
[quote author=Mark Thomas link=board=4;threadid=16913;start=15#159068 date=1057979776]<br>Is the carter available for the 03' so cummins if yes where can I get one?<br>[/quote]<br><br>Carter makes a fairly wide selection of pumps in varying PSI and volume - your '03 uses a different fuel system than prior years, so not sure if an added pump would have any useful benefit...
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
I just changed out an original 80k miles lift pump that had failed. Took it apart. Yep, the spring for the ball is gone and the ball is just loose in there. Took the rest of it apart too. Just like you found, the commutator was mint, brushes were very good, and the condition of the pump vanes and pump liner were incredible. <br><br>There is NO DOUBT, whatsoever, in my mind that there is NO DESIGN flaw with these pumps, rather an APPLICATION flaw. It is vibration that is killing these pumps. Whether it is from being mounted directly to the engine block of a diesel, or from hydraulic pulsations from the VP44, I dont know. Think about it, this same style pump has been used for years on gasoline engines, and gasoline has essentially no lubricity at all, in fact its a solvent. #2 oil, is just that,,, OIL. Mount it on the frame and put a small pulsation damper on the outlet and I bet they will last the life of the engine. <br><br>Also for the record, I have heard about some huge numbers both in pump flow and $$$ for some of these aftermarket pusher and/or replacement pumps, like 250 GPH or some nonsence. 80 GPH equates to 11,200,000 BTU/Hr of firepower which equates to 4,402 'Horsepower' of firing rate. So figure an engine overall efficiency of 20% ( I think they are better actually) and 80 GPH is good for 880 HP !!!! So the comments that 'the stock lift pump is barely adequate for the stock engine' are full of it. Same marketing ploys that tell you need a 5" exhaust and huge airfilter, only to be restricted by a 3" turbine outlet and a 2.5" compressor inlet.<br><br>Just my $.02<br><br>Zino
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
<br>Hi Gary,<br><br> How long has your pusher pump installation been working.<br>My 02 is still stock, I have 37,000 miles and still on the original lift pump. For peace of mind I feel I need to address the lift pump issue also. I think your opproach to this problem is a good one, thanks for sharing this with the rest of us.<br><br><br>GeneH<br>2002 2500 4X4 HO 6SP
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
[quote author=Zino link=board=4;threadid=16913;start=15#160571 date=1058373409]<br>Also for the record, I have heard about some huge numbers both in pump flow and $$$ for some of these aftermarket pusher and/or replacement pumps, like 250 GPH or some nonsence. 80 GPH equates to 11,200,000 BTU/Hr of firepower which equates to 4,402 'Horsepower' of firing rate. So figure an engine overall efficiency of 20% ( I think they are better actually) and 80 GPH is good for 880 HP !!!! [/quote]<br>Zino: The VP44 uses 2/3rd of the fuel for lubrication and cooling- and there are also losses in the injector that flow back through the return line. <br>If you are in the high performance mods you will need to ensure more cooling of the extremely stressed VP44. If you use the full available plunger travel of the VP44 for injection with a majort box you reduce the fuel that is proporioned for cooling. With these mods the internal lift pump of the VP44 is too small ( can't blame Bosch for this) so we have to add an external supply that provides the necessary amount of flow. I think that the use of better flow banjos or the kits replacing the banjos at all are a step in the right direction, since the only place the fuel flow really counts is on the VP44. <br><br>Just my 2c<br><br>AlpineRAM
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Installing a relay on the Cummins ECM may not be a good idea because the Cummins ECM pulses the fuel pump at 12Hz and 50% duty cycle when cranking. That's cruel and unusual punishment to a mechanical relay.
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
If the check ball is the main failure, perhaps removing the check ball/spring and plugging the bypass and installing an external bypass regulator would be a good idea ??? Anyone ever tried that?
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
emjay: I run this really cheap relay and it takes the stress of the duty cycling during start really good. But just have to look at the start position of the lock and off we go. <br><br>Removing the original bypass valve would involve opening the pump from the lower side and it is a pressed construction. I don't see a way to do this without running into massive leakage problems. I had the ball of the checkvalve of mine held in position by a 2mm bolt that I threaded through the intake. This worked decently, but not really good. Now I have an Holley Blue and this thing works like a charm.<br><br>AlpineRAM
Re:Anatomy of a lift pump...
Oh, I see. I didn't realize that was the de-crimped side. How about sleeving the outlet port to block the flow (see arrow in pic) to the bypass chamber?


