clarson80

^^ I'm with him, taking an average of the two cannot be correct.

MAX340

Its right on the money compared to what?

Does this averaging take into account the possible reaction/breakdown of chemicals?

In this case, I'd trust an actual test far more than a mathematical prediction. "Thats why they play the games" instead of just evaluating the talent and awarding the trophy.

bentwings

I like your analogy

"In this case, I'd trust an actual test far more than a mathematical prediction. "Thats why they play the games" instead of just evaluating the talent and awarding the trophy."

I'm in agreement. I think some additives may average but I'd guess most will not. In fact there may be many detriments. Without actual tests it will only be a WAG at best. Even proportions can make a mess of mixing products.

I'd like to see the bio B2 and Wally 2 stroke combination expanded further. This is probably the most used and one I've been using up untill recently.

Another one is Bio B2 and PS white. Many use this for winter anti gel. So far I haven't found it necessary down to -20 F but we still have some realy cold stuff coming.

Mopar1973man

Reason being is some additive are highly solvent base and very low lubricants like...

Naptha (Coleman Fuel, White Gas, Zippo Lighter Fluid)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naptha
(Used in industrial solvents and cleaning fluids)

Xylene (Paint Thinner)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylene
(Xylene is used as a solvent and in the printing, rubber, and leather industries)

Mineral Spirits (Paint Thinner)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_spirits
(Mineral Spirits is a petroleum distilate commonly used as a paint thinner and mild solvent.)

Naphthalene (Moth *****)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthalene
(primary ingredient of mothballs)

And Many more...These chemical are the basis for most additives on the market. They typically don't contain much lubricants. Hence why they scored low on the HFRR testing done by www.dieselplace.com

http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/2002%2...DS%20Links.htm

But you don't see any mineral oil or lubricating oil listed. So if the product is majority solvent based and extremely low in lubricants its going to THIN OUT a strong lubricant like 2 cycle oil...

Soit more like...

MINERAL SPIRITS, XYLENE, or NAPTHA

and

2 CYCLE OIL

This is why they don't add up but average out...

D.S.

Im curious what the injector pump noise sounds like. There is a slight ticking noise thats only really noticeable at certain rpms or when the engine is heavily loaded (like going up a hill w/ my 24ft stock trailer). THis noise seems to come from the left side of the engine (somewhere behind the steering wheel)--is the the IP? thanks,
Drew

Mopar1973man

Well a buddy came to me with a 92 Dodge Cummins. It had quite a bit of tapping noises. We started out by doing a Valve Adjustment. Afterwards we notice something odd the tapping noise only was on the driver side of the engine. After checking closely we found that the VE pump was the source of the tapping noise. Rather loud too. But the truck has 600K miles on it. Well I asked him if he wanted to try 2 cycle oil... He said sure. After putting in quart of 2 cycle oil and taking a short trip out of town to mix it. In about 5 miles the tapping noise was just about nearly gone. As a matter of fact he bought my 1 gallon jug of 2 cycle oil right out of my truck.

Second story. I'm a captain of the local fire dept here in Idaho. I've also got the job of maintaining 24 fire trucks in our fleet. We got a 6.5L Chevy diesel with a injection knock and SERVICE ENGINE SOON light that can be difficult to start and stalls often. They tried all the usual additive PS, MMO, Standyne, etc. Well I ask the Chief if I could experiment with this peroblem. Well we tried a 32 Oz shot of 2 cycle in this truck. It reduce the injection knock, slightly easier starting, rarely stalls, and extremely rare to see the SERVICE ENGINE SOON light now...

What your hearing is the lack of lubricantation in the fuel for these trucks (pre 2007 trucks) that were designed for LSD (Low Sulfur Diesel) that had a HFRR of <350. So now that ULSD is very dry in lubricants 520 HFRR. You tend to hear more metal to metal noises. Kind of like using the wrong lubricants in your engine.

Dangerous Dave

I've been doing 16oz 2 stroke and 4oz Gray bottle DK for about a year now.

If the thinking really is that the DK kills the benefit of the 2 stroke at all, I'll stop doing that.

Likewise, if 32oz 2 stroke is considered better, I'll do it.

What say you?

Mopar1973man

Ask yourself the question?

How can a product that is got thickness of water be a lubricant?

How can a product made with solvents be a lubricant?

Why is it that most products evaporate? (solvent Content)

Why is it that 2 cycle oil, engine oil, etc. doesn't evaporate? (No solvents)

If you product your using had any kind of lubricant in it... It will NOT EVAPORATE! Think of gasoline, alcohol, etc... They are not lubricants... Neither is the common 3 (Paint thinner, Xylene, or Naptha...)

MAX340

You don't have any evidence how they "average out". You are willing to stake your facts on mathematical conjecture, when the chemicals themsleves may mixe quite differently than the mathematical average.

Three simple things in the vast number of variables will kill your conjecture:

Amount of product used

Product vs. product reaction

Product reaction with fuel vs product reaction with fuel

One example of how you would be wrong:

If one product adds to the HFRR by 17, and another by 33, the result isn't necessarily a 25 average if the active ingredient in each product is the same. In that case, the result might be ADDing the two numbers, or 50.

Furthermore, by your math model, going to 4% biodiesel would be the same cut in the HFRR number. Such is not the case, and is in fact impossible. To go further, one cannot say doubling the percentage of biodiesel would double the cut in the HFRR, because that is impossible given the test numbers.

Again, your math model for combining additives is.... well, here it is:

Bull.

Sorry, but it has to be said.

Now, does anyone have actual numbers on combining certain additives?

MAX340

I say I tried a quart of 2cycle to a tank of diesel, my ratio is about 144:1 I liked the results. I've never used any other additive.

I cannot speak for how the two products you are using interact; I don't believe its a mathematical conclusion.

MAX340

"Thickness" or viscosity has nothing to do with lubricity. 90w120 is very thick, yet its lubricity in an engine is total crap.

That depends on what else is in the product and the ratio of solvants to lubricants.


Point here is this: Your method of determining content of a product isn't reliable.

Tough Old Goat

I dont want to get embroiled here in the lubricity debate,though someone has to do it.
I simply dont know enough about it.
I would however from experience like to say that diesel fuel varies widely from
place to place.
What I would like to see is a test of the major brands to see which is wetter
and which is drier,
It seems to me that the fuel source has the most content and yet is the most questionable factor to be baseing any test results upon.

I have suspected that adding a Cetane booster into a mixture of fuel and Two stroke oil cuts the lubricity,I just had no idea how much it did cut it.
So this test has shown me the error of my ways and I'll use the higher concentration of Two-stroke and stop using the Booster in the future.
For me it was helpful,if incomplete.

Ph4tty

The redline additive you're running is good stuff too. I use either a 1/3 of a bottle of the redline additive or a quart of 2 stroke on every tank. If I'm going to dyno or race I'll go with a full bottle of redline for the cetane boost.

Mopar1973man

Well... There is some factors I can't tell you about... BUt...

Like B2 that is listed from the test you know will never improve any higher that 221 HFRR no mater how much B2 you add you still going to have 221 HFRR... And if you mix a poor additive like MMO or Primrose Power Blend (75 point decrease) your still going to add??? I don't think a weak additve is going to add... Average is the closeest calculated guess I can give...

Most additives are going to hit a ceiling and stop improvement. They will not go any highier. The only way to find this out is to test the HFRR of 100% of a additive. But I don't have that kind of money. But I can safely calculate a average and come to a safe ground...

But on the other hand most oils should be able to reach close to a 0 HFRR I know it... (other than that a lot of 2 cycle snowmobiles will have a short life! ) So its a safe realm for calculated. In stead of getting high hopes for great number that might not be there...

Geez I have no Idea what you have for a engine but I normally use 15W-40... I use 80W-90 in the rear axles (gear cases). Seriously viscosity is important to a degree. Like if you use to light viscosity in a engine it cannot properly lube the engine (say 0W-30) in the sumer. Or if you go to heavy the it to hard for starting running (20W-50) in the winter time. So there is a balance to viscosity of a lubricant. Looking back a thin lubricant cannot lubricate as well as a thicker one...Being that 2 cycle 2 oil is roughly 37 cSt and mineral spirits is 0.7 - 1.6 cSt at 77*F I hardly think a paint thinner is a good lubricant... But 2 cycle oil would be...

But once again you can't put a super thick oil through you injection pump nor do you want to thin out your fuel to a total liquid state like gasoline... But you do need a good fuel lubricant for the older truck that where design to run with 350-460 HFRR (Low Sulfur Diesel). Point is still most of the common additive do reach it by far... But B2, Opti-Lube, AMSOil, and a few other in the table below. Basically you want a additive with the LOWEST HFRR score...

Then you might want to look for yourself on the long listing of MSDS sheets I got of most products!
http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/2002%2...DS%20Links.htm

Then you might want to look up the chemicals...
http://mopar.mopar1973man.com/2002%2.../chemicals.htm

I don't see any lube oils listed here...

It may not be a 100% but is does conclude to the fact there is a highly evaporative solvent in the product. The 3 common will evaporate (Mineral spirits, Naptha, and Xylene) but at different rates but still they evaporate. (also looking at the MSDS sheets help)

This is way I used a average calculation on my numbers. Not knowing how far the number varies it does give a safe point of reference.

Rule of thumb they tend to be drier in the winter time. There was a article posted on another forum about delivery of fuels. At the depot they are suppose to load the truck with fuel and a lube package. But if the machine never injects (because it froze up, malfunction, etc.) the lube package you could have a fuel form 600-800 HFRR in score! No they don't test every load of few either.

As for "Pour Point Depressants" or AKA: Anti-Gels use by some companies...
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/m...7/wcd007de.htm
So I would say it a bit drier...

Ph4tty

Hey moparman! Nice webpage. Thing I can't figure out by looking at your info is what if any effect two stroke would have on cetane. Thats why I'm still running the redline stuff.