VE pump, advanced level
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wish i could help w the photos but that's the reason i don't have any on here. but i sure appreciate your efforts. there's a lot of people here[not me] who have spent years and lots! of dough trying to make numbers w these old trucks when the easy way is just to buy a newer truck. you are to be commended along with the others. keep up the good work. i eagerly await. tc ps i like my old truck too.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 319
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From: Nebraska
UPDATE....
Hello everyone, I've been away from the forum for some time now. My new ISP is giving me fits with access to the forum. Glad to see people are still working with the VE.
I just wanted everyone to know I have sent some parts off to the machine shop with some plans for the modifications. If all goes well the first stage of my VE experiment should be running this spring.
But, Saturday I came across a very unusual variant of the VE that changes things quite a bit..... It will take quite a bit of engineering to adapt the parts, I'll keep you all informed.
If all else fails, a friend of mine said something about a very odd pump he came across that is a 6 plunger rotary pump off a small locomotive, looked to him like it would possibly fit a VE timing cover for a 5.9. I have to see it for myself to believe it but supposedly it was made by........SIGMA
Hello everyone, I've been away from the forum for some time now. My new ISP is giving me fits with access to the forum. Glad to see people are still working with the VE.
I just wanted everyone to know I have sent some parts off to the machine shop with some plans for the modifications. If all goes well the first stage of my VE experiment should be running this spring.
But, Saturday I came across a very unusual variant of the VE that changes things quite a bit..... It will take quite a bit of engineering to adapt the parts, I'll keep you all informed.
If all else fails, a friend of mine said something about a very odd pump he came across that is a 6 plunger rotary pump off a small locomotive, looked to him like it would possibly fit a VE timing cover for a 5.9. I have to see it for myself to believe it but supposedly it was made by........SIGMA
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,053
Likes: 135
From: Tijeras, New Mexico, 7,000ft up
UPDATE....
Hello everyone, I've been away from the forum for some time now. My new ISP is giving me fits with access to the forum. Glad to see people are still working with the VE.
I just wanted everyone to know I have sent some parts off to the machine shop with some plans for the modifications. If all goes well the first stage of my VE experiment should be running this spring.
But, Saturday I came across a very unusual variant of the VE that changes things quite a bit..... It will take quite a bit of engineering to adapt the parts, I'll keep you all informed.
If all else fails, a friend of mine said something about a very odd pump he came across that is a 6 plunger rotary pump off a small locomotive, looked to him like it would possibly fit a VE timing cover for a 5.9. I have to see it for myself to believe it but supposedly it was made by........SIGMA
Hello everyone, I've been away from the forum for some time now. My new ISP is giving me fits with access to the forum. Glad to see people are still working with the VE.
I just wanted everyone to know I have sent some parts off to the machine shop with some plans for the modifications. If all goes well the first stage of my VE experiment should be running this spring.
But, Saturday I came across a very unusual variant of the VE that changes things quite a bit..... It will take quite a bit of engineering to adapt the parts, I'll keep you all informed.
If all else fails, a friend of mine said something about a very odd pump he came across that is a 6 plunger rotary pump off a small locomotive, looked to him like it would possibly fit a VE timing cover for a 5.9. I have to see it for myself to believe it but supposedly it was made by........SIGMA
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,053
Likes: 135
From: Tijeras, New Mexico, 7,000ft up
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,053
Likes: 135
From: Tijeras, New Mexico, 7,000ft up
Found this though..
http://dieselpower.automotive.com/98...photos5-0.html
By now, you've probably heard about the Bosch P-pump, its actual name being the P7100, which is found on '94-'98 Dodges. These mechanical injection pumps are the kings of fuel production and used on drag racers and sled pullers, as well as street-driven trucks. What then, is a Sigma pump? Sigma was a company, like Bosch, that has been out of business for over 30 years. One of the injection pumps that Sigma made in France was for over-the-road semitrucks, and it has now found its way overseas decades later being used by some of the top pullers and drag racers in the country. Darren Morrison and Meacham Evins both run a Sigma in their drag race vehicles, and pulling trucks such as Curt Haisley's Off Constantly and Eric Stacey's Smokenya rely on Sigmas as well. To get the lowdown on this monster pump, we called Columbus Diesel Supply, one of the few companies that still has Sigma cores.
Columbus told us that the Sigmas use oversized injector lines and 16mm plungers instead of the 12mm versions you'd normally find in a Bosch P7100. As engine rpm increases, the window of time you must inject fuel to make peak power gets smaller and smaller. With a Sigma pump, it injects fuel at a much faster rate, which leads to a more efficient engine, and can take a 1,300hp pulling motor up to 1,500 hp. Although the Sigma can be adjusted to inject up to 1,600cc of fuel, most start their tuning at around 950cc. All this power doesn't come cheap, as Sigma pumps run about $9,600. If that's not enough, Columbus also makes a $15,000 "Billet" pump with 17mm plungers that can supply well over 2,000 hp worth of fuel.
http://dieselpower.automotive.com/98...photos5-0.html
By now, you've probably heard about the Bosch P-pump, its actual name being the P7100, which is found on '94-'98 Dodges. These mechanical injection pumps are the kings of fuel production and used on drag racers and sled pullers, as well as street-driven trucks. What then, is a Sigma pump? Sigma was a company, like Bosch, that has been out of business for over 30 years. One of the injection pumps that Sigma made in France was for over-the-road semitrucks, and it has now found its way overseas decades later being used by some of the top pullers and drag racers in the country. Darren Morrison and Meacham Evins both run a Sigma in their drag race vehicles, and pulling trucks such as Curt Haisley's Off Constantly and Eric Stacey's Smokenya rely on Sigmas as well. To get the lowdown on this monster pump, we called Columbus Diesel Supply, one of the few companies that still has Sigma cores.
Columbus told us that the Sigmas use oversized injector lines and 16mm plungers instead of the 12mm versions you'd normally find in a Bosch P7100. As engine rpm increases, the window of time you must inject fuel to make peak power gets smaller and smaller. With a Sigma pump, it injects fuel at a much faster rate, which leads to a more efficient engine, and can take a 1,300hp pulling motor up to 1,500 hp. Although the Sigma can be adjusted to inject up to 1,600cc of fuel, most start their tuning at around 950cc. All this power doesn't come cheap, as Sigma pumps run about $9,600. If that's not enough, Columbus also makes a $15,000 "Billet" pump with 17mm plungers that can supply well over 2,000 hp worth of fuel.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 319
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From: Nebraska
I'm plenty familiar with SIGMA, but have no knowledge of this particular pump. 15mm P&B's on this rotary one from what I hear, don't dare speculate what kind of cc's it could throw out. Supposedly, SIGMA is way old stuff, the last I could figure they were in business was 1983. So, if I got my hands on it, I would have to make parts. However, the needle on the 
factor scale would be pegged if it was a worthwhile venture. If not,a sweet display piece for the shop!
I have to see it with my own eyes to believe it.
factor scale would be pegged if it was a worthwhile venture. If not,a sweet display piece for the shop!I have to see it with my own eyes to believe it.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 39
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From: La Vernia
Ve stuff from someone with resources
I wanted to have a better understanding of the pump and it many variations so, I bought a spare 205 pump the other day and 3 other VE'S from various other applications. It's like my own crazy german junkyard.
To build one flat out evil VE.
Other deductions:
There is an RPM limit to the VE it is somewhere around 5300 rpm according to bosch, there are no sidenotes about 4-6 cylinder. I'm working on finding the acceleration speed limit for the 12mm plunger aside from the fluid dynamics part of the equation.
The inlet passage of the VE is greater than 1/4" inside the pump where it steps down to its smallest size and the fuel line fitting is a major restriction. A visit the the milling machine may reveal a larger passage. For now, I manufactured an inlet fitting in my lathe that is AN-10 or 1/2" pushlock! If the transfer pump is starved then this should fix that problem. It might be possible to dual feed the VE's internal pump if the pressure relief valve were relocated and the transfer pump was creatively reworked.
The pressure relief valve can be recalibrated for higher case pressure. Caution! Debris! housing failure may result from excessive case pressure.
The pressure outlet port of the transfer pump might be restricted by the roller ring under certain timing conditions. This may cause reduced fuel flow at times. There are a few other flow problems in the VE as well. A major one in the high pressure head.
A new fuel screw could be machined for more excessive fuel rates, the current screw bottoms on a shoulder behind the o-ring. I might make one here in the next few weeks.
Bosch made pump cam plates with different lift specs. Research led me to a common mod done by the VW crowd 1.9 cam plate in 1.6 pump. It's cheap science, increasing the lift increases plunger travel and that in turn increases the volume of fuel delivered per stroke (cc's). I'm still searching for a 6 cylinder camplate with higher lift for the cummins, a large displacement 6 cylinder application (7.5 liter or so) may be the ticket. It has to work with the slots in the plunger and not hit the timing plug though. This may take the 12mm head to new numbers.
There is potentially unknown technology in other bosch pumps as well. The predecessors to the newer VP44 were VE variants without mechanical control. VE-E, VP29, VP30, VP36, VP37 pumps may have some undiscovered components that will work in our pumps, I'm still looking for a core from a BMW.
To build one flat out evil VE.Other deductions:
There is an RPM limit to the VE it is somewhere around 5300 rpm according to bosch, there are no sidenotes about 4-6 cylinder. I'm working on finding the acceleration speed limit for the 12mm plunger aside from the fluid dynamics part of the equation.
The inlet passage of the VE is greater than 1/4" inside the pump where it steps down to its smallest size and the fuel line fitting is a major restriction. A visit the the milling machine may reveal a larger passage. For now, I manufactured an inlet fitting in my lathe that is AN-10 or 1/2" pushlock! If the transfer pump is starved then this should fix that problem. It might be possible to dual feed the VE's internal pump if the pressure relief valve were relocated and the transfer pump was creatively reworked.
The pressure relief valve can be recalibrated for higher case pressure. Caution! Debris!
housing failure may result from excessive case pressure.The pressure outlet port of the transfer pump might be restricted by the roller ring under certain timing conditions. This may cause reduced fuel flow at times. There are a few other flow problems in the VE as well. A major one in the high pressure head.
A new fuel screw could be machined for more excessive fuel rates, the current screw bottoms on a shoulder behind the o-ring. I might make one here in the next few weeks.
Bosch made pump cam plates with different lift specs. Research led me to a common mod done by the VW crowd 1.9 cam plate in 1.6 pump. It's cheap science, increasing the lift increases plunger travel and that in turn increases the volume of fuel delivered per stroke (cc's). I'm still searching for a 6 cylinder camplate with higher lift for the cummins, a large displacement 6 cylinder application (7.5 liter or so) may be the ticket. It has to work with the slots in the plunger and not hit the timing plug though. This may take the 12mm head to new numbers.
There is potentially unknown technology in other bosch pumps as well. The predecessors to the newer VP44 were VE variants without mechanical control. VE-E, VP29, VP30, VP36, VP37 pumps may have some undiscovered components that will work in our pumps, I'm still looking for a core from a BMW.
There is also a VE pump that is literally a mirror image of itself, with the fuel and shut down levers on the right side of the pump. If you switched some internal components and placed it next to our VE, two pumps could be run with one simple linkage.....Imagine.
I found a great thread on a VW site that details a VE overhual with tons of great pictures vwdieselparts.com
There is a fine line between genius and insanity..... I have erased this line
I found a great thread on a VW site that details a VE overhual with tons of great pictures vwdieselparts.com
There is a fine line between genius and insanity..... I have erased this line
You cannot increase the transfer pressure to much. You will seize the head and rotor assy. You will also effect the advance piston travel. You would have to run the pump on a test stand to set advance piston travel. As for roller ring being in the way thats just silly. The injection pump moves volumes of fuel via transfer pump to cool the head and rotor, rollers cam disk, etc. If you want to increase the amount of fuel delivery you need to put a aftermarket cam disk http://www.rocken-tech.com/RotorHeads.html If you want even more fuel then use the 14mm head. I do not know what to set the K dimension to and you need to set it up on a test bench and run it out to get it setup correctly. I know someone is reading this and thinking " bought this setup and installed it and did not take it to have it calibrated and its fine"
Its your call.. There are things that you need to check.
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Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Lloydminster,AB Canada
Vic340,
I am not a pump tech but I do have some experience with the little VE. The "K dimension" you are refering too, does it need to be set by using different size spacers. These spacers I'm refering to would be item #52 in the bosch VE exploded view diagram. (in the sticky) If these are not the parts in question could you specify what exatly the "K dimension" is in referece to. Thanks.
I am not a pump tech but I do have some experience with the little VE. The "K dimension" you are refering too, does it need to be set by using different size spacers. These spacers I'm refering to would be item #52 in the bosch VE exploded view diagram. (in the sticky) If these are not the parts in question could you specify what exatly the "K dimension" is in referece to. Thanks.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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From: H'ville Tx.
I think Fergavs has some inside knowledge on the 14mm head and 4mm camplate. He probably got it from the school of hard knocks. I think he has a 14mm head & 4mm camplate setup in a pump ready to go. But anyways all you guys keep up the good work and R&D we need it.
