Rust
08-26-2013, 05:45 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Rust
Hey all, wire wheeled my frame last night down to bare metal. Trying to get all the rust off this frame as I can. I noticed that that frame had more salt on it than rust. Everything is gone and I was wondering what I should do next. Should I wash the frame? I fear that if I start washing it with water and a de-greaser it will just rust over again. What are people doing these days to treat frames and to stop the rust?
This is what I was thinking;
Eastwood Internal Frame Coating
POR-15
The frame coating has zinc in it which actually works. I sprayed epoxy primer on the frame and after a few weeks rust made its way through it. Ended up spraying it with zinc and it still is the same as it was weeks ago. No signs of the rust. I don't want to apply something and then find out that there is a hole there.
This is what I was thinking;
Eastwood Internal Frame Coating
POR-15
The frame coating has zinc in it which actually works. I sprayed epoxy primer on the frame and after a few weeks rust made its way through it. Ended up spraying it with zinc and it still is the same as it was weeks ago. No signs of the rust. I don't want to apply something and then find out that there is a hole there.
08-26-2013, 08:28 AM
#2
I would blow it off really good with air and then wipe it down with wax and grease remover, then etch primer for bare metal then epoxy primer it then top coat of your choice
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08-26-2013, 09:22 AM
#3
Administrator
Hey all, wire wheeled my frame last night down to bare metal. Trying to get all the rust off this frame as I can. I noticed that that frame had more salt on it than rust. Everything is gone and I was wondering what I should do next. Should I wash the frame? I fear that if I start washing it with water and a de-greaser it will just rust over again. What are people doing these days to treat frames and to stop the rust?
This is what I was thinking;
Eastwood Internal Frame Coating
POR-15
The frame coating has zinc in it which actually works. I sprayed epoxy primer on the frame and after a few weeks rust made its way through it. Ended up spraying it with zinc and it still is the same as it was weeks ago. No signs of the rust. I don't want to apply something and then find out that there is a hole there.
This is what I was thinking;
Eastwood Internal Frame Coating
POR-15
The frame coating has zinc in it which actually works. I sprayed epoxy primer on the frame and after a few weeks rust made its way through it. Ended up spraying it with zinc and it still is the same as it was weeks ago. No signs of the rust. I don't want to apply something and then find out that there is a hole there.
08-26-2013, 10:32 AM
#4
Registered User
Thread Starter
While I have never used it myself, por-15 is the choice of the classic car restorers. I know that from my experience with my Porsche. They put it on the inside of body panels and they swear by it. If you want tons of info and experience with it go to 912bbs.org and search por15...Mark
08-26-2013, 11:32 AM
#5
Registered User
Chassis Saver is really good stuff as well. However, you need some rust on the frame for the stuff to properly adhere. The stuff actually bonds to the rust. Ted Nugent had his Bronco coated with the stuff by Stacey David.
I bought a quart and painted the section around my steering gear when I had it off. It has held up very well. I only used about 1/8 of the can. Some say they were able to do an entire frame with a quart.
I bought a quart and painted the section around my steering gear when I had it off. It has held up very well. I only used about 1/8 of the can. Some say they were able to do an entire frame with a quart.
08-26-2013, 01:53 PM
#6
Registered User
I used chassis saver on my frame, took about a gallon but I did cross members and inner fenders etc.
08-26-2013, 02:26 PM
#7
Registered User
My opinion, based on the results of my painful experiences, is that firstly, wire brushing is not an appropriate removal technique. Descaling & media blasting is much better. Wire brushing/wheeling folds rust into the surface -- so even if it looks clean, there are still minute flaws that contain rust, but have been covered over by clean metal. Chemical etching is absolutely necessary. The best results I have had have been using very aggressive acid converters, followed by a gentle wire brushing to remove any loose phosphate dust. I am sure there must be a better way, however.
The biggest problem is, no finish film is perfect, nor will it remain perfect indefinitely. Once the film cracks, water gets into contact with the unprotected metal (indeed, it wicks into the crack) and rust begins to penetrate between the finish and the surface of the metal. At this point, the stronger the film, the better the conditions for corrosion. Anyone in the rust belt has seen rust bubble and spread under cheap powder-coatings. So inhibiting that penetration between the paint film & the base material is the most critical problem. This is why rust converter style finishes fail, and fail so horribly -- you have a tough heavy film that is trapping partially converted rust. Once there is a breach in the film, the existing rust grows like crazy again. Zinc chromate primers are good because the zinc will oxidize before iron, and so "use up" the oxygen available to form rust before the rust forms, and slow down that penetration between the film & the base metal. Once you use a zinc primer, then it seems to me that there is no reason to go with the POR, but I haven't done the experiment. I also advocate a liberal application of a wax-type undercoating to the entire project after all of the painting is complete. It will at least soak into & cover all of the initial flaws in areas that the paint can't penetrate and adhere, especially the micro-flaws in any welded area. It is not tough enough to work on its own, but it really makes a difference when applied over a good finish to seal up those tiny early film imperfections.
Good luck -- it's a lot of work.
The biggest problem is, no finish film is perfect, nor will it remain perfect indefinitely. Once the film cracks, water gets into contact with the unprotected metal (indeed, it wicks into the crack) and rust begins to penetrate between the finish and the surface of the metal. At this point, the stronger the film, the better the conditions for corrosion. Anyone in the rust belt has seen rust bubble and spread under cheap powder-coatings. So inhibiting that penetration between the paint film & the base material is the most critical problem. This is why rust converter style finishes fail, and fail so horribly -- you have a tough heavy film that is trapping partially converted rust. Once there is a breach in the film, the existing rust grows like crazy again. Zinc chromate primers are good because the zinc will oxidize before iron, and so "use up" the oxygen available to form rust before the rust forms, and slow down that penetration between the film & the base metal. Once you use a zinc primer, then it seems to me that there is no reason to go with the POR, but I haven't done the experiment. I also advocate a liberal application of a wax-type undercoating to the entire project after all of the painting is complete. It will at least soak into & cover all of the initial flaws in areas that the paint can't penetrate and adhere, especially the micro-flaws in any welded area. It is not tough enough to work on its own, but it really makes a difference when applied over a good finish to seal up those tiny early film imperfections.
Good luck -- it's a lot of work.
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08-27-2013, 12:19 AM
#8
Registered User
My opinion, based on the results of my painful experiences, is that firstly, wire brushing is not an appropriate removal technique. Descaling & media blasting is much better. Wire brushing/wheeling folds rust into the surface -- so even if it looks clean, there are still minute flaws that contain rust, but have been covered over by clean metal. Chemical etching is absolutely necessary. The best results I have had have been using very aggressive acid converters, followed by a gentle wire brushing to remove any loose phosphate dust. I am sure there must be a better way, however.
The biggest problem is, no finish film is perfect, nor will it remain perfect indefinitely. Once the film cracks, water gets into contact with the unprotected metal (indeed, it wicks into the crack) and rust begins to penetrate between the finish and the surface of the metal. At this point, the stronger the film, the better the conditions for corrosion. Anyone in the rust belt has seen rust bubble and spread under cheap powder-coatings. So inhibiting that penetration between the paint film & the base material is the most critical problem. This is why rust converter style finishes fail, and fail so horribly -- you have a tough heavy film that is trapping partially converted rust. Once there is a breach in the film, the existing rust grows like crazy again. Zinc chromate primers are good because the zinc will oxidize before iron, and so "use up" the oxygen available to form rust before the rust forms, and slow down that penetration between the film & the base metal. Once you use a zinc primer, then it seems to me that there is no reason to go with the POR, but I haven't done the experiment. I also advocate a liberal application of a wax-type undercoating to the entire project after all of the painting is complete. It will at least soak into & cover all of the initial flaws in areas that the paint can't penetrate and adhere, especially the micro-flaws in any welded area. It is not tough enough to work on its own, but it really makes a difference when applied over a good finish to seal up those tiny early film imperfections.
Good luck -- it's a lot of work.
The biggest problem is, no finish film is perfect, nor will it remain perfect indefinitely. Once the film cracks, water gets into contact with the unprotected metal (indeed, it wicks into the crack) and rust begins to penetrate between the finish and the surface of the metal. At this point, the stronger the film, the better the conditions for corrosion. Anyone in the rust belt has seen rust bubble and spread under cheap powder-coatings. So inhibiting that penetration between the paint film & the base material is the most critical problem. This is why rust converter style finishes fail, and fail so horribly -- you have a tough heavy film that is trapping partially converted rust. Once there is a breach in the film, the existing rust grows like crazy again. Zinc chromate primers are good because the zinc will oxidize before iron, and so "use up" the oxygen available to form rust before the rust forms, and slow down that penetration between the film & the base metal. Once you use a zinc primer, then it seems to me that there is no reason to go with the POR, but I haven't done the experiment. I also advocate a liberal application of a wax-type undercoating to the entire project after all of the painting is complete. It will at least soak into & cover all of the initial flaws in areas that the paint can't penetrate and adhere, especially the micro-flaws in any welded area. It is not tough enough to work on its own, but it really makes a difference when applied over a good finish to seal up those tiny early film imperfections.
Good luck -- it's a lot of work.
08-27-2013, 06:17 AM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
Alec, after a large amount of research last night I found something much better than eastwood product. "Crown" sells a zinc/ galvanized coating that can be applied over rust and pitting. The problem with zinc vs self etch primer is that once rust gets under self etch primer it will spread like wild fire. Zinc will not allow it to spread and in a perfect world you could reapply the zinc to the rust spot and its done. The more zinc the more rust will die on the metal.
This is called cold application which is suppose to be equal to or better than a hot dip. Cold takes less than a minute to cure and five minutes to fully cure. Cold spray is effective against salt and chemicals. They test their product in a pressure wash type system using 2,000 PSI of salt water. The first signs of rust started to appear after 3000 hours. From what the technician explain from crown is that this stuff goes on battle ships where they out sell it to the military in 55 gallon drums. The ships are way to large to be hot dipped so this is why they made the product(I think every company says they're military tough?).
I picked up a gallon of crown zinc coating at 93% zinc just to try it. It should arrive here Thursday so I will post pictures of what it looks like. I will know instantly because once I wire wheel or media blast the frame rust is back in a few hours. I've been wire wheeling as I applied POR15 three years ago and it's not coming off sadly. I also sand blasted the por15 and poked a small hole through it. I'm wasting to much media to get it off so the wire wheel is what I've been using. I think once a large amount of zinc is applied the rust will be starved of oxygen and the tiny pin holes will be null.
This is called cold application which is suppose to be equal to or better than a hot dip. Cold takes less than a minute to cure and five minutes to fully cure. Cold spray is effective against salt and chemicals. They test their product in a pressure wash type system using 2,000 PSI of salt water. The first signs of rust started to appear after 3000 hours. From what the technician explain from crown is that this stuff goes on battle ships where they out sell it to the military in 55 gallon drums. The ships are way to large to be hot dipped so this is why they made the product(I think every company says they're military tough?).
I picked up a gallon of crown zinc coating at 93% zinc just to try it. It should arrive here Thursday so I will post pictures of what it looks like. I will know instantly because once I wire wheel or media blast the frame rust is back in a few hours. I've been wire wheeling as I applied POR15 three years ago and it's not coming off sadly. I also sand blasted the por15 and poked a small hole through it. I'm wasting to much media to get it off so the wire wheel is what I've been using. I think once a large amount of zinc is applied the rust will be starved of oxygen and the tiny pin holes will be null.
08-28-2013, 04:49 PM
#11
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You mentioned Crown zink/galvanized coating. Would that be the same as what Crown sprays the vehicles with when you take a truck in for a complete rustproofing?
08-29-2013, 01:07 PM
#12
Registered User
Thread Starter
I'm not sure? It's called cold galvanizing basically. I don't think crown makes it, the parent company starts with an A. Anyways, the high zinc content is what I'm after
08-30-2013, 06:17 AM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
no chemicals as of yet, says there on the truck for delivery today though. Supposed to be yesterday so I'm not sure what is going on. I used naval jelly last night to remove some rust and grease, I'm down to bare metal and the frame believe it or not looks brand new.
09-07-2013, 06:47 PM
#14
Registered User
Sorry I spend so little time on here, I don't get back to anyone in time to be useful.
Cold galvanizing is not as good as dip (hot) galvanizing. When the liquid zinc hits an iron alloy, it dissolves a little of the surface of the underlying material, and forms a new alloy that comprises a certain amount of zinc -- so you end up with 100% zinc transitioning through zinc and iron alloyed, to 100% base metal. Some of those intermediate alloys of zinc & iron are really tough, and they make it much harder for rust to form & spread. As far as I understand the chemistry, no cold process can create those alloys, and without them, rust will penetrate under the coating, and the coating will flake away. But I am curious to see how this stuff works for you, and I am always looking for a better way to fight rust!
Cold galvanizing is not as good as dip (hot) galvanizing. When the liquid zinc hits an iron alloy, it dissolves a little of the surface of the underlying material, and forms a new alloy that comprises a certain amount of zinc -- so you end up with 100% zinc transitioning through zinc and iron alloyed, to 100% base metal. Some of those intermediate alloys of zinc & iron are really tough, and they make it much harder for rust to form & spread. As far as I understand the chemistry, no cold process can create those alloys, and without them, rust will penetrate under the coating, and the coating will flake away. But I am curious to see how this stuff works for you, and I am always looking for a better way to fight rust!
09-09-2013, 06:54 AM
#15
Registered User
Thread Starter
Sorry I spend so little time on here, I don't get back to anyone in time to be useful.
Cold galvanizing is not as good as dip (hot) galvanizing. When the liquid zinc hits an iron alloy, it dissolves a little of the surface of the underlying material, and forms a new alloy that comprises a certain amount of zinc -- so you end up with 100% zinc transitioning through zinc and iron alloyed, to 100% base metal. Some of those intermediate alloys of zinc & iron are really tough, and they make it much harder for rust to form & spread. As far as I understand the chemistry, no cold process can create those alloys, and without them, rust will penetrate under the coating, and the coating will flake away. But I am curious to see how this stuff works for you, and I am always looking for a better way to fight rust!
Cold galvanizing is not as good as dip (hot) galvanizing. When the liquid zinc hits an iron alloy, it dissolves a little of the surface of the underlying material, and forms a new alloy that comprises a certain amount of zinc -- so you end up with 100% zinc transitioning through zinc and iron alloyed, to 100% base metal. Some of those intermediate alloys of zinc & iron are really tough, and they make it much harder for rust to form & spread. As far as I understand the chemistry, no cold process can create those alloys, and without them, rust will penetrate under the coating, and the coating will flake away. But I am curious to see how this stuff works for you, and I am always looking for a better way to fight rust!
From what crown told me this is equal to hot dipping or better. I didn't think that at first. I guess that holds true, how do you dip entire ships and other marine equipment once it's built? That was the question he told me and that's where their product comes in. I'll figure this all out, all I need is the product, paint brush and a hammer (: