What is this "old smokey" AFC pin I just heard about. Where do I get one and how much $. I dynoed at 237 HP and 679 LB FT at Edge dyno days. I heard recently that someone is over 400 HP with a first gen. I wonder who that is and what they did to get that much power out of a VE pump. I want more power ;D. Im thinking of installing an inline pump system on mine. I have the complete set up. I have heard that the inline pump might hit my master cylinder. It looks to me that it will go but the fuel filter system from the second gen might hit the master cylinder. The fuel filter can be relocated. Any input or ideas?
Thanks
Frosty

 

Mike (Old Smoky) ran in the under 450 class and put down 446.2 with his 1st Gen. Can you say 500 RWHP.

As far as the P7100 pump goes it's not as simple as installing one. Piers is working on a "dumb" P7100 that will work on 1st Gens. I feel that once you put in a P7100 you're no longer running a true 1st Gen.

Bob

 

Are master cylinders rated for certain pressures/performance? Maybe you could swap a smaller one. They get run all the time with low fluid in them.

 

Bob ---- Do you know when Piers will have the p7100 for 1st gens developed? Also, will it work with 1st gen injectors? thanx

 

cethane
Check Piers web site if I remember correctly the "dumb" P7100 is either ready or close to it. You will still have to change the front cover out and make new injection lines. At this point I think 2nd Gen injectors would probably work. 1st Gen injectors use a 17MM head - 2nd Gens use a 19MM haed. I think bottom side of the injector will fit into the 1st Gen head.

Bob

 

How can a P-pump be dumb? All you need to run one is an accelerator linkage and a hand cable to shut off the fuel?

I guess that the new heads have a notch in them to clear the inline pump, but my understanding is that the new heads are listed as the replacement part for all '91 on engines.

It seems to me that if you have a new timing cover, pump, injector lines and injectors, you have everything that you need to make the truck work (especially if you have a manual x-mission).

Which I guess Bob just said.

Though if you can buy 370 injectors for under $400 USD, why would you pay to have custom injector lines made??

 

I have a semi complete 2nd gen engine. It has some block damage but other wise I have the pump, lines, head, front cover and all that. I will continue using my VE pump for a while, however I would stay with the VE if I could get more power without sinking a bunch of money in it. If I spend the cash then I may as well put the inline pump on it.
Bob, Im not to worried about wether my truck is still considered a true first gen or not. I just like how easy the first gens are to work on, heck I would but a 24 valve in it if I found one at the right price ;D.
Thanks for all the input

 

Hey Frostie,

You can get quite a bit more power out of the ol first gen, and have less money in it than with a P-pump conversion. The "Power Pin" you heard about is basically the equivalent to an upgraded cam plate in a P7100 pump. Meaning that like a cam plate, a stock pin in a first gen can be adjusted for more power, but the upgraded version allows for even more power, as well as better throttle response, and smoke control.

It really just depends on what you are looking for in the end. For a relatively low cost you could keep the VE and have around 350rwhp, or so. If you want significantly more than that a P7100 pump would help get you there. Oddly enough I don’t think I have ever heard of any big #'s for a p-pump first gen. ??? What is the most you guys have seen? You could just swap complete engines, then the sky is the limit. ;D



Mike

 

Wonder if the 1st gen head-flow would even allow full benefit of using the later pump?

 

I have a 93 that I just completed swapping the front gear case, replaced the diaphram lift pump with the piston type for the later engine (it just bolts right on), injectors and injection lines from a 92 190 horse industrial pump engine that uses the same head as the 93, and the P7100 injection pump for a 98 215 horse.

I too heard that the brake master cylinder would hit, but it does not, there is lots of room. On this one, I had to bend the coil of brake lines to clear everything, but that was simple. The only thing that had to move was the primary fuel filter, it is now a dual Racor on the inside left fender with flex lines from the lift pump and to injection pump. The original filter could have been moved up and over a bit and still cleared the brake booster.

The head has to have about a 3/8" notch cut in it above the P7100 overflow valve, not to install the pump, but to get the valve out for service at some time in the future. That took all of two minutes with a die grinder.

I use a choke cable to run the fuel shut-off, an ignition resistor to drop the voltage on one leg of the field on a Motorcraft regulator for the alternator, and threw away the PCM and all the excessively complicated solenoids and electrical crap.

I still consider it a first generation truck, as the hood still opens to expose the engine so you can work on the whole thing (unlike the newer trucks), and I have the far superior leaf spring front suspension instead of the problematic pogostick coil setup on the newer 4X4's.

The best of all, it now gets 23 mpg on the highway and has really great power. I am using a #10 TST plate slid full forward, a 3000 GSK, and the light spring from the AFC kit, an ATS exhaust manifold, and an HX40 on a 4" exhaust with no muffler. I had the pump recurved to build in 6 degrees of fueling lead, and the timing set to 15.5 degrees.

I did swap a school bus radiator in, to get enough cooling to handle the hard pulls on the mountains. The 93 has plenty of frontal area to handle the big radiator, just takes a bit of fitting and welding.

My next step is to install an Allison 542 with a retarder for the hills.

It sure beats a new truck, and is made in the USA!

 

By the way Frostie -- I was just looking at those numbers that you posted -- if you could keep your torque up to 3000 rpm, you would be putting out about 380hp. The VE pump should give you a pretty flat torque curve -- so I would expect to see you putting out close to 300hp with 679 lb/ft of torque ? If your peak hp was at 2500 rpm, your torque at that speed would have only been about 490 lb/ft. AT a higher rpm, it would be even less.

The numbers don't make sense to me :.

 

RCW, thanks for all the valuable information. Could you tell me what resistor You used for the regulator.
Redleg, I have a second gen head I could use. I Have a near complete 2nd gen engine. It has a damaged block. If I could fine a good block I would build a fresh 2nd gen and put it in my 92.
asilitch, I cant fine my printout at the moment, but your right about the dyno readings. It peaked almost immediately to peak torque around 1600 RPM then went down from there, the HP peaked much higher up the scale. I have tryed to tell people that my VE isnt keeping up but they keep saying " no it is still fueling due to my EGTs." My transfer pump never gets under 4 PSI. My boost will go to 37 PSI then slowly drop off to about 33 PSI near governed speed. That is why I keep thinking about going to an inline pump. they keep the coals to it. The VE can do quite a bit but I am almost tired of messing with it.
Thanks again for all the input. Now I have to decided what route Im going to go. ;D

 

Frostie -- if your torque is going down as rpms go up, then there is something wrong with your pump/how it is set up. You are certainly squirting more fuel through it than I have any experience with, but it sure sounds as though the volume of fuel injected per stroke is going down as the RPM's go up (after 1600) which shouldn't happen -- unless you are having a real air flow restriction problem, in which case the fuel would be delivered, but it wouldn't be burning well. At what rpm do you get peak boost? Are you blowing black smoke all over? Do you have a kerosene smell to your exhaust (could indicate significantly retarded timing)? The more I think about it, the less it makes sense . . .

Shows what I know :.

I guess you are going to do a P-pump conversion to go with that NV5600 . . .

 

Frostie - the resistor is the version from Mallory for use in marine gas engines to drop the ignition coil voltage. It works perfectly to control the alternator field voltage on the PCM controlled alternator. I got mine from a local speed shop. I suspect that any 12 to 6 volt dropping resistor would work as well.

Also, your first gen block is identical to the second gen scrapper you have. Just get the updated head gasket, or better yet, get a good solid copper gasket and the stud kit.

 

Redleg, I have a second gen head I could use. I Have a near complete 2nd gen engine. It has a damaged block. If I could fine a good block I would build a fresh 2nd gen and put it in my 92.

Some guys have all the luck. So all this fuel you plan on pushing.... twins in the future plans? 8)