OK..question is...

my understanding is that a Jake brake on our year trucks is only an option if you have a manual...

and they now have options if you have an 06-present brake for automatics...is this due to the new transmission or is it a turbo application. (if turbo, wouldnt it be worth it if you do the Turbo swap, comming soon over here!!!)

and what options are there for us 2nd gen guys running auto's...I love the idea of an exhaust brake, dont like transmission brakes...I use two versions on the Engine's we use at the FD. Tranny brakes seem to Jerk the tranny to much..it isnt very smooth on the deceleration of the the truck...

plus there isnt anything quite like the sound of a straight piped Jake Brake...

thanks

NCA

 

I never liked the sound of the exhaust brakes they make for the little cummins' or any other "little" diesel. Years ago, we had a UD tow truck with the exhaust "flapper" brake. One of the guys there decided to be cute and straight pipe it, thinking it would sound like a "big truck" with a 425 cat, etc. All in all, it sounded downright stupid, like someone was stuffing a pineapple (or an apple in this case) into the exhaust pipe. The muffler quickly went back on.

As far as the brake for automatics.. When my 94 was still an automatic, I had a manual switch to lock and unlock the torque converter clutch (it was constantly locking and unlocking for no reason at random times, prob a bad TPS, etc). All of the "kits" for the early ones just give you a fancy harness to do the same thing - keep the converter locked when turning on the exhaust brake. Most likely the reason why they can offer them for autos in the later years, is the transmissions are computer controlled, by a much more sophisticated ECU than mine, and I'm pretty sure they tap the ECU to do this (keeping the converter clutch locked during exhaust braking).

If memory serves me right, the early mechanical engines required you to change valve springs too.

 

so it sounds like it is possible with a Jake brake, to use on a 2nd gen auto, you just need a tq lockout???

or are you refering to a Transmission Brake, because I really dont like those.

NCA

 

Not a trans brake, but an exhaust brake. I know they make them for the older ones, you just have to keep that converter locked (they come with the wiring kit to do this). This as you can expect, this can be detrimental to the trans (not to mention mechanically over-revving the engine)if the driver doesn't know what he / she is doing.

As I mentioned, I do know earlier years NEEDED heavier valve springs - not sure if it was just the design of the particular exhaust brake (I don't see how they can be all that different from one another) or just certain year engines. I'm guessing that you would get some weird valve float and probably wreck your engine in the process.

The "pacbrake" is the one that tells you to use heavier exhaust valve springs or engine damage WILL result.

Read more here: http://www.pacbrake.com/PDF/L5913.PDF

I would definitely do your research on this. Brake pads are MUCH cheaper than a trans - or even worse, your engine.

 

The second gen trucks with auto's you will require a t/c lock-up kit (most of our kits come with the lock up controller)

As for valve springs the 12V engine came factory with 30 psi valve spring Why? who knows, Cummins gave the options code to upgrade the valve springs to 60psi as an option. All 24V engines came factory with the 60psi spring. You can use a fixed orfice exhaust brake set at 30 psi with the stock springs and a T/c lock up kit but retarding is half of what it really should be and worse on the automaitic compaired to the STD trans.

With respect to our PRXB you have to have the 60 psi springs as the brake is set to the max pressure.

No exhaust brake will sound like and engine brake regardless of strait-piping it or not. Reason being is we are closing the exhaust off and letting a little gas excape thus the hissing sound. With an engine brake we are openinng the exhaust valves during the compression stroke thus causing a noise rather then holding it back. At this time there is No engine brake availabe for the 5.9 or 6.7 cummins diesel

 

Thanks for clarifying that Harold. I was not sure "why" the exhaust valve springs were needed.

Does upgrading to the 60lb springs have any negative effects on the cam or lifters?

I really don't see why they don't just make a true engine brake for the little guys. Maybe because the benefits don't outweigh the cost (god only knows what a real set of jakes would cost), or there simply isn't enough "engine" there to supply ample braking.

I've been around many, many Cat 3406 rebuilds, and the jakes seem simple by design. I'm sure there has been some yahoo in his backyard garage who cracked out a keg of beer and went to work on the milling machine to try to make them!

The first time I saw a valve cover spacer from a 2003 on ebay, i thought someone had finally made one!

 

Part of it was the displacement of the engine and how much retarding would be available, the other was clearance i.e valve cover spacers, body lift (tight clearance) ect. Anything can be made but at what price to make it cost effective to the consummer and and manufacture.

 

[QUOTE=Mud_Duck_Diesel;2474265All in all, it sounded downright stupid, like someone was stuffing a pineapple (or an apple in this case) into the exhaust pipe. [/QUOTE]


That's why we called 'em "potato stuffers."

 

Hey thanks Harold, what you said makes sense...and correct me if I am wrong...your saying, 24v's came with the suggested 60# springs that are required to take full advantage of the retarding that your systems provide.

but at a cost with an auto...

am I reading this correctly????

and as well, there is a difference between, Exhaust brakes, Transmission brakes, and Engine brakes???

I was under the assumption that Exhaust and Engine brakes were the same, maybe I was mis-informed and Exhaust brakes and Transmission brakes are the same...or maybe they're all different....

ok Im confused again,lol...j/k

thanks

NCA

 

engine brakes operate the exhaust valves in the combustion chambers inside the engine. exhaust brakes just close a butterfly valve in the exhaust PIPE. the only transmission brake i'm familliar with is used in drag racing.

 

True Duner.. the only transbrakes I know of are on drag cars (cannot be used as a service brake) and the parking brakes you can put on the output shaft of a trans (which is something I am actually going to do on mine eventually because I keep getting my brake cables snagged on things).

 

Thanks to my boredom, I came across not one, but two other forms of brakes (these are for heavy duty applications, but worth mentioning). One is driveshaft mounted (would probably be hell on your ring & pinion) unit called a Telma, the other goes in the bellhousing called a "Brakesaver" for CAT engines. Like I said, these are for "big" trucks, but I found them interesting.

I couldn't find much on the Brakesaver, but found a few things on the Telma unit.

http://www.industrialautomatic.com/html/telma1.htm

 

I've driven a couple rigs with Telma brakes on them. Work pretty well but these you could not shut off completely only set them for less retarding effect. I never ran them in the slick stuff but always worried how well that would work.

 

Harold, maybe you can clear up my confusion for me on this engine brake thing. I know this thread is dragging on and on, but isn't that what it's here for?

You confirmed my thoughts about why they don't offer the "real" engine brake for the 6B (limited displacement, etc).

The Detroit Diesel 6V-53, a "little" 318 cid V6 (even the 3 & 4 cyl version can have them) can be fitted with "real" jakes, which makes me kind of curious about the displacement factor. I'm sure this is much easier due to DD's valvetrain, and I am comparing apples to oranges, but the displacement question is what's been picking at me.

Now, I'm not going to run out and swap my Cummins for a Detroit Diesel just because they have jakes.. or will I?

I'm sure if someone, somewhere, made one for the Cummins, us die-hard 6B fan would be glad to use cowl hoods, etc for clearance.

I've also been digging around Cummins tech info, and from what I have seen, this "can" be achieved with 2 separate jakes on the 6b, one on cyl 1,2,3, and one on 4,5,6. That is, if I am correct on the 6B's cam profile.

 

Your right this is why I'm here, now who's got the beer.

Each engine is diffrent in the mounting of the engine brake thats a simple answer, where it starts to get tricky is each engine also has a maximum cam loading that the engine brake can safely put on to it, the slave lash setting of the engine brake (amount of clearance between the exh valves, engine brake and timing of opening the exhaust valves is critical.) Because these settings and pressures are not public information all testing is trial and error

I'm sure if someone, somewhere, made one for the Cummins, us die-hard 6B fan would be glad to use cowl hoods, etc for clearance. A poll was done a while back on TDR asking who wants an engine brake for the dodge, I let the poll run about 3 months then anouther 6 and presented all the infomation to engineering and marketing only thing I could suggest is another poll. (oh and you not need the cowl hood)


What you have to be carefull of is the firing order and timing of the engine brake it's not really as simple as bolting and modding a 6v 53 brake up.