Here is a HP graph of the same injector above.<br><br>Don~

 

Ok, I appreciate your info, Don it helps to better understand your ratings vs HP. I realize, injector numbers between vendors ( stage 1,2,3 etc.) are not based on a uniform standard. So a consumer has to take it one step futher, comparing value with expected HP levels. This of course, would be same truck, same set-up, same day, same dyno. Assuming, this happened, ( I know that this is not scientific) but for marketing reasons, the following comparsions can be made.:

BD DD EDM

#1 60hp $399 #1 65hp $400 N/A
#2 80hp $499 #2 75hp $480 #2 100hp $ ?
#3 100hp $599 #3 100hp $560 #3 125hp $ ?
#4 120hp $699 SM 125+ $800 #4 150hp $ ?
#5 180hp $995 MM 150+ $1000 #5 160hp $ ?
#6 200hp $1195 UM 150+ $1200 N/A
#7 220hp $1395 N/A N/A

Now the above prices, are averages, and does not include any required core charges. In addition, BD's &amp; DD's are extrude honed, and EDM's are not. EDM have a special process. In addition, as a consumer, these would be the expected &quot;min&quot; HP levels if everything was equal.

Don, I would appreciate, you filling in the missing data, as I have no resourse, or dealer that I know of that resells your injectors that have a published price or sugguested retail.

Thankyou,

Steve

 

[quote author=Don M link=board=7;threadid=13738;start=0#129718 date=1050764889]<br><br>I dont have a 220HP innjector. I dont think there is such a thing for a 24 valve engine with a stock injection pump. We have tried everything in the arsenal to make over 160-170HP with a single charger and a stock VP44. <br><br>Don~<br><br>[/quote]<br><br>I dyno'd just a hair under 500HP with Buddha Power injectors. Just the injectors, no box. If you do the math that's a gain over 285 RWHP over the stock 215RWHP. Unfortunately they were not streetable.<br><br>Nathan (IDAHO CTD) you should of dyno'd close to the same with just the injectors.<br><br>You guys must remember that when pushing the HP envelope you are getting extremely close to hurting the engine. A daily driver is not only limited to the amount of smoke produced, but also how long before a rebuild. Last year the race truck raced only in the summer months (May - September). After the racing was done the engine needed a rebuild. Changing a set of injectors is easy, what about an engine.

 

Thats a good point Christian. I have always wondered at what HP or stress level do we begin to loose the reliability of the Cummins. There seems to be a lot of 24 valve trucks over 400 hp now.

 

Christian,<br><br>We too can build an injector that will make 500RWHP with no box, but this is not our objective. Nathans top HP number was <br>634RWHP with the 5's.<br><br>What was your top HP number? I heard around 638RWHP. Is this correct? <br><br>The idea behind what we do is to build an injector that can be streeted if needed. I believe Nathan just took a 400 mile round trip and got 17MPG. Ours can still make the same top number with the box on that the others can, but still be driveable back to the ranch, so to speak. They wont invade peoples noses with the raw unburned fuel smell that the large competition only injectors will. <br><br>I believe we took the technology a step further. With the 5's you can drive in bad weather with the box off at 390HP or you could, with twins even tow a moderate trailer. But still have the same top HP number available the large smokers have by turning the box on for draggin, dynoing, etc. <br><br>I see this as a profound improvement over what is currently available. Lower smoke , less soot build-up, and no wet-stacking at low engine speeds.<br><br>Don~<br><br><br><br>

 

Steve,

Comparing prices of the extrude honed injectors to an EDM modified injector is very difficult, but I will try.

Extrude honing is a fast process when compared to EDM modification. EDM modification can take as long as 14 hours in set-up time, eroding the holes, and inspection/rejection.
This does not include cleaning, assembly, pop testing, chatter testing, and leakage testing. This adds more labor time to the building process. Even being the owners of the EDM machine ourselves, we still have high machining costs.

Labor being the largest contributor to the overall added expense. If one was to look at the labor VS cost issue the EDM injectors are actually a better value.

A good example woud be an extrude honed injector at 600 bucks VS our EDM modified injectors at twice that price.

Labor for the extrude honed injector would be about 7 times lower than an EDM injector would. This added labor time explains the higher cost and actually shows a much lower cost per hour than any other injector out there.

We felt that as the group of Cummins diesel owners grew the total number of smoking trucks was increasing. Our idea was to offer a lower smoke level and to still retain a power level consistant with what everyone was familiar with.

Extrude honed injectors will always have the bulk of the market share because of the overall cost. Extrude honing, if done with care and not overly aggressive is a completely safe and cost effective method for increasing the fuel flow, but once the power levels begin to creep up the smoke levels do as well.

Of course the stage 4 and 5 EDM modified injectors do make smoke with a heavy foot. Its more of a function of the injection pumps rate of discharge curve and having a higher fuel to air ratio than stock levels.

I dont know if I can post prices or not. If ok, I will most certainly do so.

Don~

 

Christian,<br><br>I personally prefer to get a greater gain from a box that can be left off for daily driving as Don has explained. I have actually thought about contacting Edge about a more restictive defueling program on level 1-1. I think if they could restrict the fuel say 20-25% on 1-1 many people could run their race/dyno/sled pulling injectors every day if they choose to. I will probably try to get ahold of them next week about the possibility of this. The idea of not having to swap injectors all the time will appeal to many of the high hp 24v'ers out there.<br><br>Nathan

 

So from what I've gathered, anything above a Stage 3 isn't really that streetable from the point of smoke/fuel consumption/power. Right? I plan on running mid 12's at least and still be able to drive mine daily. WITHOUT swapping injectors. I want to be able to run mid 12's all the time. That way, if I need to, I can put certain cars in their places. Would I have to constantly run nitrous to keep the smoke down. Not a large shot, a little one.

 

wow, these sound like a whole heck of a lot of fun!

 

I bit the bullet and I believe I was one of the first to buy injectors from Don. I love they way they work and Don and myself have talked many times about how them work. He is also working on a stage 1 injector for me to try out which will be a new addition to his line with the power of a DD#2 and the smoke of a 275 injector! ;D

 

Is there anything in the fire for us 03 guys?

 

My partner in this mess with me purchased an 03 a few months back. At first he could not stand the thought of the injectors being uprooted from a brand new truck he was paying big money for every month. <br><br>Well it took me a little while, but he is now fully on-board to the tune of: he was the one who removed them at our shop three weeks ago for complete inspection and basic check out for modification. This is a guy who has always had a stock truck. Not a mod one, ever. <br><br>Interesting changes have taken place since the first 24 valve was released in injector technology. These newer nozzles are produced in Japan is Boschs high technology, state of the art manufacturing plant. The tight tolerances, and overall design is most certainly a step forward. We have already modified a single set and are currently testing. Some of the things that Bosch has done to get 305HP from such an injector is amazing to me.<br><br>Lawrence at Diesel Dynamics has already gone down the road on development of the 03 injectors and has made great progress with several power levels available. He would be the best person to contact on the 03 injectors at this time.<br><br>Don~<br><br><br><br>

 

[quote author=Idaho CTD link=board=7;threadid=13738;start=0#129326 date=1050646756]<br> Saturday I went to a local dyno event and ran 387hp with the box OFF and 634.5hp with the box ON. <br>[/quote]<br><br>Nathan,<br>What kind of an Edge Comp are you running? This box increases your HP by 247.5 HP? Something doesn't seem right, unless you have something very special from Edge. Most Comps increase HP by 115 to 130 HP. <br><br>Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[quote author=Big Bob link=board=7;threadid=13738;start=15#129896 date=1050815991]<br>[quote author=Idaho CTD link=board=7;threadid=13738;start=0#129326 date=1050646756]<br> Saturday I went to a local dyno event and ran 387hp with the box OFF and 634.5hp with the box ON. <br>[/quote]<br><br>Nathan,<br>What kind of an Edge Comp are you running? This box increases your HP by 247.5 HP? Something doesn't seem right, unless you have something very special from Edge. Most Comps increase HP by 115 to 130 HP. <br><br>Inquiring minds want to know.<br>[/quote]<br><br><br>Just a drag comp Bob. The injectors were made to give big gains using the boxes. Therefore there are easier to street. It's not all that uncommon for those with big single turbos or twins to see 200hp gains from a box. For instance, the last time Chipstein dyno'ed he gained right around 200hp from his box using PDR's new hx50. I guess using twins just pushed it up a little more ;D

 

[quote author=Don M link=board=7;threadid=13738;start=15#129744 date=1050771836]<br>Christian,<br><br>We too can build an injector that will make 500RWHP with no box, but this is not our objective. Nathans top HP number was <br>634RWHP with the 5's.<br><br>What was your top HP number? I heard around 638RWHP. Is this correct? <br><br>Don~<br>[/quote]<br><br>Nathan can you post your dyno slip? I would definitley like to look at it.<br><br>Don you know yourself that it is very hard to compare two different trucks on two different dynos. As you have said before, injectors only delivery 1/2 of what is needed to make power. Becasue of this we would be comparing turbo setups. Don't get me wrong, Nathan put down some great numbers.<br><br>Nathan, let me get this straight, you want edge to produce a box for you so you don't have to change the injectors all the time. The 45 minutes must be killing ya. <br><br>I would rather run dd2 or dd3 as a way to limit myself to all that power. Long term engine protection, and do you really need over 500HP for the street.???<br><br><br>